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Hey everybody, Almost 90 posts! If you feel like this discussion has been going round-and-round in circles, then you should be glad you weren't party to the 2012 and 2013 discussions -- the first back-and-forth we had on Fuwanovel about hosting localized games had >200 replies and, if I remember right, was deleted. I still have minor PTSD thinking about it. Let's all take a step back and look at this thread for a minute. We'll notice that there are many well-thought-out and well-presented arguments on both sides. We'll also notice that almost nobody has been swayed from one side to the other. Please allow me to state the obvious: This is a point of disagreement, and the two arguments aren't going to be reconciled no matter how long we go on. I tend to see this as a good thing: it means that I don't need to get emotional about the debate, and I don't need to take it personally on any level. I suggest everybody deescalate emotionally from the conflict. Let's start with Aaeru. People like to channel Aaeru (especially in this argument) because many remember and think of her as a sort of ancient, canonized, ultimate authority. I was around and an admin when the Fuwanovel policies were being decided, and Aaeru and I talked several times about this issue. On the one hand Aaeru was(/is) an extreme pirate: she hated copyright, hated the idea of intellectual property, and wanted to put all VNs up for pirating. She was a pirate through-and-through -- to the point of once sharing with me some Australian Pirate Party propaganda . Yet, on the other hand, as Fuwanovel administrators she and I spoke about this issue more than once, and every time we came to the agreement that it's in Fuwanovel's best interest not to host licensed games. Aaeru wavered from time to time, but the policy was solidified and codified when Aaeru's DC III project was crushed by Gangamamer. Some of you remember that happening. Aaeru was crushed and it took several weeks for her to recover. I remember the long conversation she and I had during the weeks she was away from the site, recovering. Anybody who knew Aaeru knew that she was a pirate to her core. Those that served with her as staff (we still have a few of them around), including myself (a co-admin), however know that she recognized and codified our current policy. Fuwanovel doesn't host licensed games. We generally drop the games within a few months of their announcement -- so long as progress on the translation is being made. Now I'm going to try and cut to the heart of the matter This specific topic has shown that it really doesn't matter how many good reasons we put down on paper for either side. Good arguments aren't going to persuade the other side off the wall. Time and time again this issue has put a real and painful strain on the community. I'm sad to say that I've lost multiple staff members to this issue -- many have resigned over it, and it kills me to say that some are threatening to leave over it again. This topic has repeatedly caused distress to the community. That is why we have a policy -- to prevent confusion for members and staff alike; and to give clear direction as new situations arise. That's the reason why we make them. One of my roles is to make sure we aren't forgetting about the foundations of the site, and ensure that we stay true to them. Fuwanovel's policy is that we don't host licensed games on the site. Brass Tacks I've been discussing the actual logistics of this issue with the staff and we're currently discussing how to proceed. If the decision is to abide by our longstanding policy, then I want to assure the community that the torrents are not going to disappear overnight. There will be notice about the plan and clear communication. I've read this entire thread twice, and I've spent a lot of time ensuring that I understand points raised both here and in the staff forums. I want to assure everybody that your voices are heard, and the staff and I will value further points raised here. At some point a decision must be made, however, and experience has taught me that there will be anger and hurt feelings regardless of what's chosen. I urge everybody to remember that we're all here for the love of a hobby, and that Fuwanovel's core is a respectful and friendly place to celebrate visual novels. This decision isn't the end of the world, and won't substantially change your Fuwanovel experience. I encourage everybody -- myself included -- to watch yourselves and your discourse and make sure we aren't being explosively hyperbolic in the aftermath.

Happy Birthday Mare!

How else can you explain this: (profiles: https://www.evolvehq.com/players/luch , https://www.evolvehq.com/players/steverowland )

I like how all my posts are in this topic. Miyako Is Love Miyako Is Life.

The face. Hopefully it's still got enough clucking fight in it left after that, because I'm not done with it yet...

