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Dies irae OUT NOW for everyone!


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6 hours ago, littleshogun said:

To tell the truth, I didn't pay attention to the wording (Punctuation and grammar) very much here. What I meant by overwhelming is that Dies Irae was quite wordy here, and it mean that sometimes I need to think it. Other than that, didn't had problem with understanding it so far even though I wasn't native English reader here (Then again, maybe there'll be some understanding problem if one person was reading Dies Irae as his first English VN though).

Proper grammar can speed up the process of reading and comprehension even if you aren't aware of when the grammar gets bad. That's what makes grammar important. Though I was really more talking about odd/incorrect word choices which isn't purely a grammatical issue. 

Take this from a scene halfway through the common route:

Spoiler

X1QzOIg.png

You can't "enter" a rooftop. Or maybe you can, but it sounds very painful, since the rooftop is a solid object. You can exit the school onto the rooftop, climb stairs to the rooftop, etc, but not enter it. Also the word "staple" is used incorrectly here. They probably heard the word used in reference to foods and consumer goods that people eat/use on a regular basis, but the word isn't flexible enough to be used for a place one person likes to go to. In this case, something along the lines of "favored" could have been used instead.  This is pedantic as all hell, true, but little things like proper word choice can go a long way to making your writing more easily understandable. In this line, it was pretty clear anyway what was happening, so I doubt even a non-native English reader like you would have any difficulty understanding it. But there are cases where it can get messier, such as the next line:

Spoiler

IpJQOyo.png

First of all, those slashes are not decapitating, because they're missing and thus not actually decapitating anything. You could say "would-be-decapitating," but that's really clunky. This leads to the next problem, where of course you die when you are decapitated. Pointing that out feels rather silly. One idea would be to remove the "decapitating" adjective and use "decapitate" as the verb in place of "kill," restructuring the sentence to make that work. I'm also not a fan of "state" there, because that implies that they have other states they could switch into, but IIRC, those slashes are by their nature invisible, so I would probably just switch "state" with "nature" (unless I'm misremembering that scene). 

"I couldn't quite confirm this due to their invisible nature, but a direct hit from the slashes that merely grazed me a moment before would no doubt decapitate me on the spot." TBH, I'm still not happy with that, "a direct hit from the slashes that merely grazed me a moment before" is such a mouthful, and the way talk about previous slashes mixed in with a line that's trying to portray the slashes as a still-ongoing event feels very clunky. I'd be tempted to just cut out the reference to the previous slashes entirely.

"I couldn't quite confirm this due to their invisible nature, but a direct hit from any one of these slashes would no doubt decapitate me on the spot." There's also a possible tense error with "kill," but despite the narration being in past tense, it's describing an ongoing event.  To be honest, this is where my lack of editing experience shows, as I actually have no idea what the correct tense here would be. If we say "would have no doubt decapitated me," that gives the line a deterministic bent which might remove some of the tension in the scene. Thematically very appropriate for the game, to be sure, but not great reading. :P

 

Eh, whatever. I'm sure some people will see this and call me nitpicky or say that they can understand it anyway so it's fine. I'm not actually trying to call out the translation as unreadable trash, it's still better than most VN translations for sure. But I think if a non-native English reader is having difficulty understanding some parts, there's actually a pretty good chance it's because it's not written as well as it could have been, and not because it's written too well, which is what some people are trying to claim (mostly, those same non-native English readers who don't know better).

Edited by Decay
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Didn't intend to post anything at first, but, sorry to say it, even in my non-native English reader eyes, I can see that that your second example isn't nitpicking, it's trying to find fault at anything.

A guillotine is made to decapitate, so nothing wrong with using 'decapitating slashes'.

As for the "kill" / "decapitate", don't remember the scene exactly, but I don't think only his neck was targeted, so "kill" is more appropriate than "decapitate". (if it was only his nexk, then I'm wrong, but even then "kill" avoid the repetition)

Won't say anything about the rest as my grammar must be elementary school level at best, but this sentence isn't the best example.

 

Anyway, as for the VN itself, just finished Sakurai's (Kei) route, as well as the second other story, and liking it so far. Loving Shirou, so pretty hyped to see how much of a badass he is in the best routes.

