GLM4475 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 The qualities I'm pointing out are: 1. Righteous 2. Brave 3. Strong 4. Straightforward 5. Responsible & dependable 6. Honest 7. Clever 8. Humble 9. Caring 10. Kind I know it's hard (or maybe impossible) to find those qualities in real life, but that's where stories are created. So, why is it rare for VNs (or stories as general) protagonist to have these qualities? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BookwormOtaku Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 I made a response to (it was on Patreon so you won't find it on youtube) that's kind of similar to this topic-wise: I think part of the reason is because in more recent popular stories lawful good (or equivalent) type characters are deconstructed so much it's become almost expected for them to be either so extreme in the lawful aspect you're left wondering where the line between lawful good and lawful evil is supposed to be or well meaning but ultimately ineffectual and/or naive. Here are some examples: 1) Name anyone from Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones that falls into lawful good that isn't (up to the latest point in the books) dead or in any position to accomplish anything positive? 2) I doubt you'll find very many in the Code Geass fan base who like Suzaku more than Lelouch (though it's debatable if the latter ends up much better off in the end). 3) There's this trope:http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PoliceAreUseless 4) Heck I even just played a VN that outright sees lawful good as the worst alignment choice next to chaotic evil:http://i.imgur.com/aqRzD1J.jpg Another thing to consider is seeing the popular position for a hero is as a rebel or an underdog the term "lawful" probably does make one think of anyone with that alignment trate as one who would be aligned with the evil/dumb status quo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nosebleed Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Because those are incredibly boring and generic traits, especially if they're all together in one character. They remind me of Akihito from Comyu. Not to say a character can't be nice or caring, but basing an entire character off of some idealistic perfectly nice prince charming is really meh. These traits should be secondary, not primary. Abyssal Monkey, krill, narrlocke and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwd2 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 looks like a pretty generic list of broad terms that sadly half of vn protagonists are centered around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solidbatman Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Because otaku cant self-insert into any of these traits Gibberish, Mr. Meogii, Zenophilious and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eclipsed Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Princess Evangile's Masaya has pretty much all of those traits, except straightforward probably. Choosing b/w Rise & Chiho too hard for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flutterz Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Because otaku cant self-insert into any of these traits solidbatman, Fred the Barber, Zenophilious and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nosebleed Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Am weeb, can confirm am wicked, cowardly, weak, corrupt, irresponsible, dishonest, dull-witted, a braggart, uncaring, and mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLM4475 Posted May 9, 2015 Author Share Posted May 9, 2015 I made a response to (it was on Patreon so you won't find it on youtube) that's kind of similar to this topic-wise: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nosebleed Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 I prefer an interesting story, not a predictable protagonist that only knows how to be kind. It has nothing to do with wanting an evil protag, just a protag that's not centered around being nice and kind all the time, that gets boring really fast. Oh, you're that worst of a creature, eh? I hope you were only joking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flutterz Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 I hope you were only joking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nosebleed Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 I'll also agree that most of the protags that follow these patterns are self insertion characters with little to no personality, or a really vague one, just so you can project your image onto them. So they're not exactly righteous as much as they're "doing what would be socially accepted the most in that scenario": The reason i say it gets boring is not because i think being nice is bad, but because when you're reading a story you need something to engage you, and a character that is only nice and righteous all the time eventually dries out because it's just so repetitive, it's like they're machines with nothing more to them than a program that forces them to be kind to everyone and never deviate. I just think it's not a great story element. Even male characters in Shoujo manga have their flaws, because otherwise they wouldn't really be human would they? I'm not asking for deep character deconstructions, you can have a nice guy as a main character, but don't make him perfect in every way, give him some other qualities and a proper, less stoic personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuki Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Sound like a perfect human being. And a perfect human being does not exist, that's why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InvertMouse Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Am weeb, can confirm am wicked, cowardly, weak, corrupt, irresponsible, dishonest, dull-witted, a braggart, uncaring, and mean. Flutterz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulless Watcher Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 That's how you get the ladies, you be a complete dick to everyone, but if you treat a gal well she will see the difference in treatment and translate that difference into love so the protagonist can bang her....... that's how love works, right? In all seriousness though I'm pretty sure nearly every VN protagonist, at some point in the story, have several of these and even the dark rapists in the fncked up nukiges are usually brave, intellegent, strong, and straightforward to some degree. If you are asking why a vn protagonist dosn't have all ten of these at the begining of the story, well you gotta realize why we need to have kyrptonite in Superman comics. Beauty and... well... anything intersting stems from