Sharin no Kuni Prefundia page is up

[Nosebleed]

I agree we can't judge much without seeing the price, but I wonder how much will something as simple as a CG gallery cost.

Are they going to sell it for 5, maybe 10 bucks? Seems very excessive for something that's already coded in the game, but if it's smaller than that then it doesn't justify them taking it out either because the price difference would be miniscule

Let's assume a 10 dollar difference between the 2 versions and the deluxde version costs 40 dollars. You can't tell me it will feel right to see 2 pieces of dlc that already come with the original game make a 10 dollar price difference. At least I would think it's very exaggerated. 

The voices in G-Senjou retailed for 20 bucks due to all the licensing fees. To think a piece of coding that already exists can even be evaluated at half that price seems excessive.

It's hard to imagine a price point where this decision isn't dlc exploitation. Those are just my 2 cents though.

[Maxel]

Let's start with, where does the english title comes from?

Let's continue with, why the hell is "OPENING" (DEMO MOVIE?) not translated? It's probably because they don't have capable translators of doing so. As we all know most openings are quite hard to translate. Key did their job though. It might also suggest that they want to minimalize costs if kickstarter fail, they can abort the mission without losing much money.

And now, it looks like they're quite sceptical, by quite I mean QUITE towards core VN fanbase, and the crowd which is gonna try to fund this project. Project which is planning to edit existing superb translation, and make it top tier level. Yeah... Nope.

I heard that Sharin no Kuni h-scenes are bad or something, but... I think most people still want uncut version. I wonder what these "..." mean... Figure it out for yourselves.

You thought that Root Double devs were mad with shikishi pricing? Well, there you go! They're running for top tier spot with this price. I think they should add something like: Only for 4,000$!!

Let's look at the cost breakdown now:

Localization costs of Grisaia SERIES - 64,000$ (Frontwing + SP) (50h+/10h+/10h+ = 70h+)

Localization costs of Clannad - 56,000$ (Key + SP) (50h+)

Localization costs of Muv-Luv TRILOGY - 57,500$ (Age + Degica) (30h+/50h+ = 80h+)

Localization costs of Root Double - 36,450$ (Regista + Lemnisca/SP) (50h+)

Localization costs of Sharin no Kuni - 49,000$ (Frontwing) (10h+)

Sharin no Kuni isn't a monstrous sized visual novel, it doesn't have 100,000 lines of text, yet looks like editing of a translation is quite costly, especially such high quality editing that this VN will probably receive.

Let's move further. Development costs 35,000$ I really do wonder where it goes? This visual novel was already translated, engine is old and well-known, because of this there shouldn't be much to do to make it run on english language Windows? Let's also add 7,000$ to that for creating a kickstarter page, and... yeah. There we have 140,000$, it's totally reasonable amount.

That should be all for now from my side... I'm disappointed. Can't wait to see their interaction with "fans" if there will be any.

[Darklord Rooke]

1 minute ago, Nosebleed said:

It's hard to imagine a price point where this decision isn't dlc exploitation. Those are just my 2 cents though.

Someone explain to me this: If the DLC's on offer are being offered in the full version of the game, and the full version of the game is priced normally, how can it be 'DLC exploitation' when there's no need to purchase the 'DLC', and purchasing the 'DLC' may not bring the price up higher than what the game was originally going to be priced at?

Someone on Reddit made the retarded observation that this is worse than the Horse Armour DLC, let me explain very simply why he's wrong. The Horse Armour DLC was to provide content not included in the original game for an extra, exorbitant price. The Frontwing DLC is found in the original game, and instead you can opt to purchase a cheaper version sans features. Big difference between the two, yes? God, Reddit's a hole these days.

@Maxel I should point out that the translators in the VN community normally get paid a pittance to what translators actually should get paid. To complain about the costs of editing and translation, as if the norm should be they get paid a pittance, is kinda sad.

[Nosebleed]

That's the thing Rooke, I don't know if they're going to price the game normally, it seems very weird that something as small as a CG gallery could realistically make a price difference, so it's not unreasonable to assume they will inflate the price.

And even if they didn't, even if the English version cost the same as its Japanese counterpart, you still can't tell me it will feel reasonable for something as tiny as a CG gallery option to make that big of a price difference between 2 versions, it will always be assumed the price is being inflated.