Edited by Riku
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52 minutes ago, Riku said:

A guillotine is made to decapitate, so nothing wrong with using 'decapitating slashes'.

As for the "kill" / "decapitate", don't remember the scene exactly, but I don't think only his neck was targeted, so "kill" is more appropriate than "decapitate". (if it was only his nexk, then I'm wrong, but even then "kill" avoid the repetition)

What I was trying to say and not getting across well is that a slash can't be decapitating unless it actually decapitates. That's how adjectives work. Also, only his neck was targeted. Every single slash was being directed at his neck and they were hitting other parts of him because he was moving around/dodging them. 

edit: I don't think I'm reaching that much when that line genuinely confused me for a second when I read it. There were several lines in that scene that I had to reread in order to understand what was happening, and that's obviously not ideal.

Edited by Decay
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4 hours ago, Decay said:

You can't "enter" a rooftop.

Isn't that just a bit of a nitpicking here? You can enter a rooftop because it's not like he was climbing it. He entered it because there was a staircase leading up to it just like any other floor. You don't say I exited the school to a 2nd floor or something, right? The line is meant to emphasize the exact time something happened.

I agree that the word staple was used too frequently there but perhaps they tried to keep it close to the original Japanese. That is, maybe in Japanese the same word is used in both cases so to retain that in English they use the same word twice. There are plenty of other things the localization took liberties with but perhaps this part was important enough to retain the repetitive wording.

4 hours ago, Decay said:

First of all, those slashes are not decapitating, because they're missing and thus not actually decapitating anything.

Once again, you gotta look at this differently, the word "decapitating" is used as an adjective not as a verb. It describes what these slashes are, not what they are doing. It's like if someone would say armor piercing bullets (or shells), it doesn't mean the bullets are piercing the armor RIGHT NOW. It just description of the kind of bullets these are.

As for the rest of the sentence, this is another thing I don't get what's the problem. The sentence comes to give the reader a sense of urgency, these slashes that only grazed him before which already did a huge damage to him will no doubt kill him if they inflict a bigger damage to his body. I don't really see any kind of problem here either. It's most likely another one of Masada's styles.

All I'll say is the English translation keeps the confusing and the difficult writing very closely to the original. It's hard to read because it was meant to be this way. Whether that's a good thing or not is for every individual to decide for themselves but I won't blame the translators and the editors and the whole localization team for trying to keep up with the original as close as possible while at the same time trying to make it feel as natural as possible in English (once again, as natural as Masada's writing can be).

 

Edited by fun2novel
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1 hour ago, fun2novel said:

All I'll say is the English translation keeps the confusing and the difficult writing very closely to the original. It's hard to read because it was meant to be this way.

Dies irae was not meant to be hard to read. It's only really especially hard for people who are not natural Japanese readers. Those who are can decypher the prose just fine. There are times where the writing and dialogue is being cryptic, but that's different, and has nothing to do with the prose in an action sequence. The myth that Dies irae is some ultra hard Finnigan's Wake-esque work is just that: a myth. It came about from westerners who learned Japanese later in life attempting to read it. If nothing else, action sequences should always be easy to follow if you want them to be entertaining. You also should avoid confusing depth and complexity in writing with actual readability and flow. 

1 hour ago, fun2novel said:

Isn't that just a bit of a nitpicking here? You can enter a rooftop because it's not like he was climbing it. He entered it because there was a staircase leading up to it just like any other floor. You don't say I exited the school to a 2nd floor or something, right? The line is meant to emphasize the exact time something happened.

What I take exception to—and this is indeed a nitpicky issue of semantics—is that they are not IN the rooftop, they are ON the rooftop. Actually, this issue can be fixed if you just change "enter the rooftop" to "enter onto the rooftop." 

1 hour ago, fun2novel said:

I agree that the word staple was used too frequently there but perhaps they tried to keep it close to the original Japanese. That is, maybe in Japanese the same word is used in both cases so to retain that in English they use the same word twice. There are plenty of other things the localization took liberties with but perhaps this part was important enough to retain the repetitive wording.

They barely use "staple," actually, and there is no way the repetition of it is even remotely important. It is of exactly zero importance, actually. If it was supposed to be of importance, than they really failed at getting that across to the reader.

