The impact of H-scenes on Visual Novels

[Zenophilious]

If possible, could an option be added to the first question for "mixed impact"?  I can't decide, since it really depends on the VN as a whole.  If it's a good VN with h-scenes, even people that don't like h-scenes will read it anyway, yet if the plot is meh, most people won't touch it unless they want fap material or they're into a certain fetish that particular VN has.

 

I don't get why certain people are calling others perverts; most people that read VNs are labeled as perverts because we read VNs, so why would you feel the need to use that same negative epithet?

 

Everyone that disagrees with me? not at all, just those who are perverts, and as you can see lot of them are not denying it, and some are even calling themselves perverts.

Do you think that you're in a crusade against perverts or something?  If you watch anime or read manga and VNs, and then hang out with people of the same interests, odds are there's going to be some "perverts".  I don't go around labeling everyone that's watched porn a pervert, simply because it's a waste of my time and it's antagonistic.  You're also derailing the thread so you can basically have a pervert witch hunt.

[Okami]

Fact. You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

 

Maeda Jun gave his own thoughts on what he aimed for when writing each Hscene of Tomoyo After in the visual fan book.

 

Taking Little Busters! EX：

Komari and Midori's Hscene are the traditional Key wtf bad end.

Kudo's Kurugaya, first Haruka, Mio, Saya, Sasami, and Rin are normal making love between lovers.

Second Haruka and Kanata add to their character and plot.

 

Now take Sakuya 18+ version. Of 4 Hscene, 3 are plot important. And the only reason the 4th isn't is because it's tucked away in an after story.

 

What Clephas said. Also please stop pushing your own morality onto other people. And please don't project your own values onto a people who highly prized Shunga.

 

Sounds like sunk cost fallacy.

 

You can lie to yourself all you want, but you can't lie me I know that you know that what you are saying is just an excuse. I mean what writer could possibly want to turn pure love story and girl so shy that goes all red from just holding hands into a porn and a slut in a porn, or to add porn scene in a middle of a final battle. and beside, normal making of love between lovers? we are not talking about  3D people here we are talking about 2D characters who are pure and unlike 3D people don't go fucking around and dating like eating breakfast.

[nohman]

 

Okay people, I know this is a hard sell since this is the internet, but can we steer this conversation away from the toxic turn it has taken? This is obviously an area of great contention, meaning it is a worthwhile discussion topic. HOWEVER, wouldn't it be better to talk about h-scenes in context of the industry, how they're used and misused, and our personal feelings on them without derisively calling each others perverts and otherwise continuing to flog a dead horse? At some point (lol not really, I know), you've just got to concede that your opinions diverge and that nothing productive will happen if you continue with specific threads of the conversation.

[Giki190]

Okay people, I know this is a hard sell since this is the internet, but can we steer this conversation away from the toxic turn it has taken? This is obviously an area of great contention, meaning it is a worthwhile discussion topic. HOWEVER, wouldn't it be better to talk about h-scenes in context of the industry, how they're used and misused, and our personal feelings on them without derisively calling each others perverts and otherwise continuing to flog a dead horse? At some point (lol not really, I know), you've just got to concede that your opinions diverge and that nothing productive will happen if you continue with specific threads of the conversation.

Alright, H-scenes makes novels more popular. Point, blank, period. If I see two VNs said to be pretty much on the same level, i'm going to go with the one who has H-scenes.


On the pure fact that it's just more content there, some H-scenes are integrated into the story and actually play a part to show development of romantic relationships, it's not all bad.

 

[Parallel Pain]

You can lie to yourself all you want, but you can't lie me I know that you know that what you are saying is just an excuse.

Ah I see. When presented with counter evidence all you can do is close your eyes, cover your ears, and yell lala.

 

I mean what writer could possibly want to turn pure love story and girl so shy that goes all red from just holding hands into a porn and a slut in a porn, or to add porn scene in a middle of a final battle.

One who is an adult and mature enough to understand that sex is both an accepted and important part of life. And who defines "pure love story" as including the lovers having sex. There's a reason why how often/good the sex is a question in marriage counseling: It's actually important.

But if you want to call people like Maeda Jun, the TetraScope team, and I perverts, go right ahead.

 

Seriously we have tonnes of creators of non-18+ stuff making 18+ doujin of their own creation. Why's it so hard to accept creators of actual 18+ content actually did it themselves?

 

we are not talking about  3D people here we are talking about 2D characters who are pure and unlike 3D people don't go fucking around and dating like eating breakfast.