To aru Majutsu no Index and Sword Art Online are very good. They both just got licensed in english, SAO volume 1 is out and Index volume 1 and SAO volume 2 are coming out sometime later this year. Baka-tsuki is probably the best website to read LN's on. http://baka-tsuki.org/

My brain is pretty much fried from working on a game all day. So before I go sleep, I'm curious if any of you would even be interested in what I'm trying to make? Here's the idea: a 2D turn-based rogue-lite dungeon crawler, where rather than having one character you have a bloodline of characters, sort of like Rogue Legacy. However unlike RL, your main goal is to rescue a princess from a dungeon to be able to continue your bloodline. Both you and the princesses have a set of genes, such as "Str" or "Int", which determine the stats of your descendant (higher values are more dominant). But while you can see both of your genes for a stat, for example your "Str" genes are 50/30, making your actual Str 50 because 30 is lower and therefore recessive, you can only see the princess' stats, ie you only know her dominant genes, when you pick a princess to rescue, so if her Str stat is 50 you'd only see her "Str" genes as 50/? when in reality she might be 50/20. So your descendant would have an equal chance of his "Str" genes being 50/50, 50/30. 50/20, or 30/20. That's the basic concept, does that sound interesting to you? And I'm going to make it regardless of what people say, so feel free to be brutally honest.

I thought it might be interesting to see what the Fuwa community likes or dislikes in studios. Feel free to list a few studios that you like or comment on studios that you believe are succeeding or failing. Here's a few that I have enjoyed in no particular order: Bones Production I.G Gainax Shaft and some Studio Deen

hello there.. im newbie here.. nice to meet you all

If that's an issue for you, don't volunteer.

My warmest birthday well-wishes on this Mareist of days!

honestly you're 100 percent right the system requires improvement cus me being an "Advanced Member"........is

Just look at how Luch celebrated Mare's birthday! https://forums.fuwanovel.net/index.php?/topic/896-birthday-thread/page-22#entry127622 Now that is love!

Sure, here's the original template. [a.pomf.se/tobttr.psd] I just think having that big empty space just for some text is too much. What if we did something like this? Putting the text for topics and questions above the space for images. edit: Or maybe something like this?

:|

The fact that the Miyako thread was allowed free reign to stray off of topic entirely without being shut down, and instead being allowed to continue to go off topic indefinitely by appending "Random Talk" to it's title did not sit will with many other Fuwanovel members and non-participants. In fact a while back there were several comments made by other members of Fuwa regarding closing the Miyako thread because they either don't like the fact that in their opinion it violates the forum rules of maintaining a topic, or they misguidedly believe that its continued existence is somehow a detriment to the Fuwanovel community at large. There are also several members who choose to post solely in this thread, and choose not post in other areas of Fuwa at all which has created a sort of schism between this thread, the members who frequent it, and the rest of Fuwanovel in general. To put it nicely this thread isn't very highly regarded by a vast majority of Fuwanovel. You still are don't worry.

Well I DO hate you if it's any help.

Even when it was the original developer that cut the H? From what I've been reading, Sekai Project isn't cutting anything; they're just using a version of the VN that has the H-scenes cut(and some additional content added).

I don't get it, DrKleiner, why would this be a bad idea? Sure, it'd be controversial as F, but it should make for an interesting discussion non-the-less, as long as everyone is able to keep it civil, of course.

I think the the status system needs to be reevaluated to be honest.

I recommend following this comprehensive flowchart. It explains everything needed to know before starting the game. Alternative is what makes the series the wonder it is so enjoy!

I always read the translations notes before I play. I remember them mentioning Extra was the worst game they've ever translated, so I was expecting something really horrible. Your experience is a really big shame though. Alternative is a sensational experience hitting all the high notes in human emotions. I just wished the original Extra cast in Alternative could be switched out with a more likeable cast from the beginning. Grisaia Luv Extra anyone?

I played on phone ~~ Boring on working, make it up =w=

Steins;Gate

Sorry i am Curious but at the same time don't want to know to much >.< I don't know anything about that actually. I don't remember that ever happening. Also, since I doubt that this is much of a spoiler, the ending scenes for each route in Unlimited is the exact same except with a different girl.

I highly recommend you to read Utsuro no Hako to Zero no Maria (or HakoMari for short!). HakoMari is the best work of fiction I've ever seen, not just the best light novel. You should definitely give it a shot, if you don't mind it being very dark. It's one of the very few things that I would call a masterpiece. The way the author writes really draws you into the deep and complex story. He loves to lead you in with clues and then surprises you at every turn.The characters are all fleshed out and very unique. You're gonna be in for a treat. MAL: http://myanimelist.net/manga/55215/Utsuro_no_Hako_to_Zero_no_Maria BakaTsuki: http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Utsuro_no_Hako_to_Zero_no_Maria EDIT: However, if you're just looking for ecchi and fan service, this is DEFINITELY not for you. Read this if you want interesting plot and characters.