1 hour ago, fun2novel said:

Once again, you gotta look at this differently, the word "decapitating" is used as an adjective not as a verb. It describes what these slashes are, not what they are doing. It's like if someone would say armor piercing bullets (or shells), it doesn't mean the bullets are piercing the armor RIGHT NOW. It just description of the kind of bullets these are.

I already said that "decapitating" is an adjective and not a verb, so I don't know why you're repeating that. I suppose my issue is that armor piercing rounds have qualities to them that make them especially adept at piercing armor, while these slashes are just slashes. If they strike the neck they will chop a head off, but there's nothing really special that specifically allows for that other than their speed and ferocity. Thus, I would hesitate to use "decapitating" as an adjective for them while they are failing to do that. 

I guess what's more important than whether you CAN use "decapitating" there is whether you SHOULD, as it leads to a needlessly confusing sentence. In fact, I'm still not fully sure what exactly that sentence is saying. It's prose isn't deep and complex, it's just sloppy. They use the entire series of slashes as a subject while describing what happened with previous slashes in the same breath, leading to some confusion. There has to be a more elegant way of writing that.

 

I fully acknowledged that these issues are ultimately not very big, but their frequency of occurrence is a little disappointing, and I do believe it's a major contributor to why some foreign readers are finding it difficult to read.

edit: This whole thing is being blown out of proportion so I'd like to avoid blowing it out even further, if possible.

Edited by Decay
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3 minutes ago, Decay said:

Dies irae was not meant to be hard to read. It's only really especially hard for people who are not natural Japanese readers. Those who are can decypher the prose just fine. There are times where the writing and dialogue is being cryptic, but that's different, and has nothing to do with the prose in an action sequence. The myth that Dies irae is some ultra hard Finnigan's Wake-esque work is just that: a myth. It came about from westerners who learned Japanese later in life attempting to read it. If nothing else, action sequences should always be easy to follow if you want them to be entertaining. You also should avoid confusing depth and complexity in writing with actual readability and flow. 

I read it in Japanese the first time. And I can say that the prose can get very difficult sometimes. And sometimes it's very vague (which is what I was referring to when I said the English was very close to the original). The difficulty of Dies writing is certainly not a myth, it's not an imagined mystical holly writing either. But the thing is that it's not something exclusive to Dies irae, take any modern Light vn and they are all difficult to read. I know that because I tried them all, lol.

And yeah, I agree about the action scenes. They should be brisk to read and easy to follow. I think the action scenes in Dies are hard to follow at times and demand a lot of attention.

9 minutes ago, Decay said:

What I take exception to—and this is indeed a nitpicky issue of semantics—is that they are not IN the rooftop, they are ON the rooftop. Actually, this issue can be fixed if you just change "enter the rooftop" to "enter onto the rooftop." 

Maybe you're right. But this doesn't bother me personally at all.

10 minutes ago, Decay said:

They barely use "staple," actually, and there is no way the repetition of it is even remotely important. It is of exactly zero importance, actually. If it was supposed to be of importance, than they really failed at getting that across to the reader.

I don't remember this part in Japanese so can't say exactly what was going on.

12 minutes ago, Decay said:

I already said that "decapitating" is an adjective and not a verb, so I don't know why you're repeating what I already said.

You are correct here. I should have read what you said more carefully.

15 minutes ago, Decay said:

I suppose my issue is that armor piercing rounds have qualities to them that make them especially adept at piercing armor, while these slashes are just slashes. If they strike the neck they will chop a head off, but there's nothing really special that specifically allows for that other than their speed and ferocity. Thus, I would hesitate to use "decapitating" as an adjective for them while they are failing to do that.

But isn't that's exactly what these slashes meant to be? These are not sword slashes, these slashes were meant to decapitate. Someone who swings those slashes is doing with the intention to separate flesh in two.

Anyway, we're just gonna keep going in circles, lol.

 

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2 hours ago, fun2novel said:

I read it in Japanese the first time. And I can say that the prose can get very difficult sometimes. And sometimes it's very vague (which is what I was referring to when I said the English was very close to the original). The difficulty of Dies writing is certainly not a myth, it's not an imagined mystical holly writing either. But the thing is that it's not something exclusive to Dies irae, take any modern Light vn and they are all difficult to read. I know that because I tried them all, lol.