We don't have to call it dlc exploitation if you don't want to, but it sure isn't something super reasonable either, at least not right now.

[Darklord Rooke]

5 minutes ago, Nosebleed said:

That's the thing Rooke, I don't know if they're going to price the game normally, it seems very weird that something as small as a CG gallery could realistically make a price difference, so it's not unreasonable to assume they will inflate the price.

The only reason of stripping content (I can see) is to offer a cheaper version so as to target those who don't want to pay a premium price. What's the point of inflating the price of the full version so the regular (stripped) version is offered at the market norm? It's now not targeting the customers who are price sensitive (to use Sanah's words) and the deluxe (normal package) now costs the same as a AAA game, which means they've priced themselves out of the market. Now they COULD do this, but they'd be stupid to. The point is, it's not the only option though. IMO, it makes much more sense to lower the price of the stripped version to about 20 bucks.

But people have been making baseless assumptions and drawing wild conclusions the entire time.

[Nosebleed]

Then look at it from the perspective of someone who wants the whole thing, you're telling me I have to pay 10 or 20 whole extra dollars JUST so I can see the CGs in a gallery, something that's the norm in any visual novel already and is now turned "exclusive". Do you not see a single problem people might have with that?

The issue isn't so much the stripping but the idea that it could be used to make fans pay up more than nwhat is typically needed.

Again, I understand the price is not out yet and it could technically be reasonable, but it's not looking that great imo so far.

[Darklord Rooke]

19 minutes ago, Nosebleed said:

Then look at it from the perspective of someone who wants the whole thing, you're telling me I have to pay 20 whole extra dollars JUST so I can see the CGs in a gallery, something that's the norm in any visual novel already and is now turned "exclusive". Do you not see a single problem people might have with that?

Okay:

A) The whole thing is being offered

B) There is no indication it's being offered at an inflated price when compared with Western market norms, and therefore I have a problem with your use of the term 'exclusive'. I have a problem, also, with that figure you just pulled out of your arse, the one you're using as a catalyst to get angry over.

C) There is a version being offered at a 'reduced price' in comparison to the deluxe version. There is no evidence you are paying 'extra' to see the CG, rather all that can be said for certain is it will be 'cheaper' if you don't want to view the CG. Once again, whether you have to pay 'extra' for the 'deluxe version' cannot be ascertained until prices are released. 

D) While you do have to pay extra compared with the featureless version, at the moment it can be viewed as a boon for the people who don't want features, rather than a slap to those who want it. Probably because the company wants to lure in a different type of consumer, but doesn't want to offer the full VN at such a reduced price (guess alert!) It could also be viewed as price inflation, but nothing's been confirmed or denied. If it's offered at a reduced price for 'no frills' customers, it's because they're trying to offer an incentive for a different consumer base to leap into the game, but once again offering a special to a part of a market they're trying to lure in is in no way the SAME as offering the full version at a price that is a rip off to hardcore consumers. Can people understand this?

E) I see a problem you MAY have in the future, depending on what the prices are, but nothing to justify the nonsense the community has spewed forth so far. 

EDIT:Oh, and I do admit it could be better done. I understand their goal, but I do realise removing CG and sound mode is a clumsy way to do this. That being said, if the price of the deluxe version is reasonable, I don’t think it should matter to those who want the full version. You'd still be getting it at a reasonable price.

Which means, wait for the prices before you go off your rocker peeps.

[Nosebleed]

You're still completely ignoring what I already mentioned twice: it's very weird to think a CG gallery by itself could cause such a price difference that would justify a deluxe version existing to begin with.

Yes, I pulled that figure out of my ass, but what else are you going to suggest is plausible? A 5 dollar difference? That's miniscule and hardly a reason to make 2 different versions.

Unless the price difference is 10 dollars or more, there is no decent excuse to have 2 versions. Assuming the stripped version is priced at 20 bucks like you said (againm, assuming, I'm not stating these prices will happen), the deluxe version will at least be 30 dollars or higher, otherwise there's really no point.

Then, as a costumer, I look at those and think "what's the difference?" And then I noticed what causes that decently sized price gap is a miniscule feature to view CGs.

You can call me a cheapskate, but of course I'm going to think they're overpricing the damn thing, it's just the conclusion most people come to.