flaws. Picture a world where all rooms are empty, well lit, and painted white; pretty boring right? If you add in furniture, pictures, a bookself, and other things to a room; all of a sudden it becomes interesting there is a story there. You can tell a little bit about the person living there from the books they read, how expensive their property is, and how clean it is...... you know what I should have just used the blank canvas vs. painting metaphor. Anyways my point is there is a reason kryptonite weakens Superman, no one would care about a story of a perfect being. People all have flaws and that is what makes them interesting, if we had a story focusing on a person with zero flaws that would be boring and impossible to relate to. suikashoujo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexZandria Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 I don't think that much protagonist have ALL these traits, not only one. If you list out any 10 traits you're not going to find many protagonists who fit them all. Characters aren't so cute and dry. You're going to find many characters who have 5 or 6 or 7 or even 8 of these traits, but the chances of finding a bunch of protagonists who claim to be all 10 are slim. It's not just because of the specific traits you chose lazy, always tired, easily bored, careless, clumsy, soft spoken, introvertive, humble, forgiving boastful, loud, energetic, athletic, extrovertive, decisive, headstrong, narcissistic, cheerful, manipulative cold-hearted, intelligent, distant, resourceful, quiet, charming, eloquent, hot tempered, spiteful, self-centered I could go on and on mixing up lists of 10 traits. You're not going to find a perfect 10 that is showcased in many protagonists. You can't really complain when other users list characters that possess a fair deal of these traits because they don't fit a couple of the ones you listed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalor Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 It is quite sad that people now think someone like that boring, so you prefer chaotic world with lots of people only think of themselves and do what they want. If I wanted to read a story with a character with all the positive attributes you listed earlier I would just read the New testament Bible. You said that "It is quite sad that people now think someone like that boring", but truth be told people always found those characters boring. To use classical literature as an example, the reason people enjoyed and continue to enjoy stories like Paradise Lost (where Satan is the main protagonist) or Dante's Inferno, is because chaotic characters/settings are simply more interesting. krill and babiker 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidA. Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Even male characters in Shoujo manga have their flaws, because otherwise they wouldn't really be human would they? Sound like a perfect human being. And a perfect human being does not exist, that's why. Pretty much what I was going to touch on. I haven't read an awful lot of VNs, but in terms of storytelling a "perfect" character is bland, unrelatable, and inhuman. I'd very much prefer to read a story where the character actually has flaws. This spans across all types of mediums; movies, novels, VNs. I think when you lose the realism, that's when it becomes uninteresting. Stories consist of tension, and with perfect characters you lose a lot of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krill Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 this is the same reason superman is not engaging, he has damn near every power you can think of in some form or another and his only flaw is the rarest mineral on the planet? it don't take a lot to be a hero when thats the case, there's no true danger no real sacrifice you pay to be the hero. frankly even his writers realized this with time and added his weakness to magic and his ties to loved ones being used against him just to keep it interesting as well as retconing some of his more bizarre powers. the point im making is when you give a single protag too many solid good features and lil to no negative features he becomes boring, predictable,and hard to relate to or invest in. humans have always loved the underdog, the disenfranchised and heavily flawed over the perfect character since them winning or loosing feels like a greater impact. as a exorcise ask your self, what is more intriguing watching a child born to a old money wealthy family continue his legacy or a poor migrant child work his way to becoming a self made billionaire? babiker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elairiah Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) Something. Edited February 11, 2018 by Elairiah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clephas Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 The qualities I'm pointing out are: 1. Righteous 2. Brave 3. Strong 4. Straightforward 5. Responsible & dependable 6. Honest 7. Clever 8. Humble 9. Caring 10. Kind I know it's hard (or maybe impossible) to find those qualities in real life, but that's where stories are created. So, why is it rare for VNs (or stories as general) protagonist to have these qualities? A few things. Very few characters embody all those qualities, but a great deal embody at least two of them... in particular the caring, kind, and straightforward ones tend to be common in VNs (so much so that I'm sick of them). Understand a good protagonist is generally flawed, and someone who by some miracle manages to embody all those qualities isn't even human, much less a good character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonderfullyevil Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 A character like that is not only boring, but he's pretty much going to fix conflicts easily. I cannot see him encountering any problems. And really, no conflict=no plot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Meogii Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Because otaku cant self-insert into any of these traits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenophilious Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Because otaku cant self-insert into any of these traits Sovereign1612 and Narcosis 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nashetania Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Well I don't really mind those traits on protagonists. I mean, if I wanted protagonist to be realistic (or whole story) why would I read VNs in first place? I read VNs to have fun/to chill out and that's when the perfect protagonists/setups do the work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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