The impact of H-scenes on Visual Novels

[babiker]

WARNING: This is not another "you're all perverts" thread. Please keep things civil. 

 

What do you think are the implications of H-scenes on the wonderful medium we know as Visual Novels?

I don't think that has anything to do with anything... But that line is still cool : P

 

Personally, I think H-scenes are this mediums' biggest hurdle, its tallest wall. They have a large, negative impact that makes people call VNs "Hentai games", and seriously, is that what you want? Are you proud of being a Hentai gamer? Do you truly believe that by defending this atrocity, you are doing the medium any good...?!

 

Even for those who do enjoy porn, are VNs really a good place for that? Time and again I've heard the statement "That H-scene was so bad...". Is it just one particular H-scene, or do most of them seem to fall under this category...?

 

Well, I do personally admit to having a rather radical opinion. Please don't take my rambling too seriously. And fap all ya want

 

 

 

 

[Hakamichi_Sajaki]

Voted. I think that the option to take out the H scenes is good, but I prefer leaving them in, as it adds more to the story. Especially in well written ones as the H scenes naturally progress from the build up in the story.

[Down]

>Ask for the discussion to stay civil

>Starts out by saying that H-scenes are an atrocity

meph_says_gg_topkek_10/10_10h.mp3

 

In terms of purely narrative value, implied sex or explicit sex are the exact same. Their presence may or may not emphasize the fact, but I don't find that extremely important - I ctrl through them anyway so it doesn't matter.

 

I have to disagree with your statement though. Eroge ARE for the most part hentai games, I don't give a flying damn about being called a "hentai gamer" and I don't think the presence of sex scenes does the medium any bad per se. If there is a problem with this media, it's its niche nature and the extreme exigence of its players about trivial details - mandatory voice acting, mandatory routes for everyone, mandatory archetypes, mandatory sex scenes too but that's only a consequence.

[Ashadow700]

Voted.

It's a bit intresting, I think as of right now h-scene don't actually affect an given VN's popularity at the moment because the community is so small and closed, the majority of VN readers have probably just kinda gotten used to their existance. Even if one doesn't like them, I think most of us have just learned to put up with them inder order to have our stories. One could even argue that it is somewhat benefitial to genre, by "tricking" people into getting into the medium through the promise titts and ass.

 

If we are talking about trying to reach more of a mainstream audience though, I don't think the medium stands a chance as long as it is as h-scene centric as it is. It's just something that that's far too wierd and out there to ever by accepted by the average guy and girl. Just to put in perspective: a few years ago there was this one guy here in Sweden who was translating hentai mangas and something-somethng-I-don't-know-the-full-story-later, he got put on trial for owning child pornogrophy. He was eventually freed of all charges (thank goodness, our system of justice actually seem to work), but the mere fact that something like this would actually go to court in the first place speaks volumes about what the general public would think of this stuff should it ever get more attention. 

[Kurisu-Chan]

I have to disagree a bit with down, if eroges were only hentai games, the % of H-scenes of them would be significant, extremely significant, but for example, if i take Coµ, you have approx 10-12 H-scenes, that are spread through the different routes, and they represent...0.1% of the play time if you read them seriously, saying that Eroge are mostly hentai games is a little "off", because, if you take any kind of VN (Chunni, serious story, romance-focused, Otome ...etc Except Nukige ofc) you'll see that the part of H-scenes are even significant.

 

 

Now, if they impact my feeling or not, i can say that : NO, completely NO because Sex exists in Real life, and it's just a component of our lives, nothing more nothing less, and if you are shocked by H-scenes, WHAT about the action scenes when you just see mayhem, destruction, blood, sadness, horror, gore...etc? Yes, that do you nothing, but just, watch the result.

 

Sex = Happiness + life.

Action = Horror + sadness + death.

[Nerathim]

What is shocking are not the h-scenes themselves but the way they are written.

[Kurisu-Chan]

What is shocking are not the h-scenes themselves but the way they are written.

[TheFantasm]

I have no issue with H-Scenes, and prefer that they remain if that's how it was when it was released. I don't have a problem with there being an option to disable them though, as they're still there for those who want them, and those who don't are not forced to click through them.

[Eclipsed]

Lulz what Down said in his first two sentences was exatly what I was thinking xD

I voted "H-scenes have little to no effect". For every person that doesn't read VNs because of H-scenes, I'm sure there's a person that does read VNs for the H-scenes (For the record, I'm personally in it for the story and characters  )

For the reason above, I voted for "option of disabling H-scenes as having a big impact", since it opens up the VN to both H-scene and non H-scene preferring readers.