"How dare you defile my waifu". Lol

[babiker]

This thread had so much potential, yet here we are again... Alas, the inevitable was inevitable. No one can say I didn't try, right?

 

WARNING: This is not another "you're all perverts" thread. Please keep things civil. 

 

Why can nothing gold ever last...

 

 

 

 

Okay people, I know this is a hard sell since this is the internet, but can we steer this conversation away from the toxic turn it has taken? This is obviously an area of great contention, meaning it is a worthwhile discussion topic. HOWEVER, wouldn't it be better to talk about h-scenes in context of the industry, how they're used and misused, and our personal feelings on them without derisively calling each others perverts and otherwise continuing to flog a dead horse? At some point (lol not really, I know), you've just got to concede that your opinions diverge and that nothing productive will happen if you continue with specific threads of the conversation.

 

 

Yes please.

 

Also, 

 

If possible, could an option be added to the first question for "mixed impact"?  I can't decide, since it really depends on the VN as a whole.  If it's a good VN with h-scenes, even people that don't like h-scenes will read it anyway, yet if the plot is meh, most people won't touch it unless they want fap material or they're into a certain fetish that particular VN has.

 Well pffft, I'm not sure how that'll effect the poll as a whole... But I'll add it anyway

[Chronopolis]

Hmm, the actual topic is interesting so I'll just plow on ahead.

 

Why do nukiges exist?

-fappers may prefer the text + voice + sprite/cg interface of visual novels as it is more immersive.

-the long play time gives a chance for the fapper to grow attached the the characters, resulting in a different experience.

-a few people play nukige (mostly?) for entertainment value, but that's beyond the point

 

Why do people (still) play all-ages nakige/charage-VN's?

-they enjoy becoming attached to and spending time with the characters

 

Why developers explicitly include H-scenes in non-nukige games?

-some of the people who enjoy becoming attached to the characters now would like H-scenes with their herione. I mean doujinshi (derivative) porn is practically the same concept.

-for people who bought the story and get bored of it and are still interested in random porn, they are included anyways.

 

What if most VN's didn't have H-scenes?

We'd have a lot more resources to devote to CG's. Imo, that wouldn't improve VN's THAT much, unless artistic directing improved as well. Well, it would certainly allow for scenarios and settings which are more CG-demanding. That's actually pretty important and a shame.

 

In terms of the western market, it would definitely increase the marketability of these games. But many of the people interested in VN's still do so because they enjoy becoming attached the heriones, and as the TL'd hentai/doujinshi industry and manga gamer's finances show, the western fandom is no less horny than our Japanese counterparts.

 

It's hard to speak generally, but if a VN wanted to use an H-scene for development purposes, there would be no need to include them on the other herione routes. Now, since a quota is demanded, I suppose writers will incoporate them as best as they can, to the point where the fact that the two characters have sex isn't as disruptive to the story as the fact that the VN explicitly shows the scene, for the purpose of titillation. Honestly, for this, the skip button. If you are purely talking about immersion and not outrage at the existence of fan-service in this world, 8 seconds of skip isn't bad.

 

Now, for the topic I actually wanted to talk about: https://forums.fuwanovel.net/index.php?/topic/7578-idealizationappeal-of-heriones-in-vns/

[Okami]

Ah I see. When presented with counter evidence all you can do is close your eyes.

 

One who is an adult and mature enough to understand that sex is both an accepted and important part of life. And who defines "pure love story" as including the lovers having sex. There's a reason why how often/good the sex is a question in marriage counseling: It's actually important.

 

Seriously we have tonnes of creators of non-18+ stuff making 18+ doujin of their own creation. Why's it so hard to accept creators of actual 18+ content actually did it themselves?

 

"How dare you defile my waifu". Lol

 

Interesting how you accuse me of closing my eyes while that is all that you who defend H-scenes do.

 

And no sex is not such a big important part of life, nor pure love has anything to do with sex, it is actually opposite sex can only kill pure love, you can't have pure love and sex. Most 3D marriages have noting to do with true love, once again we are talking about true love stories here not 3D casual relationships.

 

Because if they wanted to make 18+ they would be making nukiges or porn not story driven VNs. Not to mention that like I said in 90% of VNs it is completely obvious that they are forced into story witch you who defend H-scenes always ignore, and as you say close your eyes to this fact.

[Cyrillej1]

Here we go with the "you're a pervert, I'm not" thing again...

[Alucard]

Is it already that time of year again for this debate to come back up?