The concept of a cheaper version itself is great, I love that companies are exploring ways to get more costumers, but this specific case just doesn't feel like it will be that right now, and that's why people are worried!

Do I have ANY proof? Absolutely 100% not. But do I have a reason to be pessimistic? Knowing just how much dlc of this nature can be abused, I'll be damned if this looks anything but negative thus far. I'm sorry, but people have the right to be concerned about this thing.

The difference between you and me here is that we place completely different values on a CG gallery, so ultimately I'm never going to agree with you that this is completely and 100% reasonable looking.

Could I be proven wrong? Of course, when the price comes out we'll know jusr exactly what they're trying to pull, but that doesn't invalidate all the uncertainty people are feeling over this decision.

[Mugi]

Another all-age localization? What a shame

[Darklord Rooke]

40 minutes ago, Nosebleed said:

You're still completely ignoring what I already mentioned twice: it's very weird to think a CG gallery by itself could cause such a price difference that would justify a deluxe version existing to begin with [snip]

Let me start my reply with an example. Tell me if I bore people.

Is a purchaser of a book being ripped off if that person can buy an ebook for a third of the price of a paperback? What does the paperback add? They both have the same content, the paperback will not last as long, it’s not a nice physical edition, it’s frail and will easily fall apart, but lovers of physical media are being forced to pay 3x the price for the same thing. I can guarantee you it doesn’t cost that much to print the thing physically, so why the extra cost? Are they being ripped off? In this instance, the ebook is being priced quite cheap (permanently,) but the cost of the paperback is in line with market norms, which is why there won't be any complaints. In other words, no, in this instance paperback purchasers are not being ripped off despite paying a premium (comparatively) with the ebook purchaser because they’re not paying a premium when compared with other physical books.

I want to buy the Witcher 3. How come I can go to Amazon and purchase the physical PC copy for 60% of the price I can get the digital version on Steam? The digital copy should be cheaper, right? It doesn’t come with a disc, or a neat cover, so why am I paying more? I’m paying 20 dollars more for the right to NOT have a disc! And a cover! Am I being ripped off? No. You’re getting it cheaper on Amazon, rather than more expensive on Steam. You see the trend?

So I deliberately ignored your point because it’s a separate issue. And it’s CG gallery AND sound mode. And as Sanah said, this won’t be an issue for those who help with the kickstarter.

If they’re creating a cheap version for ‘no frills’ customers, then they’re offering an incentive for a different customer base to leap in at a cheap price point with fewer features. It doesn’t so much matter what those features are, as long as they’re not the same. It’s a fairly clumsy attempt, but that’s a different point. However, nobody in the VN community has established that this is a price inflation for VN consumers, rather than a bit of a special for those they’re trying to lure in, and they are 2 very different things. VN consumers are acting as though they’re being ripped off, without having established whether they’re being ripped off. You’re not being ‘ripped off’ because you have to pay more than someone who got a bargain, you’re ‘ripped off’ when what you pay is out of kilter with market expectations of that product (or it’s dodgy.) Of course, this is ONLY if they’re offering a no-frills, cheap version and not price hiking (which hasn't been established.)

I am not arguing whether the common perception is that it’s overpriced or not, I’m arguing whether it IS overpriced or not. If you know something is not overpriced, or you know something may not be overpriced, and yet you’re still arguing on the basis that it IS overpriced, then I don’t know what to say other than you’re being deliberately disingenuous. Disingenuous meaning being insincere by pretending you know less about stuff than you do. You know what the perception is, but more importantly you know very well the perception could be unreliable and yet you’re ignoring that piece of information in your arguments. Because there's a chance things could turn out bad? Well, just because there's a chance doesn't then validate assuming this to be the case and running wild with accusations and derogatory conclusions.

I never said it invalidated the ‘uncertainty’ of the VN community, I said the nonsense spewed forth by the VN community. And if you’re going to stand there and say ‘you don’t know what I’m talking about’, I’ll say you’re again being disingenuous. Because a lot of what the community has had to say has been very harsh and utter trash.

[OriginalRen]

I'm extremely confused why anyone would want to support this shady business from a Japanese developer. It's a cash grab from a dying market; there is literally no reason for all of those fees when the only thing that needs to be "purchased" are the rights to the game and the shipping fees for physical copies. Don't get me wrong, I am sure there are other small fees here and there that I have no clue about, but a Kickstarter is not needed in my eyes. What are they localizing?

[Erogamer]

I wonder if the physical copy will be the uncut 18+ version.

[Conjueror]

52 minutes ago, OriginalRen said:

I'm extremely confused why anyone would want to support this shady business from a Japanese developer. It's a cash grab from a dying market; there is literally no reason for all of those fees when the only thing that needs to be "purchased" are the rights to the game and the shipping fees for physical copies. Don't get me wrong, I am sure there are other small fees here and there that I have no clue about, but a Kickstarter is not needed in my eyes. What are they localizing?

Um, they still have to pay the translators, editors, marketing managers and everyone else. I don't see why Sharin no Kuni should cost less than any other game to release (it's not even as short as ppl indicate -- who the hell read it in 10 hours? O_o). I'm personally really excited to see it finally getting a potentially proper release, being by far one of the best eroge ever written (according to Moogy the original fan-tl was pretty much fan-fiction tier since no one working on it really knew JP back then).

[Polycentric]

I feel like simply removing the CG section and Sound Mode of the extras Mode is a very awkward way to make a distinction between a 'standard' and 'deluxe' version of a VN, especially if they're already considered to be normally included in any VN. I totally agree with Nosebleed that it would seem strange to have a large enough price difference between the two versions to justify the troubles of making two distinct versions with the options of DLCs. Of course we can't draw any concrete conclusions before actual prices are released, as those would be the deciding factor in justification.

I do like the idea of making these games more modular. Being able to buy a stripped down version of a game, especially if you're not sure whether or not you'll enjoy it is nice. However it's easy to see this separation of content as a money grab which is honestly kind of frightening. Also I think that phrasing the full game as 'deluxe' is slightly misleading because in reality it's just what would normally be offered.

As for the All-Ages aspect, it's to be expected considering KS and Steam rules. In my opinion the h-scenes weren't super important or outstanding in general. We'll have to wait and see how FW handles the whole scene that's integral to the story and Kenichi. Hopefully they don't just give an awkward roundabout description of the actual scene and instead find an interesting way to resolve the issue. 

I'm happy that this game is getting an official localization. Whether or not the localization is successful depends on how FW connects to the fans and adresses their concerns. Also, the pricing of all the parts will be important.

[OriginalRen]

6 hours ago, Polycentric said:

I feel like simply removing the CG section and Sound Mode of the extras Mode is a very awkward way to make a distinction between a 'standard' and 'deluxe' version of a VN, especially if they're already considered to be normally included in any VN. I totally agree with Nosebleed that it would seem strange to have a large enough price difference between the two versions to justify the troubles of making two distinct versions with the options of DLCs. Of course we can't draw any concrete conclusions before actual prices are released, as those would be the deciding factor in justification.

I do like the idea of making these games more modular. Being able to buy a stripped down version of a game, especially if you're not sure whether or not you'll enjoy it is nice. However it's easy to see this separation of content as a money grab which is honestly kind of frightening. Also I think that phrasing the full game as 'deluxe' is slightly misleading because in reality it's just what would normally be offered.

As for the All-Ages aspect, it's to be expected considering KS and Steam rules. In my opinion the h-scenes weren't super important or outstanding in general. We'll have to wait and see how FW handles the whole scene that's integral to the story and Kenichi. Hopefully they don't just give an awkward roundabout description of the actual scene and instead find an interesting way to resolve the issue. 

I'm happy that this game is getting an official localization. Whether or not the localization is successful depends on how FW connects to the fans and adresses their concerns. Also, the pricing of all the parts will be important.

A Japanese company is localizing a Japanese game. PC games cost 8,800 - 9,200 yen in Japan. I wouldn't be surprised if the price is expensive, but I could be wrong. Also, no VN company should ever "remove" shit from a game such as a CG gallery. That would never fly in Japan for any eroge being pitched, so why the hell does Front Wing think it's some good move here? It's almost insulting to be honest, as if they assume we are all idiots.

A very important thing to note here:

Japanese people do not blatantly like to say no unless required. The "discussion" is just a polite way of saying "sorry, that will not happen" in my opinion.