Lastly, "doesn't matter, had sex". Again, I read VNs for the story and characters, and do not mind H-scenes if they contribute to the development of yada yada yada woot woot sex!!!

 

[edwd2]

Hehe, you don't seem to understand the nature, origin, and target audience of this medium at all. H-Scenes are the biggest hurdle? No, they are more or less what keep the medium alive. Hentai gamers? Yes, why not, we were "perverts" to begin with. 

 

 

Now there are Nukige, straight porn, there's nothing to argue about those. Most VN, however, tell a story and allow readers to familiarize with the characters. When the HS actually comes, these are characters you care about and probably like, what's wrong with a couple to have sex?  If we take the VN as a romance simulation, the sex is an important and most likely inevitable part of the relationship. Think depicting it is immature? I'll tell you what's immature: the panty shots and lame fanservice in anime and manga.

VNs are one of the few mediums that allow full length story telling with explicit sexual descriptions. I'm not saying anything without HS is bad, it all depends on the needs of the story and the purpose of the HS.

 

 

[sirjabberwock]

Way to only have extremes in the first option. Nice sampling bias you got there xP

[Tawm]

I strongly dislike h-scenes.

They can be good for a laugh, though.

 

Recently, I've been going through Ayakashibito again with a friend (living room, pc hooked up to tv).

Whenever there are sex scenes, we do loud readings of the dialog, which brings us to tears without fail.

 

When I trigger an h-scene while reading alone, I simply hold the skip button until it's done.

It's such an enormous waste of time, and the way they are written is with 90% certainty cringe worthy.

If I wanted to jerk off or watch porn, I'd go do just that; not sit through 12 hours of dialog before the slurping noises and mosaic genitalia are delivered.

 

I know it's the main draw for a large portion of consumers, so removing them altogether would likely negatively affect the medium.

An option to disable h-content is a win-win for everyone.

 

Either way, I read VNs for their story and characters, and the fact that they contain sex scenes or not does not affect my overall enjoyment of a title, unless they're completely random and interrupt the pacing of the game *cough*Ayakashibito, Kaoru route*cough*.

[傍観者]

First things first.

 

The impact of H-scenes on Visual Novels.

 

They may have a negative impact on Visual Novels. Not because there's something inherently wrong with them, but because of the point of view of the larger part of our society. Similarly to anime, which is often considered either as childish cartoons or 2D pornography if there's any Ecchi content in it by outsiders for the simple fact that it's animated, it seems that the only thing people care about in Visual Novels are H-scenes, which makes them consider VNs as nothing more but an interactive 2D porn. There's also the fact that other people, who may have never read a VN themselves, blindly trust their word and start telling the others that VNs is a I2DP themselves. So yes, I think that H-scenes do have a negative impact on Visual Novels. Mainly because of the closed-mindedness and laziness that prevents too many people to check out VNs for themselves.

 

Now, about your thoughts.

 

Q: They have a large, negative impact that makes people call VNs "Hentai games", and seriously, is that what you want?

 

I don't mind and I don't really care what they think about them as long I like them myself. I read VNs for myself, not to impress other people. Why should you care about how do they call them anyway? Would you stop playing LoL or WoW just because the others say things you don't like about them? Or the issue here is that you're embarrassed of playing "Hentai games"?

 

Q: Are you proud of being a Hentai gamer?

 

I don't care. I couldn't care less about the opinion of people who haven't read a VN themselves, and most people who'd call you a "Hentai gamer" fall under this category. As for the rest, they're free to call me what they want. If they feel themselves better when calling people who read the VNs - "Hentai gamers", let them. I'm not going to stop reading just because they think it's wrong. Because I don't consider it wrong myself.

 

Q: Do you truly believe that by defending this atrocity, you are doing the medium any good...?!

 

I don't think of it as an atrocity to begin with. And I wouldn't really mind if the companies releasing VNs decide to cut out all the H-content from now on, since I don't read VNs for the sake of it myself. But I'd prefer if they don't. I don't see anything bad in it, and if used in right amount, I think it adds a certain spice to the main story. And like Kurisu-Chan said,

 

Sex = Happiness + life.

Action = Horror + sadness + death

Why should we be okay with all the action which propagates inflictions of suffering, murders and deaths while be ashamed of that very act that gave us life? Isn't that.. weird?