Given our last discussion, why doget the feeling that this is a self-appreciation thread in disguise, Mr. Salty? Also... It's iodine that prevents goiters, not salt.

High School DxD <3

Good to see you Naomi-san :3 For the record, Rooke agrees with everything Naomi said

thats right

Regarding FanTL rights, I don't think I ever saw any kind of license on TLWiki or statement that could work as license, so no, technically they neither did "give" it to anyone, nor allowed to use it or keep it or redistribute it. Copyright requires explicit statements about any kind of transfer of rights. This research doesn't apply to undeveloped small-scale markets like translated VNs. Moreover music itself is entirely different business, with entirely different model of money flow.Piracy is doing very severe damage to VN sales, as known on example of MG releases. Once game is uploaded you-know-where, sales plunge to 0. If its not uploaded for several days, all that time sales keep high. So yes, people will buy VNs if no other options are available, and will pirate if pirating is possible, because of how this particular market is structured.

Especially in Amane's route. I can't blame anyone for doing this; I did the same thing. I will say that some routes have some foreshadowing for Alternative. Ayamine's in particular.

o shit we got a badass over here lol im just playing u two have fun

You'll get there. I never thought fcing hard songs would be easy, but now the first five are really easy for me, and I'm pretty bad compared to Ceris

HAPPY MARE DAY!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO OUR BELOVED MARE! Thank you Mare for all you do for us~ (and happy birthday to dale too, thank you for the fuwanovel seedbox )

Your posting has jumped the shark. You post nothing but ill-informed hate with no basis in reality. Funny how much you talk about how the community is against this when most of the posters in this thread seem pretty okay with it.

So, you guys still believe that download ≠ lost sale? Let me tell you something. There are two types of consumers - those who have the means to buy things and those who haven't. Those who have the means, will buy the game. Those who can't, will download it. It does not mean a lost sale, because those people weren't meant to be their customers in the first place. Only those with the means are ought to become customers. Now, you forget about simple thing that piracy = stealing, but in case of our current generation, we're not managing physical assets, but digital data and that data is an unlimited, renewable source. People who can't buy the game (yet) aren't stealing anything from the creators, nor publishers. There's no loss. They aren't doing any harm. Capiche? The thing you believe in is an intricate web of deceptions, created by the capitalistic dinosaurs to ensure their status quo in this modern age, which already changes way too fast for them to adapt. One can say that a visual novel, a book or a game isn't required to live (or survive, as Steve stated). Surely, they won't feed us, but at the same time they are the food for thought; they are the things which actually shape our lives and perceptions. Everyone has the right to access our cultural heritage in the same manner as everyone has the right to live. It's fine to have such a high esteem, but you could say that's also an luxury not everyone can afford.

I'm thinking of doing Meiya + Sumika and skipping the rest of extra... but I feel bad for this -_- I don't know...

I'm reading Muv Luv Extra for the first time I will do Meiya's route first then Sumika. and I'm still reading Umineko episode 3 but slowing down thanks to Hunter x Hunter