I would say anything written by masada actually ˆˆ.

For example vermillion wasn't that much of a hard read. It sure, a lot harder than your common vn, but it's less confusing than let's say Hachimyoujin during fight scenes (or so i felt while reading it).

I won't nitpick on phrasing / grammar so much, because i'm not a native english, i won't even notice things like the rooftop lol, even if i know how to write it the good way :ren:.

I most likely would be more nitpicking if it was tled in my language though.

 

So far i'm on chapter 3 and i'm quite enjoying myself with this game, if only i wasn't working... It's hard to stop reading and wait until the end of the next day :amane:.

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On 6/6/2017 at 6:42 PM, Decay said:

Proper grammar can speed up the process of reading and comprehension even if you aren't aware of when the grammar gets bad. That's what makes grammar important. Though I was really more talking about odd/incorrect word choices which isn't purely a grammatical issue. 

Take this from a scene halfway through the common route:

  Reveal hidden contents

X1QzOIg.png

You can't "enter" a rooftop. Or maybe you can, but it sounds very painful, since the rooftop is a solid object. You can exit the school onto the rooftop, climb stairs to the rooftop, etc, but not enter it. Also the word "staple" is used incorrectly here. They probably heard the word used in reference to foods and consumer goods that people eat/use on a regular basis, but the word isn't flexible enough to be used for a place one person likes to go to. In this case, something along the lines of "favored" could have been used instead.  This is pedantic as all hell, true, but little things like proper word choice can go a long way to making your writing more easily understandable. In this line, it was pretty clear anyway what was happening, so I doubt even a non-native English reader like you would have any difficulty understanding it. But there are cases where it can get messier, such as the next line:

  Reveal hidden contents

IpJQOyo.png

First of all, those slashes are not decapitating, because they're missing and thus not actually decapitating anything. You could say "would-be-decapitating," but that's really clunky. This leads to the next problem, where of course you die when you are decapitated. Pointing that out feels rather silly. One idea would be to remove the "decapitating" adjective and use "decapitate" as the verb in place of "kill," restructuring the sentence to make that work. I'm also not a fan of "state" there, because that implies that they have other states they could switch into, but IIRC, those slashes are by their nature invisible, so I would probably just switch "state" with "nature" (unless I'm misremembering that scene). 

"I couldn't quite confirm this due to their invisible nature, but a direct hit from the slashes that merely grazed me a moment before would no doubt decapitate me on the spot." TBH, I'm still not happy with that, "a direct hit from the slashes that merely grazed me a moment before" is such a mouthful, and the way talk about previous slashes mixed in with a line that's trying to portray the slashes as a still-ongoing event feels very clunky. I'd be tempted to just cut out the reference to the previous slashes entirely.

"I couldn't quite confirm this due to their invisible nature, but a direct hit from any one of these slashes would no doubt decapitate me on the spot." There's also a possible tense error with "kill," but despite the narration being in past tense, it's describing an ongoing event.  To be honest, this is where my lack of editing experience shows, as I actually have no idea what the correct tense here would be. If we say "would have no doubt decapitated me," that gives the line a deterministic bent which might remove some of the tension in the scene. Thematically very appropriate for the game, to be sure, but not great reading. :P

 

Eh, whatever. I'm sure some people will see this and call me nitpicky or say that they can understand it anyway so it's fine. I'm not actually trying to call out the translation as unreadable trash, it's still better than most VN translations for sure. But I think if a non-native English reader is having difficulty understanding some parts, there's actually a pretty good chance it's because it's not written as well as it could have been, and not because it's written too well, which is what some people are trying to claim (mostly, those same non-native English readers who don't know better).

I had to search the word "staple" since this is the first time I see it in this context and with that meaning, I figured that it probably had something to do with the meaning of liking something a lot but I was clueless really.
The only "stable" I knew until now was this one or the verb, like joining two things together. 

Other than that I didn't see anything weird but then again English is not my first language so I'm not the most adequate person to speak about this. 
That being said, I think the "enter" in that sentence is just a "translation issue", it's something common to see the verb 入る in VNs being used in these types of scenes like "屋上に入る", they use it all the time and the meaning of that is in fact "to enter" or "go into" (literally to enter the rooftop, building, room etc) , so yeah I think that's just a translation issue, maybe it was too literal?
I actually read it like "enter the xxx" all this time too and It doesn't sound bad at all for me and didn't notice anything wrong until you brought it up but like I said English is not my native language so I can't detect those kind of subtitles in the language.
If you think about it, if it is wrong it should be in both languages or any time you read a sentence in Japanese that contain such phrasing, again the translation is "literal".

Edited by Deep Blue
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5 hours ago, fun2novel said:

It's like if someone would say armor piercing bullets (or shells), it doesn't mean the bullets are piercing the armor RIGHT NOW. It just description of the kind of bullets these are.

I'd thought I'd quickly correct something (I'm pretty much offline for a few days.) The definition of "armour piercing" is "capable of, or used for piercing armour." That's taken from the Merriam Webster, and if you look up the meaning in a more technical manual it lists specific attributes those bullets (or shells) must have (like being full metal jacket etc.) Therefore "armour piercing bullets" are by definition bullets capable of penetrating armour. 

If you look up the definition of "decapitating" and apply it the same way, you will get a very different meaning than what you are stating. Nowhere in the definition of "decapitating" does it say "being capable of removing your head from your shoulders."

However, that doesn't mean it isn't a metaphor. A metaphor is a piece not meant to be taken literally but rather symbolically to aid in the creation of imagery. You could argue the use of "decapitating" was not meant to be a literal take, but rather something to evoke pictures in the readers' imagination. It could be hyperbole, because it was first person narration. So you could head down one of these paths to justify the usage, but please don't compare it to "armour piercing" because that's a very LITERAL adjective :P 

And I really need to leave it there and jet.

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11 hours ago, Decay said:

You can't "enter" a rooftop. Or maybe you can, but it sounds very painful, since the rooftop is a solid object. You can exit the school onto the rooftop, climb stairs to the rooftop, etc, but not enter it.

Can't you mean the empty area between the tall fences as "rooftop"? You can enter a room. You mean the empty area between the walls with that. Same way rooftop is the empty area between the tall fences except this time there is an invisible ceiling.

Spoiler

lvKFhKW.png

 

Edited by Kiriririri
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3 hours ago, Tweek91330 said:

For example vermillion wasn't that much of a hard read. It sure, a lot harder than your common vn, but it's less confusing than let's say Hachimyoujin during fight scenes (or so i felt while reading it).

Sure, I read some of Vermilion too. It is like you said, harder to read than a common vn. But their later games got harder and harder in my opinion. But they also got better and better as well, lol.

1 hour ago, novurdim said:

Well, if those are seriously the worst Decay can come up with, I believe we can all easily agree that the translation is good. Being overwhelming to littleshogun is honestly no sin to debate over. 

I think it's more of an issue of spoilers. I appreciate he didn't show anything from far into the game or something more spoilerish.

 

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1 hour ago, novurdim said:

Well, if those are seriously the worst Decay can come up with, I believe we can all easily agree that the translation is good. Being overwhelming to littleshogun is honestly no sin to debate over. 

It's not the worst I can come up with. I only used two examples I already had available to illustrate a point: That improper writing techniques might be making it more difficult for people less used to reading English. I wasn't intending to thrash the translation or start a huge debate over it, but I guess I should have known better.

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It's a point nigh impossible to prove in this case so I don't really get why you even started. Even with my extremely mediocre third language English, I had no problems with Dies whatsoever while my friend is constantly complaining about Fata Morgana because they use "weird" words like "simultaneously", "why can't they just say at the same time". The same way we can see from forum posts that shogun's english is likely even worse than mine and he would have trouble even with a literally ideal localization because this is just how Dies is. And then you are overcomplicating the situation simply because you want to believe that your nitpicking has a practical meaning. 

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Yeah, I fucked up. I stand by what I said, but if I was going to make any criticism of the translation, it needed to either be in general terms, or be a stronger criticism with more/better examples.