[Parallel Pain]

I have to disagree a bit with down, if eroges were only hentai games, the % of H-scenes of them would be significant, extremely significant, but for example, if i take Coµ, you have approx 10-12 H-scenes, that are spread through the different routes, and they represent...0.1% of the play time if you read them seriously, saying that Eroge are mostly hentai games is a little "off", because, if you take any kind of VN (Chunni, serious story, romance-focused, Otome ...etc Except Nukige ofc) you'll see that the part of H-scenes are even significant.

What if I told you that the story is to make the reader relate better to the characters so they enjoy the H scene more?

 

Anyone I agree with most other people. It's just life. There's nothing atrocious about it. If someone didn't have sex (hopefully lovingly) you wouldn't be here.

[Heizei_koukousei]

All I can say is that it was nice to see an H-scene again after playing through a few of the longer VNs that don't contain any such as Clannad, Remember11 and Ever17

Gotta find that balance

[babiker]

Well well, the storm has passed... Though the storm itself was rather calm, the confusion rate seems to be high in this thread. So, I guess I might as well try to clear up what needs to be cleared up. Please note that it's my specialty to confuse people, a specialty I didn't ask for... But I seem to have inherited non-the-less . So please, try to be understanding. Here we go:-

 

 

Personally, I think H-scenes are this mediums' biggest hurdle, its tallest wall. They have a large, negative impact that makes people call VNs "Hentai games", and seriously, is that what you want? Are you proud of being a Hentai gamer? Do you truly believe that by defending this atrocity, you are doing the medium any good...?!

 

Even for those who do enjoy porn, are VNs really a good place for that? Time and again I've heard the statement "That H-scene was so bad...". Is it just one particular H-scene, or do most of them seem to fall under this category...?

 

Well, I do personally admit to having a rather radical opinion. Please don't take my rambling too seriously. And fap all ya want

 

This entire part was suppose to be more for comedic purpose (as can be seen from the exaggerated tone of speech and the disclaimer at the end), and I wasn't expecting a serious response from anyone. Do I seriously have to add (LOL, XD, JK, ROFL) to every joke I make on the internet just to be understood...? 

 

as it adds more to the story.

 

...

But of course! What would a visual novel be without that added tits and vagina and moaning STORY?!

 

Yes, why not, we were "perverts" to begin with. 

 

Man, speak for yourself! Hmph!

 

The impact of H-scenes on Visual Novels.

 

They may have a negative impact on Visual Novels. Not because there's something inherently wrong with them, but because of the point of view of the larger part of our society. Similarly to anime, which is often considered either as childish cartoons or 2D pornography if there's any Ecchi content in it by outsiders for the simple fact that it's animated, it seems that the only thing people care about in Visual Novels are H-scenes, which makes them consider VNs as nothing more but an interactive 2D porn. There's also the fact that other people, who may have never read a VN themselves, blindly trust their word and start telling the others that VNs is a I2DP themselves. So yes, I think that H-scenes do have a negative impact on Visual Novels. Mainly because of the closed-mindedness and laziness that prevents too many people to check out VNs for themselves.

 

(Clap Clap) Well said, well said. That was the point of the first question, and it seems to me that besides you, a few people may have misunderstood it. Whether H-scenes are a personal big deal or not for you was the third question, the first is how do you think it affects the entire medium, not just yourself.

 

By answering the first question "H-scenes have little to no impact.", you're basically saying that if all the H-scenes that exist today in VNs were to be removed, nothing will change for the medium, including the people who are in to it, the people's view of the medium from outside of it, and simply the basic nature of Visual novels in general. I was actually expecting no one to make this choice, So either I'm just bad at communicating, people don't read properly, or you guys actually think VNs are the same thing with or without H-scenes... If the later is true, can we remove them then, since it makes no difference either way?

 

 

Oh, and I just have to find these in every discussion that questions the point of sex scenes:

Sex = Happiness + life.

Action = Horror + sadness + death.

Why should we be okay with all the action which propagates inflictions of suffering, murders and deaths while be ashamed of that very act that gave us life? Isn't that.. weird?

 

(sigh)... Just, what exactly does this have to do with anything? What is the point of this comparison? Are you saying that watching a couple of guys fist fighting is worse than watching two people going at it? I have no idea why this is always bought up in similar discussions...

 

Even for those who do enjoy porn, are VNs really a good place for that? Time and again I've heard the statement "That H-scene was so bad...". Is it just one particular H-scene, or do most of them seem to fall under this category...?