[Rose]

I sometimes like sex scenes being included, as they might help deepen the bond between the characters. I believe that Katawa Shoujo for example, is definitely better with the h-scenes in general. While I didn't really cared about the one with Shizune, since I didn't really felt any big meaning in it nor it was anything specially well-written or visually appealing, I simply loved one of Lilys scenes. That surely made me give KS more points than I would otherwise, even if the other ones weren't that good for me. It's not always, but sometimes it's possible to find some legit h-scenes out there, which enough for me to support their existence. Unfortunately, I already voted on the first question, so I won't be able to vote for the "mixed impact" option.

 

I think the whole having sex blind for Hisao to understand her better was amazingly interesting, not for the fetish, but the meaning it held in that romance in specific was really great.

 

And no sex is not such a big important part of life

 

What?

 

Because if they wanted to make 18+ they would be making nukiges or porn not story driven VNs. Not to mention that like I said in 90% of VNs it is completely obvious that they are forced into story witch you who defend H-scenes always ignore, and as you say close your eyes to this fact.

 

You are aware that you are the huge minority who literally hates and despises h-scenes, right? If so, I think it's understandable for you that the writers might actually be the ones who chose to make them, as the "perverts" as you say, are the overwhelming majority in this world. I'm not an expert when it comes to VN writers, but I believe it's very likely that many of them choose out of free will to add h-scenes to their works.

[Flutterz]

This thread had so much potential, yet here we are again... Alas, the inevitable was inevitable. No one can say I didn't try, right?

The problem with adding a huge disclaimer asking people to stay civil is that people who ignore others' posts will ignore that too.

 

Most of my opinions have already been posted by other people, so I'll keep this short. VNs started out as even more H-scene based than they are now, and as long as the majority of sales in Japan relies on the market that wants H-scenes, all-ages VNs will continue being the exception and mostly created by companies that have already made a name for themselves through 18+ VNs. It's hard to say what sort of impact H-scenes have on the medium as a whole because this would be a very different medium without them. Having the option to disable H-scenes is nice, both for people who don't want them and for people who do generally want them, but maybe they don't want surprise tits on their screen when others might be looking, but it's not that big of a deal. I'd most likely read a good VN with H-scenes first because even if they are bad I can just skip them.

[Parallel Pain]

And no sex is not such a big important part of life, nor pure love has anything to do with sex, it is actually opposite sex can only kill pure love, you can't have pure love and sex. Most 3D marriages have noting to do with true love, once again we are talking about true love stories here not 3D casual relationships.

So you're not alive because your parents had sex? Are you a robot?

And what science defines pure love and say sex kills it? Or which school of philosophy are you following? Care to explain why that philosophy must be true, or demonstrate that VN authors follows such a philosophy?

 

Because if they wanted to make 18+ they would be making nukiges or porn not story driven VNs. Not to mention that like I said in 90% of VNs it is completely obvious that they are forced into story witch you who defend H-scenes always ignore, and as you say close your eyes to this fact.

Ah yes. Let's just ignore the fact that Maeda Jun described writing Hscenes for Tomoyo After. And that SAO has the infamous 16.5. And NGNL's author drew his own Sora x Shiro doujinshi.

In fact, if it's so "obvious" why don't you conduct a literary analysis of grammar styles, sentence structure, and vocabulary to proof that those scenes are written by someone else?

[Okami]

So you're not alive because your parents had sex? Are you a robot?

And what science defines pure love and say sex kills it? Or which school of philosophy are you following? Care to explain why that philosophy must be true, or demonstrate that VN authors follows such a philosophy?

 

Ah yes. Let's just ignore the fact that Maeda Jun described writing Hscenes for Tomoyo After. And that SAO has the infamous 16.5. And NGNL's author drew his own Sora x Shiro doujinshi.

In fact, if it's so "obvious" why don't you conduct a literary analysis of grammar styles, sentence structure, and vocabulary to proof that those scenes are written by someone else?

 

Actually no I personally am born with artificial insemination, but yes most people are born from people having sex, but that doesn't make it a big part of life, sure for people who like sex and who are addicted to it it is big important part of life, just as for junkies drugs are big important part of life but for those who aren't it's not, it's just a most popular means of reproduction and noting more.

 

And definition of pure love is that it has to be pure as opposite of dirty or sexy/perverted so if it has sex it's not a pure love any more. It is a simple logic and a common sense, you can't deny it if you know what pure loves means.

 

If some writer did write H-scenes by his own free will it's for an easy money not for increasing it's quality or because he thinks it fits into a story, because nobody in his right mind could do that. 

[Zenophilious]

Well pffft, I'm not sure how that'll effect the poll as a whole... But I'll add it anyway

I just requested this option because h-scenes can drive readers away if the overall quality of the VN is average or lower, yet if it's already a high-quality product they'll attract the people that only want them for the h-scenes as well as the people that are legitimately interested in the plot.  Really depends on the VN itself, really, not the h-scenes.  At least, that's what I've heard, and that makes sense.

 

Dead horse, people.  DEAD HORSE.  Did nohman's GIF and post have no effect at all?  This thread is not the place to debate pure love vs sexy things, list our personal stances on h-scenes, or post blocks of text trying to get one person to admit that h-scenes aren't bad or that they're the worst thing since Cheez Whiz.  If you want to do that, stop derailing this thread and go make one specifically for that purpose, or just PM the people you want to debate with instead of arguing in people's threads.  Starting arguments (which is what this is) solves nothing, and frankly, is not fun to be around.

 

[Vokoca]

Actually no I personally am born with artificial insemination,

I wasn't going to post, but I just can't handle those arguments anymore. I have to admit that I haven't laughed this much in quite a while.

[OriginalRen]

One thing I find interesting is that with recent visual novel releases, VNs and the amount of h-scenes seems to have drastically increased. After playing Cocoro@Function!  (which was released in 2013) and realizing there were about 5-6 scenes per heroine, I found it much different than older translated works. Clover Day's didn't have too many h-scenes from what I recall, but the fact they added a fandisc that added additional h-scenes for $25 strikes me as odd. What's more interesting is that the game was in the Japanese rankings for the top 25 VNs over the summer.

 

Another note that I find interesting is the change in how h-scene content is viewed in more recent titles. I used to be able to read h-scenes without too much trouble, but now scenes are starting to delve into extreme fetishes and sexual acts that seem next to impossible given the context. It also is troublesome that games have really focused on the imouto character archetype in the past few years and incest is almost a must in every game. It's not a major issue of mine, but the amount of experimenting these high school kids are doing seem to border what is actually possible and what isn't, but maybe that's just me.

[Okami]

I just requested this option because h-scenes can drive readers away if the overall quality of the VN is average or lower, yet if it's already a high-quality product they'll attract the people that only want them for the h-scenes as well as the people that are legitimately interested in the plot.  Really depends on the VN itself, really, not the h-scenes.  At least, that's what I've heard, and that makes sense.

 

Dead horse, people.  DEAD HORSE.  Did nohman's GIF and post have no effect at all?  This thread is not the place to debate pure love vs sexy things, list our personal stances on h-scenes, or post blocks of text trying to get one person to admit that h-scenes aren't bad or that they're the worst thing since Cheez Whiz.  If you want to do that, stop derailing this thread and go make one specifically for that purpose, or just PM the people you want to debate with instead of arguing in people's threads.  Starting arguments (which is what this is) solves nothing, and frankly, is not fun to be around.

 

 

Well you know me, as long as there are people making arguments that I strongly disagree with and can prove them wrong I will continue to prove them wrong unless eater they stop making arguments, they accept the truth, or 3rd party (Aka god/admin/mods) stop me. I am kind of person that when I know I am right I won't stop proving it as long as there are those openly questioning it.

[Life]

Actually no I personally am born with artificial insemination, but yes most people are born from people having sex, but that doesn't make it a big part of life, sure for people who like sex and who are addicted to it it is big important part of life, just as for junkies drugs are big important part of life but for those who aren't it's not, it's just a most popular means of reproduction and noting more.

 

And definition of pure love is that it has to be pure as opposite of dirty or sexy/perverted so if it has sex it's not a pure love any more. It is a simple logic and a common sense, you can't deny it if you know what pure loves means.

 

If some writer did write H-scenes by his own free will it's for an easy money not for increasing it's quality or because he thinks it fits into a story, because nobody in his right mind could do that. 

I'm just going to say, I find your opinion of 'pure love' absurd. Seriously. If two people love each other, you aren't going to expect them to hold hands for the rest of their lives. 

 

Now that I am out of lurking this thread I guess I will contribute. There are definitely a large group of people who have been put off reading VN's because of the assumption that all of them has H-scenes. There are people who read them and choose to seek out H-scenes. If anyone I know is under the misconception that all VN's have H-scenes I will explain it to them but whether they remember what I say is up to them really. As for how it affects the VN itself, I can't really say too much. As someone who prefers not to read H-scenes, I skip past too many of them to know how it affects enough VN's but in some that I have come across, it has played a relevant part in character development. Take a certain H-scene from muv-luv for example. That particular one made me feel uneasy and further developed my hatred towards the 'antagonists'

[Okami]

I'm just going to say, I find your opinion of 'pure love' absurd. Seriously. If two people love each other, you aren't going to expect them to hold hands for the rest of their lives. 

 

Actually yes, that is what pure love means, kissing is the most that two people who are in pure love can do, if they want anything "more" then it stops being pure love.

[babiker]

Hmmmm, well I might as well give a word concerning the... Sidetracking this thread was fated to face. I'm saying this to everyone, not just Okami. 

 

Even before the first recognizable out-of-topic post was posted, things were already getting out of hand. I am partially responsible for this, as I did (lightly) bash H-scenes a bit in my introduction, my motive behind that was mostly for comedy, and I even made a separate post saying "ITS A JOKE", yet people kept responding, and pffffffft the amount of responses was... Disappointing. So they shared their opinion, others gave theirs, and when you start arguing over something that not only wasn't meant to be talked about here, but even in its nature isn't questionable by logic... You start missing the point.

 

lol... I now remember when a friend of mine said "You want to stay loved on the internet? Never have an opinion! People hate opinions!" I thought he was exaggerating, yet here we are eh...

 

Anyway, so to clear up my second point, I consider it pointless to discuss morality. Everyone has different moral codes, codes that are shaped by many things, including upbringing, faith, culture, environment,  and most destructively (yet most effectively) by the media. But no one, and I mean no one bases their moral codes off of logic. Can you say that H-scenes are a good/bad thing based on logic? No, only based of the moral code you hold, and in order to question anyone else's morals, you need a very deep understanding of everything that affects your opinion, and the different opinions of everyone around you. Yet all I see going on is pre-assumptions, pre-judgments and over-all a never ending barrage of ignorance.

 

I loath the opinions of some people over here, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people loath my opinion. Does that give either of us the right to show it? No, it doesn't. 

 

More than once, I've seen people say "you're all pervs" in both a positive and a negative light, and in both cases its not true. So please, give us a break from all the clashing opinions/blind accusations, this thread was made for the purpose of seeing what people think are the effects of H-scenes on the medium as a whole, and many have done a splendid job sharing their thoughts, that's what I want to see more of.  

[TheFantasm]

Everyone that disagrees with me? not at all, just those who are perverts, and as you can see lot of them are not denying it, and some are even calling themselves perverts.

Meaning people who disagree with you. Is there a reason behind you acting like such a prude, or do you just enjoy arguing with people? Honestly seems like the latter.

[Bernkastel]

Personally I find H-scenes to be pointless, a waste of time and usually adds little to nothin' to the story. But that's just me and someone might feel the exact opposite I do and that's cool. I don't think anyone should be labeled a perverted just for likin' H-scenes and dismiss any points they might have on why they like and accepted them. 

[Satsuki]

I can't deny the truth that H-scene has a huge impact on a VN (hell, just look at IMHHW and NekoPara, people raging all over the place about "don't buy it from Steam, get the 18+ ver" and such). But personally, I find H-scene has absolutely no value aside from fan-service and breaking my Ctrl key. So yeah, story and art aside, if I have to choose between a 18+ and an all-age VN, I will choose the all-age one right away without any hesitation.

[Kosakyun]

I guess the war ended already.

 

Personally, I do think the option of "mixed impact" accurately describes what H-scenes contribute to a VN. There is a split in opinions related to H-scenes. One side likes them, the other side doesn't. Of course, there are those who simply do not care.

 

The impact on the VN is again split into two: sales and impressions. Generally, the H-scenes in VNs have a positive effect when talking about its sales. Usually, VNs with sexual content sell better than those that don't. Of course, we are considering non-nukige titles here. as nukiges are mostly sexual content. I do not know if nukiges sell better than some VNs, but seeing the titles that Mangagamer translates... I guess nukiges do good in Japan. In terms of impression though, VNs with sexual content are generally regarded as bad. Why? I guess it's because society dictates it's bad. For some reason, it's directly associated with viewing porn. Which is actually not far off. But c'mon. The different series in HBO contain sex, yet people view them as good. Why the discrimination? There's sexual content in both, yet VNs with H are generally looked down upon. A very biased discrimination, don't you say? Enough with that though. The bottomline is that VNs having sexual content are generally regarded as bad, since they're considered porn games. It's just that some places and people in the world are more tolerant than the others, and that they see through the frosting of the delicious cake, which is the porn it contains.