Maybe I'll try finishing the Kasumi route later today if I have the time. I barely got any reading done yesterday. Other random thoughts:

1) I like Kasumi more than the other heroines, and it's kind of a bummer that she has the "intro" route. 

2) The BGM gets a bit repetitive, and isn't especially good overall. There's some decent tracks, but it's largely pretty generic, and there aren't enough tracks.

3) I'm getting the feeling that Masada doesn't think very highly of women. I hear his games are more popular with female demographics than most other chuuni titles, which only confuses me.

4) These moments of comedic relief are pretty good, and the way they manage to mix exposition into them helps with the pacing. Though it gets more romcom-ish than I expected (though it seems very self aware about this).

Edited by Decay
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Just a warning in case anyone hasn't already heard: don't look at the latest Dies irae kickstarter update.  It apparently has an image that spoils Rea's route, which is the conclusion to the story.  It was described as a "major spoiler", so avoid it like the plague if you haven't already finished the VN.

Same goes with the artbook, which is where the picture is supposed to be from.  If you get the artbook before you finish the VN, don't look at it.

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Well, I just finished the game and will give some very short thoughts.

Steam shows 56h hours after completion but like 2 hours was game running idle in background.

Generally I think that Dies was worth the hype around it. The plot wasn't exactly mindblowing or something like that and I felt like pacing of some fights was off (sometimes characters talked too much but I guess it's kinda normal in this genre) but this VN has amazing and memoriable cast of characters. One of the best villians I would say.

Worth to try, especially that common route is free.

Edited by furleppe
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Apparently all voices in my game disappeared and it didn't help verify the game. Tried reinstalling the game but still missing voice for any characters. Yes I checked my settings and googled if anyone else had the same problem. I can hear the BGM, movie and special effects. Can't hear the voice, environmental and system sounds.

If I unplug my speakers and run it through my monitor it works. Something wrong with 7:1 sound? It worked last week. My sound is horrible with the monitor and the atmosphere is kind of ruined if I can't play with headphones. A possibility is finding my old speakers from 2000 I have in a box on the attic. 

Anyone got a solution or experienced something similar? 

- Verfied game, reinstalled the game

- Located that my headphones doesn't play voice, environmental and system sounds of Dies Irae. See picture of the config list.

- No problem with BGM, movie and special effect sounds.

- It worked earlier this week with the same headphones. Wired Logitech G35 with 7:1 sound.

Any ideas what I could do or fix it? Perhaps I should post it in the tech FAQ area but I'm trying here. Worth mentioning is that I have no problem with my headphones with any other game.

Nevermind found the problem and solved it. Something weird with my PC settings compared to my Logitech settings and they overwrote each other resulting in some weird setup.

Edited by SilverLi
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Just curious, why does Reinhard refer to people as "K", he means Kimi wa right? Is it like a royal way of saying it? Is it common in regular Japanese vocabulary?

 

About Beatrice:

Spoiler

Really liking Beatrice, I'm at the 3rd side story now and getting to know all these different elements of her has been really fun to read through. She's so flawed and related able, also with her personality it just makes her really endearing.

Well i've been liking most of the characters as they develop. Since I love long stories, thus long Vns too, the gradual process of character and plot development throughout the routes hooks me right in. Hope Beatrice reappears in the other routes too! :) 

 

 

Edited by DharmaFreedom
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3 hours ago, DharmaFreedom said:

Just curious, why does Reinhard refer to people as "K", he means Kimi wa right? Is it like a royal way of saying it? Is it common in regular Japanese vocabulary?

 

 

 

I belive it's 卿(kei): you (in reference to someone of lower status).

Seems to pretty arrogant, so I doubt it's something you would hear normally in Japan.

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Then again, Reinhard was the leader of LDO and the king of his demonic Hall of Valhalla so I guess it's kind fitting if Reinhard was very arrogant (Not to mention that he look people's soul as resources in order to fuel his power).

Right now I'm at Chapter 7 and for the first route obviously I'll going with Kasumi, or as Shiro said Bakasumi (Twitsumi if you follow translation). So far, it's quite good read although BGM looping issue was get a little annoying though, especially if it's occured often. Other than that, no problem with the story and by the way the BGM was quite good.

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