 

Its funny how this is the only serious point, yet the only one no one has addressed... Except for maybe Tawm.

[Okami]

I think that in short run little companies that don't have a a big budget and aren't that popular can lower a chases of failure (business/money failure not a quality failure) by adding H-scenes as even if people don't like it there will always be those who will buy them just for H-scenes. In a long run whoever they destroy them self, and they even lower a popularity of VNs that don't have H-scenes by being known as hentai-games. I mean just how many people would newer even consider giving a VNs a chance after seeing or hearing about H-scenes, I myself if I had known about them before I stared reading VNs I would probably newer even get close to VNs. So yes it's an easy way to earn some fast/easy money witch is the only purpose of H-scenes to begin with but in long run it has an extremely negative impact.

 

Hehe, you don't seem to understand the nature, origin, and target audience of this medium at all.

 

I would say that you are the one who doesn't understand those things, by pointing out how eroge are a center of a VNs as a medium you just show how little knowledge you in fact have about a topic.

[ServeTheServant]

I have contradicting views on H-scenes, I haven't been able to work out if I'm in favor of them or not overall.  I do think they have a strong negative impact on VNs becoming popular in the west, as it becomes associated with the social stigma of porn.  However, at the same time it likely buoys sales in Japan and helps keep the industry afloat.  If a novel is being imported, I think having the option to disable is a good call, but completely excising them MoeNovel style is a dealbreaker for me.

 

I don't specifically read stuff for H-scenes, and quite like some VNs without them (ex. S;G, Clannad), but for the right novel I still believe a well done H-scene can add a lot to immersion. If you've accumulated personal investment in the character over many hours of gameplay, the eventual H-scene can be a lot more enjoyable than just porn or a nukige. The problem there is the number of poorly done H-scenes, which can serve just as much to detract from immersion.  Besides just plain poorly written cliche ones, I hate when a H-scene pops up for no apparent reason that doesn't fit into the narrative or mood properly.  Another pet peeve is how 99% of VN girls are virgins, in this mystical world where beautiful girls never date anyone else until the protagonist shows up -- not only is this ridiculous, but it also leads invariably to the worst cliche scene, ever, the standard virgin sex scene which seriously reads like copy paste from a template.

 

So I kind of just rambled, but I guess my overall opinion sways positive toward the ideal H-scene, but negative in terms of either poor implementation or effect on VNs status in society.

 

Edit: Another thing that I just thought of -- clearly just from this thread, there is a lot of variation in how people feel about H-scenes and their place in various VNs.  There doesn't really need to be a unified answer to how the community feels, as VNs aren't uniform in their inclusion of H-scenes.  There are all-ages titles, eroges built around the romance and eventual H-scenes, action VNs with scenes added in as an afterthought, and just straight up nukiges.  People will naturally gravitate to the titles that fit their own preferences.  As said above, I personally dislike shoehorned in scenes and nukiges, but those have their own audience.

 

The best possible approach is just to be tolerant as consumers, and realize this is small enough of a community that something so easily ignored shouldn't be a deciding factor in overall enjoyment of VNs.  On the translating/development side, providing options to meet the variable demand is ideal-- this is where the option to flag scenes off is the best practice, but even in absence of that variation can be created just by different developers releasing titles that fall into different categories.

[Helvetica Standard]

WARNING: This is not YET another "you're all perverts" thread. Please keep things civil. 

 

 

A bunch of us are perverts. I'm a pervert and I enjoy H-scenes on VN the same way I enjoy VN without H-scenes. It doesn't matter to me and I'm okay with it either way.

I personally don't mind if I'm called a pervert (since everyone is just to a different degree) It all boils down to who is willing to accept it. XD

 

Also, VN with H-scenes can have a good story. Unless we are talking about straight up Nukige. (If you know what I'm talking about) Then no.

[Seth]

Usually I don´t mind H-scenes. If I have the choice between a vn without them and the exact same one just with them I would choose the latter, just to have more content and the hope that the scene does really add something to the story (it happens!...............sometimes) because then it would be sad not to read it. Also even if the scenes suck  you can simply skip them (just close your eyes during skipping if even only seeing the pictures is too much ).