This is going to be long so take a seat. And don't you dare skimming through it or not reading any of the linked articles. 1. Misinterpretation of Fuwanovel mission statement I will start with this as it should be simple to explain. The portion of the mission statement that is used in the forum logo (and forum logo only) is just part of the whole mission. As you can notice on the main website, the main logo there actually describes the website differently. "Fan translated visual novels repository" And if you browse the website and visit the mission statement section, you can see the mission is actually different from what the forum logo says, it is: "Visual Novels for the World" As even included with the logo of the section: Following up in the mission statement, three main objectives are mentioned there There are three main objectives, they are: 1) Make visual novels popular in the West. 2) Promote fan translation 3) Create a community that celebrates fan translation and fan sharing. When the forums logo was made, only the first part of the mission statement was put there, because otherwise it would be too long. And many people misinterpret "West" as "America", where as it just states the general mission statement Visual Novels for the World but with different words. West in that case means outside of Japan (where Visual Novels already exist), so basically the rest of the world. What I am getting at is that nowhere on the whole website it states anything about promoting Localized copies, ensuring sales of Localized copies or celebrating success of Localization companies and commercial market. Instead it focuses on fan translation, fan efforts, fan sharing, fan creations and fan improvements to the original version. The only reason Fuwanovel doesn't share licensed versions was out of Aaeru's "good will". She decided not to include those releases as a gesture of friendliness to the companies. How those companies responded to this good will and attempts to build a friendly relationship is a different matter entirely. 2. Piracy vs Sharing The whole word "Piracy" is just wrongly used since the beginning of the internet. If you imagine piracy in a pirate movie, they invade a ship and deprive people off their possessions. But in the case of games, movies, music - that is never the case. "Piracy" on the internet just stands for "Sharing", but people for some reason needed a word that sounds evil. Instead of taking away possessions of someone else, you are being offered a shared copy of what someone already has. You are being offered a flower seed out of unlimited supply to grow your own flower and ultimately build your love for flowers to the point you want to support the people who originally imported these flowers from different parts of the world. Aaeru and Fuwanovel was always for "Sharing" and as so you could say also for "Piracy" since they are the same thing. The stuff about flower seeds and building love for flowers is much better explained in the "Spreading culture does not decrease supporters. It increases it." part of fuwanovel About section. Please read the whole article if you haven't already done so. You can notice there the part of why true fans pay money. "Your labour IS the scarcity not the copies, for it cannot be pirated." And are you going to argue that it doesn't work? Even the mentioned Steins;Gate release says exactly the opposite, many of the fuwanovel staff bought the copy even though we still direct people to the shared copy. It is not because they had to buy it, they wanted to buy it, partially thanks to the fact that the game is popularized thanks to Fuwanovel. The article mentioned above wasn't directed at localization companies however, it was mainly directed at Japanese developers and why Aaeru decided to share the copies with the improvements of additional language version. You can even see similar examples here of people buying a Japanese version if they liked the fuwanovel copy. I can even say it for myself - I am struggling to make a living and pay rent, but after finishing Iroseka (shared torrented version), I became true fan of FAVORITE, It is one of my dreams that once I solve my situation and get some more money, I will not buy some expensive food or a car or any other pleasure like that, I will buy the games with all the stupidly overpriced little perks in the box, because I want the companies to make more of it. But in the meanwhile, all I can really do is spread the word of how good the games are, link people to the Fuwanovel Hoshimemo page, praise Iroseka and make more people try to play it in Japanese now, make more people interested in translating it for even wider audience - because I know that I can find people who will fall in love with those games just like I have and maybe they will have the funds to afford the support to the companies. I was able to talk to a Japanese FAVORITE fan yesterday in pso2JP, uniting together we can get more and more fame to the company that deserves it, even though the Japanese person can buy the game with earnings from an hour or 2 of his time, and all I can do is spread the word. But I am willing to spread the word for many hours, writing reviews and comparisons, because that is all I can spare, my time. If I haven't "pirated" the games in the first place, I would never be able to do this, I would never be able to extend the fandom because I would never be able to play the game. 3. Localized releases vs Fan TL releases So as mentioned above, we are still trying to carry Aaeru's good will of not sharing localized copies, a good will even after all the things the companies have done to her in response. The good will might weaken in times of controversy we can sometimes see, but since we believe that evil should not be repaid by evil, that eye for an eye is just the wrong approach, we still continue this good will and are not sharing English licensed releases of games. But there was never such will for Japanese releases, as with those, following the points mentioned in point 2 of this post, the creator will have more success in building fandom and true fans. And as such we are sharing Japanese copy of Planetarian, a game Aaeru added to the website, improved by a collective fan effort many years ago. It is the same version a lot of you (Including me) were able to enjoy for free, thanks to the original fan effort and Fuwanovel sharing service. And the same version, translated out of passion for the game, shared between fans of Key to make their games even more popular. Without this fan copy and all the other fan translated Key games, most of us would not be able to enjoy them. Without the effort of fan subbing, lot of people would not be able to enjoy Key anime. And without that the English Key fandom would not become what it is today, a fandom that is able to organize a giant project like Key 15th Anniversary Letter. A project that will even be collaborating with Sekai project to deliver their letter, signifying their dedication. A project full of TRUE fans who will buy the official Sekai release even though they have probably played Planetarian several times. And you are asking us to simply remove all that from existence so only you and other people in the past were so privileged to enjoy it for free and become a fan. That new people cannot join the club anymore, become a fan of a free version to later potentially evolve into a true fan supporting Key by buying figs and games all over the place, just like many Fuwanovel members do. And the same goes for Grisaia, we are sharing a Japanese version of the game improved by fan translation, a version that was able to build pretty big fandom of its own. A favorite game of many thanks to the free fan translation and the free availability on Fuwanovel (among other places). A fandom built thanks to a collaborative effort of not only translators and other people on the project, but also seeders on the torrents, page creators, article writers, even people just saying "I loved this game" in a public place - all those efforts however important or hard they might be created what Grisaia true fandom today is and as such tons of them will be able to afford the steam release, while others can keep sharing the word and original fan project for free, to get even more people on the board to be able to spend their money, time or effort or combination of those to further support their beloved game. And in the end by removing the original fan translation patch you are not only depriving newcomers of things you were able to have yourself, depriving them of the sun that used to shine on you. But you are also undermining all the efforts of the people trying to share and make the game as popular as possible with the means available to them. Some people have money to import the game from Japan or later buy the game on Steam, some people only have words. But power of the words might in the end turn out more powerful than power of money. By sharing a VN and making more people be interested in it and talk about it, you are essentially trading words for words - effort and words of the original creator for the good words and effort of review writers or simply people telling their friends to play it. And in the end this trade will result in a profit for the creator, as more and more people will be interested in the words the creator has to say in their games, more and more people will want more of those words and become a true fan, patron and supporter, trading their currency for more words. 4. Fuwanovel as a negative profit website Since this was already said, I will keep it short. But Fuwanovel, unlike many other sharing websites such as nyaa, generates ZERO profit of any of this. Quite the opposite, running website and fees connected to this actually costs money and we rely on charity of people, paying their money to host and run the website, offering their seedbox so we can spread the game torrents as quickly as possible. And even the times when many of us together collected the money to buy the forum software, with whatever we could put aside at that moment. And still there is not a single ad on the website, not a single cent was generated on Fuwanovel and that is how it is going to remain. Efforts of all the people working on maintaining the website, work put into coding and additional features, forum moderation, creating new pages for newly released projects, maintaining good upload speed by seeding - all those efforts are done with 0 compensation and 0 profit. And as such everyone can expect everything on Fuwanovel be equal to everyone, whether you came a year ago or now, you will have access to the same games for the same equal price, 0. That's because 0 is the ONLY price equal to everyone in the world and even though $1 might seem equal to all Americans, it is not equal to everyone in the world, only 0 is. And as the mission statement goes, Visual Novels for the World.