[Chuee]

23 minutes ago, OriginalRen said:

A Japanese company is localizing a Japanese game. PC games cost 8,800 - 9,200 yen in Japan. I wouldn't be surprised if the price is the cost is expensive, but I could be wrong. Also, no VN company should ever "remove" shit from a game such as a CG gallery. That would never fly in Japan for any eroge being pitched in Akiba, so why the hell does Front Wing think it's some good move here? It's almost insulting to be honest, as if they assume we are all idiots and don't understand how eroge work.

Because they can do it on steam. It's impossible to section off different parts of the game in a physical release, otherwise they'd probably try something like this. 

On the topic, I think it's interesting to note that Akabei isn't cutting the voices like they did with G-Senjou. I'd reckon this is because that idea didn't work out nearly as well as they thought it did, probably because people actually value voices, so now they're going to cut something more insignificant to the overall game so they can justify making a lower-priced version. 

[OriginalRen]

1 hour ago, Chuee said:

Because they can do it on steam. It's impossible to section off different parts of the game in a physical release, otherwise they'd probably try something like this. 

On the topic, I think it's interesting to note that Akabei isn't cutting the voices like they did with G-Senjou. I'd reckon this is because that idea didn't work out nearly as well as they thought it did, probably because people actually value voices, so now they're going to cut something more insignificant to the overall game so they can justify making a lower-priced version. 

I'm not a business expert, but I fail to see how a CG gallery costs money or space for that matter. You already own the rights to use the images provided in the game, so is there some rule that only allows them to use the original work a certain number of times? Are artists charging the company money every time art is displayed on screen?

2 hours ago, Polycentric said:

I feel like simply removing the CG section and Sound Mode of the extras Mode is a very awkward way to make a distinction between a 'standard' and 'deluxe' version of a VN, especially if they're already considered to be normally included in any VN. I totally agree with Nosebleed that it would seem strange to have a large enough price difference between the two versions to justify the troubles of making two distinct versions with the options of DLCs. Of course we can't draw any concrete conclusions before actual prices are released, as those would be the deciding factor in justification.

I do like the idea of making these games more modular. Being able to buy a stripped down version of a game, especially if you're not sure whether or not you'll enjoy it is nice. However it's easy to see this separation of content as a money grab which is honestly kind of frightening. Also I think that phrasing the full game as 'deluxe' is slightly misleading because in reality it's just what would normally be offered.

As for the All-Ages aspect, it's to be expected considering KS and Steam rules. In my opinion the h-scenes weren't super important or outstanding in general. We'll have to wait and see how FW handles the whole scene that's integral to the story and Kenichi. Hopefully they don't just give an awkward roundabout description of the actual scene and instead find an interesting way to resolve the issue. 

I'm happy that this game is getting an official localization. Whether or not the localization is successful depends on how FW connects to the fans and adresses their concerns. Also, the pricing of all the parts will be important.

What I think Japan will fail to understand here is that there is nothing wrong with using sexual incest as a theme in the visual novel. If you simply describe it and make it important for his character development, then it should be allowed. Rape and murder are common themes in a lot of traumatizing genres, so I don't see why it's a big deal here. As long as they don't include actual imagery, I think it's fine.

[Polycentric]

42 minutes ago, Chuee said:

On the topic, I think it's interesting to note that Akabei isn't cutting the voices like they did with G-Senjou. I'd reckon this is because that idea didn't work out nearly as well as they thought it did, probably because people actually value voices, so now they're going to cut something more insignificant to the overall game so they can justify making a lower-priced version. 

I think the reason that voices were cut were because of associated licensing costs with the voices which I suppose aren't an issue with Sharin.

 

33 minutes ago, OriginalRen said:

I'm not a business expert, but I fail to see how a CG gallery costs money or space for that matter. You already own the rights to use the images provided in the game, so is there some rule that only allows them to use the original work a certain number of times?

This is what is worrying to me. The things included in the extra mode are usually provided as per norms already. By removing what's already expected seems like a money grab. Any significant price difference for the DLCs probably over-evaluates the actual value of the content, since to make the standard and deluxe version distinct choices I would expect at least a $5-10 difference just for the CGs and Sound Mode. And if the price difference is very low, there's probably no reason of going through all the trouble of making the two versions and DLCs in the first place for a $1-2 difference.

As for sexual content I feel like the exclusion is in part by the rules imposed by KS and Steam which are unfortunate. I totally agree that using sexual trauma as a central plot point is effective, but I'm worried that FW's attempt to censor/workaround the all-ages limitation will be shoddy. 

[Zenophilious]

7 minutes ago, Polycentric said:

As for sexual content I feel like the exclusion is in part by the rules imposed by KS and Steam which are unfortunate. I totally agree that using sexual trauma as a central plot point is effective, but I'm worried that FW's attempt to censor/workaround the all-ages limitation will be shoddy. 

Those rules are a joke.  Degica and MiKandi both explicitly stated, pre-Kickstarter, that there would be official, 18+ patches for the Steam version.  HuniePop (official patch) and Nekopara Vol. 1 (unofficial patch) both have 18+ patches, and Valve hasn't nuked either of them.  FrontWing has no excuse.

[OriginalRen]

6 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

Those rules are a joke.  Degica and MiKandi both explicitly stated, pre-Kickstarter, that there would be official, 18+ patches for the Steam version.  HuniePop (official patch) and Nekopara Vol. 1 (unofficial patch) both have 18+ patches, and Valve hasn't nuked either of them.  FrontWing has no excuse.

It's just fear. Japan does not want another incident regarding adult content. No offense to the country, but their idea of "acceptable" is and always will be unacceptable to certain countries around the world.

[sanahtlig]

9 hours ago, Nosebleed said:

I guess it will come down to how they price these 2 versions. But the thought of giving a price tag to a CG gallery is quite jarring for me regardless.

They already priced the full version: $20 for Kickstarter backers.  I'm not sure what people are gnashing their teeth about.

9 hours ago, Rooke said:

It would be difficult if Frontwing were just cutting scenes.

This statement from Professor Rooke shall be forever enshrined for future generations.

 

8 hours ago, Maxel said:

Let's look at the cost breakdown now:

Localization costs of Grisaia SERIES - 64,000$ (Frontwing + SP) (50h+/10h+/10h+ = 70h+)

Localization costs of Clannad - 56,000$ (Key + SP) (50h+)

Localization costs of Muv-Luv TRILOGY - 57,500$ (Age + Degica) (30h+/50h+ = 80h+)

Localization costs of Root Double - 36,450$ (Regista + Lemnisca/SP) (50h+)

Localization costs of Sharin no Kuni - 49,000$ (Frontwing) (10h+)

Sharin no Kuni isn't a monstrous sized visual novel, it doesn't have 100,000 lines of text, yet looks like editing of a translation is quite costly, especially such high quality editing that this VN will probably receive.

Let's move further. Development costs 35,000$ I really do wonder where it goes? This visual novel was already translated, engine is old and well-known, because of this there shouldn't be much to do to make it run on english language Windows? Let's also add 7,000$ to that for creating a kickstarter page, and... yeah. There we have 140,000$, it's totally reasonable amount.

Congratulations, this is the only reasonable argument I've seen that Frontwing is ripping people off.  I guess backer rewards could be similarly criticized, but those are ALWAYS overpriced.  The basic cost breakdown is supposed to accurately represent actual costs.

Also worth noting is that Libra of the Vampire Princess's translation costs were $62.5k (50% of $125k, >50hr title, translated from scratch by experienced professionals).  Libra's campaign was initially criticized for the translation costs being too high (they were later adjusted to these levels).

[Chuee]

2 hours ago, OriginalRen said:

I'm not a business expert, but I fail to see how a CG gallery costs money or space for that matter. You already own the rights to use the images provided in the game, so is there some rule that only allows them to use the original work a certain number of times? Are artists charging the company money every time art is displayed on screen?

That's the entire point of it. Cut out something that doesn't really need to be there so they can put a lower-priced version. If you cut out something important (voices), you might dissuade people from buying that version, but if you cut out something miniscule they might bite. Granted I think the idea is dumb and I doubt they're going to make more money because of it. 

[WinterfuryZX]

Sharin is longer, at the very least 20h+ long.

[VirginSmasher]

I honestly don't care if they don't have h scenes. The h scenes in Sharin No Kuni felt like they were shoved in there without any thought. As for the Kickstarter, I don't trust them being able to reTL everything by September so I won't be supporting this one.

[Darklord Rooke]

1 hour ago, sanahtlig said:

They already priced the full version: $20 for Kickstarter backers.  I'm not sure what people are gnashing their teeth about.

I must have missed that. That's fairly cheap, in any case