 

The problem is of course that the mainstream people are already disgusted from hearing the words "it has sex scenes". That was already enough to scare otaku friends of mine away from visual novels even if they were interested at first. The option to disable h-Scenes or the fact that they are only a small part of a huge thing (>50h and only one hour of sex scenes for example) are also often useless because most people don´t care about that and get the Impression that vn are just something for weirdos interested in 2D sex (well I prefer 2D to 3D somewhat but does that make me a bad human?). You could say that the companies should just stop adding h-scenes but that would lead to other problems:

 

1. There are also quite some people who are only interested in eroge and that already lead many to reading real vns (that was the case with me at first and I also heard it from various other people). This fanbase would be lost.

 

2. (That´s just my opinion) One thing that I really like about vns is that they usually include everything and don´t exclude some themes that aren´t openly talked about and sex is one of those themes. It is a normal part of life but you will hardly find mediums that deal with it in its fulliest (expect porn, but that is always only made for fapping).

 

So to come to an end, h-scenes have at least the potential to have a big positive impact on visual novels but the existence of them also is partly at fault that great works like F/SN or Grisaia, just to name 2 of them don´t have popularity in the mass that they deserve.

 

 

 

 

And seriously, sometimes they are also just nice to fap to, aren´t they?

[OriginalRen]

I don't get it. Japan hates tattoos and has a huge stigma against them, but thinks things like panty touching statues and shit flavored school girl odor is "more" (and note I say more, but not entirely) acceptable. Confusing.

 

That being said, sex is sex. Like it or don't, it can go both ways. People love Game of Thrones and other series on HBO, so it's just a matter of putting cartoon girls with unrealistic proportions in sexual situations that causes fluster. Ah well.

[Kurisu-Chan]

I don't get it. Japan hates tattoos and has a huge stigma against them, 

 

Isn't that because most of the tattooed guys were Yakuzas and then having a tatoo was a way to say "you're a criminal"?

[OriginalRen]

Isn't that because most of the tattooed guys were Yakuzas and then having a tatoo was a way to say "you're a criminal"?

 

That's the stigma yes, but pedophiles and sexual molestation is better than yakuza activity? That's where I am confused. Damnit Pulltop...

[Nosebleed]

They have a large, negative impact that makes people call VNs "Hentai games", and seriously, is that what you want?

Are you proud of being a Hentai gamer?

Do you truly believe that by defending this atrocity, you are doing the medium any good...?!

1 - If they have sex, they are hentai games, I mean, simple logic here. It's not any less good or any less bad, you can advertise a visual novel as just a visual novel if it doesn't have h-scenes and be successful with it too, why are visual novels with h-scenes making you look bad?

But you can advertise it as an eroge/hentai game if it does as well.

Just because more VNs have h-scenes doesn't mean they're harming the industry, it just means that more companies prefer to feed off sexually frustrated otakus which is a much safer choice for a business. #Marketing101

 

2 - I don't care, I'll still fap to 2D girls.

 

3 - I don't know, it's not my job to defend the path companies are taking, I like visual novels, I also like hentai, why do I have to feel ashamed of it? It's whoever made the visual novel's job to advertise it the way they see more fit and if they want to go for the porn industry, that's their choice, it's more profitable at least 

 

I feel like people are quick to jump to conclusions on this. Visual Novels started as porn games. I'm not saying they should all be porn games, but I don't think the fact a big portion of them are to be a big deal, it's just the way it is, you can still tell people there's good visual novels that are not porn. 

 

Is it because there's a stigma surrounding them that puts some people off? Well Japan already has plenty of stigmas surrounding their 2D mediums, I think the best you can do about it is explain how it's not all porn. Is it so hard to do this?

 

Also there's been many more VNs  lately that are making new ports without H-scenes, so isn't this good news for you? Why are you suddenly alienating the porn aspect of VNs when it was here in the first place

 

Anyway.

 

In the end, h-scenes are not ruining Visual Novels, they always existed, porn has always existed since the dawn of time (look at all those naked men and women in ancient caves, those perverts!), there's Visual Novels with and without h-scenes, if you don't like them you can just go for the ones without them. And if you think this is ruining the industry as a whole well I think the industry doesn't really care much since it's their decision on how to make their games and they're chosing to go with porn most of the time. There are however companies that try to bet on good writing more than on h-scenes, but they are scarce, but it's not like they don't exist and I think more than ever there's been an increase in visual novels without h-scenes, so what's the big deal here, really?

[XD forever]

Well, I don't read VN for H scenes but i undersand that for the ones who make the VN in Japan is fondamental for make more people play their games (probably most of  the negative opinions of the Eroge is only from us west people). However I admit that is annoying to find during the reading without reason an h scene(like casual encounters of an old school  JRPG)