By offering a pirate version, we let more people who otherwise wouldn't be able to play them actually play those games, which increases the number of fans of that particular series which increases the number of people who will buy the game for support and the game's merchandise. If we hadn't hosted grisaia, a lot of people here wouldn't buy grisaia in the first place, for example. Those who pirate it won't start buying the games because we stopped hosting them, but hosting them can have some positive effects. I'm only quoting Steve here, but: "We are not a promotional website trying to help licensing companies make their money, if that was the case we could have ads on the website and earn tons of money ourselves, just like Nyaa and many other VN/Anime sharing websites do - and when I tell you that the money wouldn't be bad at all even if split between all staff, I mean it. But we don't do that because we are not greedy bastards and understand that the goal is larger than making money (I prefer my struggling to even make a living and pay rent than doing something like that - maybe it makes me a stupid person but at least I feel good about myself xD). And the higher goal is making more people PLAY the games, NOT BUY them. By taking the already available releases away from people we would be doing exactly the opposite. There is no reason to bring up the arguments for why many people cant possibly ever afford to buy the official release. In my opinion fuwanovel should bring the more positive light to the world that not everything is about money. Encourage fan translators to translate for free, make them feel like sharing the game they read and loved with others for free. Let everyone try and play those games however they want, everyone have equal changes to get into discussion about them. Not be like what elementary school used to be, when those rich kids were discussing their Playstation consoles and all that most families couldn't afford. Or like that high school where people were discussing their gifted motorbikes that most of us couldn't afford. And so fuwa is different, everyone no matter where they are from or what school they attended can enjoy the same games and discuss the same stories. You can be a Chinese guy with some old PC connecting through a hole in a school firewall (although in that case they would probably choose from the chinese sites and translations, but we've had few chinese talking here on forums) or you can be a doctor in the US or you an be an average studying east European, maybe starting some new jobs. You can be whoever and still receive the same treatment here and same free games as everyone. And same way you can be any of those and try to help to spread the games to more people, fan translating the titles from Japanese for more and more people to enjoy." So yeah, I'm against removing those torrents. You may still be able to convince the people who deal with the main page, though.

*puts on the sunglasses* DEAL WITH IT

A post from VNDB's Shinkiss discussion page: