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Sharin no Kuni Prefundia page is up


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45 minutes ago, WinterfuryZX said:

Sharin is longer, at the very least 20h+ long.

It certainly isn't 10h long, same with Grisaia Meikyuu and Rakuen. I haven't played them all, so I used times from vndb. That doesn't change the fact that they're taking this amount of money for "editing" terrible translation, and they will release the product on Steam in September. Assuming that KS will end in July, and that's when they will gather the team, I don't think FW will do it before KS, because what if KS fail? That gives the team July and... ? September? Well, okay, it will be the greatest masterpiece people ever paid for then. For 50k$ they should be able to hire profesional team consisiting of 1/2 translators and 1 editor for 2-4 months, because that's how long it would probably take translating 20h~~ VN, working on it full time, maybe less, maybe more. If they are willing to pay for editing this terrible translation (July/September) for 2 months of work, 50k$ that's really, really generous of them. Some translators don't earn that much :(

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I am still confused by this DLC thing, the CG Gallery and Sound Mode should cost (much) less than 10 dollars and that would be a difference almost insignificant and this decision is pissing off some people. I cannot see how they will make more profit with this.

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3 hours ago, Caio000 said:

I am still confused by this DLC thing, the CG Gallery and Sound Mode should cost (much) less than 10 dollars and that would be a difference almost insignificant and this decision is pissing off some people. I cannot see how they will make more profit with this.

That's just it.  No one outside the fanbase can understand why fans are annoyed at the existence of a lower-priced version with features removed--a version which isn't even being offered to Kickstarter backers.

Frontwing wants to sell to people who will only buy VNs at low prices, but also sell to traditional fans at higher prices.  I don't see why this is so hard to understand.  Note that this is EXACTLY how the adult/non-adult version differentiation is used to milk the traditional fanbase while still appealing to those who don't want to pay $40 for a text game.  There's no plans for an adult version, so they had to find a different way to accomplish the desired price differentiation.

Artificial product differentiation is very common.  In the PC hardware market, companies will disable functionality at the hardware level simply to create a lower-priced version.  Let me repeat: they'll irreversibly sabotage their own product simply to split the product into two price categories.

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12 hours ago, sanahtlig said:

That's just it.  No one outside the fanbase can understand why fans are annoyed at the existence of a lower-priced version with features removed--a version which isn't even being offered to Kickstarter backers.

Frontwing wants to sell to people who will only buy VNs at low prices, but also sell to traditional fans at higher prices.  I don't see why this is so hard to understand.  Note that this is EXACTLY how the adult/non-adult version differentiation is used to milk the traditional fanbase while still appealing to those who don't want to pay $40 for a text game.  There's no plans for an adult version, so they had to find a different way to accomplish the desired price differentiation.

Artificial product differentiation is very common.  In the PC hardware market, companies will disable functionality at the hardware level simply to create a lower-priced version.  Let me repeat: they'll irreversibly sabotage their own product simply to split the product into two price categories.

Are you just an expert at everything, because you seem to have this notion that you understand how the entire business model works in the game industry and beyond. I won't say you're wrong, but just consider the possibility that it's absolutely retarded to remove features that are integral to the game. It's a visual novel. Remove the visual aspect, and you take away the whole point of the entire game. All this reminds me of is that stupid "preorder tier shit" that Deus Ex Machina did on Steam not long ago. Pay more money, and get more features!

This is why I hate Kickstarters for video games and visual novels, because all it really is is a preorder for something you don't even know will turn out to be that good.

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45 minutes ago, OriginalRen said:

 but just consider the possibility that it's absolutely retarded to remove features that are integral to the game. It's a visual novel. Remove the visual aspect, and you take away the whole point of the entire game.

They’re not removing the visual part of the novel, nor are they removing anything integral to the game - the experience of playing through the story doesn’t change once the CG gallery is removed.

Sorry, but at best it's a desired extra.

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9 minutes ago, Rooke said:

They’re not removing the visual part of the novel, nor are they removing anything integral to the game - the experience of playing through the story doesn’t change once a CG gallery is no longer included.

Sorry, but at best it's a desired extra.

I guess they can reduce the amount of save slots to 3 too because "the experience of playing through the story doesn’t change"

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4 minutes ago, Kiriririri said:

I guess they can reduce the amount of save slots to 3 too because "the experience of playing through the story doesn’t change"

To view the CG gallery, you first have to stop reading the novel. The reader is therefore no longer participating in the storytelling process, but is at best recalling parts of the story you enjoy. Or maybe just gazing at the pretty art. Therefore it doesn't effect someone's experience playing through the story.

The number of save slots can be argued to be directly impacting the ability to navigate through a novel, I suppose, maybe. I would entertain the argument that this would modify someone's experience reading a novel, mainly because I haven't really thought about it. I wouldn't entertain the notion that a CG gallery modifies your experience of the story, though.

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Just now, Rooke said:

To view the CG gallery, you first have to stop reading the novel. The reader is therefore no longer participating in the storytelling process, but is at best recalling parts of the story you enjoy. Or maybe just gazing at the pretty art. Therefore it doesn't effect someone's experience playing through the story.

The number of save slots can be argued to be directly impacting the ability to navigate through a novel, I suppose, maybe. I would entertain the argument that this would modify someone's experience reading a novel, mainly because I haven't really thought about it. I wouldn't entertain the notion that a CG gallery modifies your experience of the story, though.

What if I want to look at one certain CG that I saw yesterday while playing through the VN to understand the character's emotions better on this new scene I am just reading? A picture is worth a thousand words~ 

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1 minute ago, Kiriririri said:

What if I want to look at one certain CG that I saw yesterday while playing through the VN to understand the character's emotions better on this new scene I am just reading? A picture is worth a thousand words~ 

Load up the scene, which is what save slots are for (or doggy eared pages, which is what we used to do with books.) Some books definitely do need to be read/viewed multiple times to fully understand them, but once again removing the CG gallery doesn't prevent you from doing this.

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17 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Load up the scene, which is what save slots are for (or doggy eared pages, which is what we used to do with books.) Some books definitely do need to be read/viewed multiple times to fully understand them, but once again removing the CG gallery doesn't prevent you from doing this.

Guess I need to pay more money for the easier solution that is the CG gallery lol. Saving at each scene is not that easy, can't know what is needed for future and what is not.

 

Also this doesn't include Sharin but if they did this for moege it would be unacceptable because moeges are "sold for the art not the story" lol.

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1 hour ago, Kiriririri said:

Guess I need to pay more money for the easier solution that is the CG gallery lol. Saving at each scene is not that easy, can't know what is needed for future and what is not.

 

Also this doesn't include Sharin but if they did this for moege it would be unacceptable because moeges are "sold for the art not the story" lol.

I believe this strat would work with certain visual novels but if they did something like this with a nukige I doubt almost to no one would buy the game without the CG gallery because obvious reasons. :makina:

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Sekai Project's Q&A has come to cement the fact that it is AkabeiSoft that prefers a modular approach, not necessarily Frontwig.

With this in mind, I once again redirect any individuals against this business practice to the current facts:

  • Non integral (if you want to be picky, then yeah, this is up for debate) parts of the Visual Novel will be removed and be sold as DLC at a fraction of the price. Think CG and Music galleries.
  • Currently, on Prefundia, it is stated one will be able to attain the full game by backing the project for a mere 20 dollars. This considerably reasonable given the current pricing standards of visual novels of this kind.

 

Having established this, and back to the DLC situation, there are currently two possible options that are theorized:

  • OPTION A

The game will sell at the current Western market norm* for a visual novel of this calibre (about 40-50 dollars), after which you can, for an added amount, buy the DLC. The total amount will be higher than the current western market standard.

This is the "moneygrab" option most people fear with no evidence. In fact, so far as theorizing goes, one could even say there's evidence against this: AkabeiSoft's previous officially released Visual Novel, "G-Senjou no Maou" also offered DLC. The game could be bought at a markedly reasonable price with no voices (about 20 dollars), or include them as DLC for the standard VN price of about 40 dollars.

I do understand that, setting this precedent may later down the line lead to bad practices. See the western market.

  • OPTION B

The game will sell at a cheaper price than the current standard (less then 40 dollars), after which you can, for an added amount, buy the DLC. The total amount should equal the current western market standard.

This is the more reasonable approach some individuals are hoping for. If G-Senjou has set any sort of precedent, this is the approach AkabeiSoft, and therefore Frontwig, will opt for.

 

Until the pricing is out, I believe that any accusations of moneygrabs and removing essential VN components are entirely baseless. I, for one, am always welcome to more competitors in the localisation scene.

----

Regarding the matter of H-Scenes, Sekai Project claims AkabeiSoft is not interested in bringing them to the west. I won't try to bend your principles if you're against censoring VN's, but sometimes the localisation company is simply not to blame.

 

*VN's like CLANNAD, Grisaia and G-Senjou set the norm for VN's of this size, quality and renown on Steam. This is, of course, debatable.

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The point remains, this has nothing to do with the fact that the CG gallery or anything pointless has been removed. Had they not said anything and just removed it, none of this would matter. I would get the game, be upset the gallery was removed, but in the long run not give a shit. The fact they needed to point out the fact I can get a deluxe edition and that it was removed is what upsets me and makes me feel they are just "augmenting" my order. Remember that whole augmented preorder bullshit?

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13 minutes ago, OriginalRen said:

The point remains, this has nothing to do with the fact that the CG gallery or anything pointless has been removed. Had they not said anything and just removed it, none of this would matter. I would get the game, be upset the gallery was removed, but in the long run not give a shit. The fact they needed to point out the fact I can get a deluxe edition and that it was removed is what upsets me and makes me feel they are just "augmenting" my order. Remember that whole augmented preorder bullshit?

Would you care to enlighten me? Is it... Deus Ex or something?

Regardless, yes... I can see the chosen nomenclature raising issues. "deluxe: haha, you aren't getting the 'complete' version"
Personally, I couldn't care less what they called it, but they may be appealing to the VN otaku mentality of always having the biggest, most exorbitant, and premier version available. You have seen how otakus are willing to pay up for their hobby. In fact, you know it.
Not to generalise, of course, any other sort of gamer should prove able to do the same.
EDIT: Whilst in a stroke of genius, also appealing to the steam crowd who are less liberal with their wallets, but still liberal enough to fork over 20 dollars for a game that looks remotely interesting.

 

As for your other point, it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. Frontwig would have had their head put on a spike if they removed any sort of content without previous warning.

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4 hours ago, OriginalRen said:

Are you just an expert at everything, because you seem to have this notion that you understand how the entire business model works in the game industry and beyond. I won't say you're wrong, but just consider the possibility that it's absolutely retarded to remove features that are integral to the game. It's a visual novel. Remove the visual aspect, and you take away the whole point of the entire game. All this reminds me of is that stupid "preorder tier shit" that Deus Ex Machina did on Steam not long ago. Pay more money, and get more features!

I simply realize that one can't understand an industry without understanding the perspectives of both consumers and producers.  I actually put forth the effort to listen to both sides and try to see the world as they do.  Many VN fans only care about their own perspective as consumers.  That's fine, but you're not qualified to comment in any sort of objective manner if you can't see perspectives other than your own--and if I made a habit of doing that no one would ever take me seriously.

You imply that I'm arrogant to search for valid justifications for a company's actions rather than simply assume they're greedy, incompetent, or both when companies do something that triggers us as consumers.  If I'm arrogant, I suppose that means anyone in this discussion who thinks they know how to run a business better than Frontwing--who I daresay have more experience at this--must be arrogant as well.

With that out of the way, Rooke already nicely pointed out how the substance of your argument (the part that isn't just a personal attack on me) is utterly ridiculous.

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39 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

With that out of the way, Rooke already nicely pointed out how the substance of your argument (the part that isn't just a personal attack on me) is utterly ridiculous.

He also refused to acknowledge the possibility that it could set a very bad precedent for the selling of separate parts of VNs that already existed as a whole in Japan as DLC in the west, and why that could potentially be bad for consumers.  I care more about how it affects me and other consumers over Frontwing and AKBS2's future business ventures, and I really don't like either of them all that much, to be honest.  Also, several of Rooke's points rely on things that haven't been confirmed yet, like how much the "DLC" will cost and whether or not the translators they've found are decent.  You can't scorn people for being pessimistic with the logic of, 'Hey, you don't know that that's true yet!", and then turn around and do the exact same thing but instead put things in a positive light.  That's hypocritical and quite stupid.

I'd actually argue that it's a very bad move, considering who actually funds these Kickstarters.  I can assure you, they aren't random dudes on Steam that won't pay more than $20 for any visual novel, regardless of quality or length, who Frontwing/AKBS2 seem to be targeting with this idea.  Doing something that will piss off your fan base that you're relying on to actually give you the money to fund your project is actually pretty goddamn stupid, regardless of the intent.

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23 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

You can't scorn people for being pessimistic with the logic of, 'Hey, you don't know that that's true yet!", and then turn around and do the exact same thing but instead put things in a positive light.  That's hypocritical and quite stupid.

I'd actually argue that it's a very bad move, considering who actually funds these Kickstarters.  I can assure you, they aren't random dudes on Steam that won't pay more than $20 for any visual novel, regardless of quality or length, who Frontwing/AKBS2 seem to be targeting with this idea.  Doing something that will piss off your fan base that you're relying on to actually give you the money to fund your project is actually pretty goddamn stupid, regardless of the intent.

Kickstarter backers don't have the choice of the low-priced version.  The existence of such a version is completely irrelevant to them.  Frontwing could have never told backers they had plans for multiple Steam releases and backers would've had no grounds to complain--after all, backers would have received the product they were promised.  Consider that these Kickstarter campaigns rarely or never reveal what Steam pricing will be, even though you'd think that backers would want to know how much of a discount they're getting.  I never see anyone complaining about that.

It's funny that you imply I'm being hypocritical, when in fact my conclusion is the same as your's: don't fund this.  So you're saying it's hypocrisy to dismiss arguments that bolster my cause?  Isn't that the opposite of hypocrisy--following a chain of reasoning even when it undermines my position?

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9 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

I'd actually argue that it's a very bad move, considering who actually funds these Kickstarters.  I can assure you, they aren't random dudes on Steam that won't pay more than $20 for any visual novel, regardless of quality or length, who Frontwing/AKBS2 seem to be targeting with this idea.  Doing something that will piss off your fan base that you're relying on to actually give you the money to fund your project is actually pretty goddamn stupid, regardless of the intent.

The issue being that said people who fund their stuff, like you, I presume, are getting pissed off on the basis of nothing. Yet.

You argue against segmentation because the west went the bad way with it... I'd love to counter-argue, but I really can't. It is a possibility.

 

What I can do, however, is point out that given the possible intent, and given the lack of evidence, there's absolutely no reason to call Frontwing and AkabeiSoft the scum of the Earth and lords of all that is evil, as some people have been doing. Yet.

There is some reason, if you really hold it against this type of DLC, not to fund the kickstarter, but none to badmouth them.

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36 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

Kickstarter backers don't have the choice of the low-priced version.  The existence of such a version is completely irrelevant to them.  Frontwing could have never told backers they had plans for multiple Steam releases and backers would've had no grounds to complain--after all, backers would have received the product they were promised.  Consider that these Kickstarter campaigns rarely or never reveal what Steam pricing will be, even though you'd think that backers would want to know how much of a discount they're getting.  I never see anyone complaining about that.

It's funny that you imply I'm being hypocritical, when in fact my conclusion is the same as your's: don't fund this.  So you're saying it's hypocrisy to dismiss arguments that bolster my cause?  Isn't that the opposite of hypocrisy--following a chain of reasoning even when it undermines my position?

Yes, I'm already aware of that, considering that I have the ability to read and put in the effort to do so with the Prefundia page.  I'd appreciate it if you didn't arbitrarily assume I haven't read it. 

The problem is, the reaction that we can see so far is largely negative.  It straight up doesn't matter if they're not charging backers for the CG gallery and music menu, people very visibly don't like the fact that they're planning on doing so in the future, and some of them have to be potential Kickstarter backers.  Odds are some of them might have considered backing if that "DLC" bit wasn't there.  If people don't care that they can still get the full version by backing the Kickstarter and object to the "DLC" plan on principle, then the solution Frontwing seems to think will work won't do much of anything for those cases.  I don't know if they're just a very vocal minority, and nobody can really say for sure one way or the other.

I don't really care what the result is, I'm saying that ridiculing someone for doing one thing and going around and essentially doing the same thing afterwards is hypocritical.  That is the very definition of the word.  That fact that you agree with me on whether or not you should fund it is irrelevant.

34 minutes ago, Tiagofvarela said:

The issue being that said people who fund their stuff, like you, I presume, are getting pissed off on the basis of nothing. Yet.

You argue against segmentation because the west went the bad way with it... I'd love to counter-argue, but I really can't. It is a possibility.

 

What I can do, however, is point out that given the possible intent, and given the lack of evidence, there's absolutely no reason to call Frontwing and AkabeiSoft the scum of the Earth and lords of all that is evil, as some people have been doing. Yet.

There is some reason, if you really hold it against this type of DLC, not to fund the kickstarter, but none to badmouth them.

I'm arguing that defending them on the basis of nothing is just as stupid as condemning them on that very same basis.  If there's no basis for either option, then one can't be less stupid than the other to conclude.  I personally think that what they're suggesting is inherently bad, but I freely admit that that conclusion is based on nothing but my own cynicism and my current perception of Frontwing and AKBS2, as well as my general hatred for what DLC has become in the gaming industry.

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6 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

I'm arguing that defending them on the basis of nothing is just as stupid as condemning them on that very same basis.  If there's no basis for either option, than one can't be less stupid than the other to conclude.  I personally think that what they're suggesting is inherently bad, but I freely admit that that conclusion is based on nothing but my own cynicism and my current perception of Frontwing and AKBS2, as well as my general hatred for what DLC has become in the gaming industry.

Okay, I'm almost good.

Now, please understand that if this negativism and general baseless preconceptions weren't up in the air then I'd bet neither Rooke, nor sanahtlig, nor I would have raised our flags in their name. This whole "defending" movement is a direct response to the pointless pessimism. I wouldn't call it hypocritical, I'd call it counterarguing: I present a valid hypotisis. It is just as valid as yours. There is no evidence either way. Why are you immediately jumping to the conclusion everything is bad and evil when there's other valid and sound hypotises?

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52 minutes ago, Tiagofvarela said:

Okay, I'm almost good.

Now, please understand that if this negativism and general baseless preconceptions weren't up in the air then I'd bet neither Rooke, nor sanahtlig, nor I would have raised our flags in their name. This whole "defending" movement is a direct response to the pointless pessimism. I wouldn't call it hypocritical, I'd call it counterarguing: I present a valid hypotisis. It is just as valid as yours. There is no evidence either way. Why are you immediately jumping to the conclusion everything is bad and evil when there's other valid and sound hypotises?

So, what you're saying is that calling a point of view baseless and then supporting another point of view that's just as baseless is okay and not hypocritical in any way?  That makes absolutely no sense.  You're once again saying that the view you three support is valid for the same reasons the one you disagree with is invalid.  I really don't care why you "raised your flags", you're supporting doublethink when it benefits your point of view.  If you want to play white knights for Frontwing or support the underdog, just say so, and don't pretend like your point of view is objectively correct.  It's really grating and unappealing.  At least I can admit that my opinion isn't objectively based on facts (because, as Rooke has so frequently pointed out when it suits him, there are little to go around right now) and can concede that I'm not the authority on the matter.

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1 hour ago, Zenophilious said:

I don't really care what the result is, I'm saying that ridiculing someone for doing one thing and going around and essentially doing the same thing afterwards is hypocritical.  That is the very definition of the word.  That fact that you agree with me on whether or not you should fund it is irrelevant.

Ah, a classic ad hominem attack.  "Your argument is irrelevant (regardless of its logical validity) because you're a hypocrite".  No, like many people, you don't understand the nature of hypocrisy--you simply call "hypocrisy" when a person professes two viewpoints that you're unable to connect in a way that is obvious to you.

Likewise, people tend to confuse hypocrisy with simple inconsistency.  Hypocrisy is self-serving.  It undermines our confidence in the validity of any of the speaker's conclusions because it questions the methodology by which they were generated (similar to a conflict of interest in science).  Simple inconsistency, however, may result from an incomplete mental model or flawed reasoning.  Consistency issues can be patched simply by identifying the logical flaws, whereas hypocrisy undermines the premise of the argument itself (the argument is constructed starting from a desired endpoint, rather than being principled).

So no, it IS relevant that I make arguments even when they undermine my position because it demonstrates intellectual honesty, which is hypocrisy's counterpart.  I should also point out that other than playing the hypocrite card you haven't actually explained what about my argument you deem hypocritical.  I suspect if you clarified your construct of me and my arguments, we'd see the straws sticking out.  I could be wrong--but do you claim to understand my position better than I do?  And if that's not arrogance, then what is?

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17 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

So, what you're saying is that calling a point of view baseless and then supporting another point of view that's just as baseless is okay and not hypocritical in any way?  That makes absolutely no sense.  You're once again saying that the view you three support is valid for the same reasons the one you disagree with is invalid.  I really don't care why you "raised your flags", you're supporting doublethink when it benefits your point of view.  If you want to play white knights for Frontwing or support the underdog, just say so, and don't pretend like your point of view is objectively correct.  It's really grating and unappealing.  At least I can admit that my opinion isn't objectively based on facts (because, as Rooke has so frequently pointed out when it suits him, there are little to go around right now) and can concede that I'm not the authority on the matter.

Actually, several of my points revolved around that notion of ‘it’s unconfirmed, it could very well be this way.’ In other words, presenting an alternate, positive hypothesis that is as justifiable in its lack of evidence as yours, and NB’s, and others.

So let's go back to the beginning of your accusation:

2 hours ago, sanahtlig said:

With that out of the way, Rooke already nicely pointed out how the substance of your argument (the part that isn't just a personal attack on me) is utterly ridiculous.

2 hours ago, Zenophilious said:

 Also, several of Rooke's points rely on things that haven't been confirmed yet, like how much the "DLC" will cost and whether or not the translators they've found are decent.  You can't scorn people for being pessimistic with the logic of, 'Hey, you don't know that that's true yet!", and then turn around and do the exact same thing but instead put things in a positive light.  That's hypocritical and quite stupid.

See this right here? It's a misrepresentation of my argument, better known as a strawman. I have never stated things in a positive light, I've said again and again that you (and others) are making assumptions, and that IF the price of the deluxe version is reasonable, and IF the regular version + DLC = price of deluxe, there's nothing to complain about. 

I know it’s one of the internet’s favourite forms of dismissal, but you’re gonna have to do a bit better than that to paint us with the ‘hypocrisy’ brush.

EDIT: I should also point out that I'm one of the most pessimistic people I know. When you out-pessimistic me, you should start getting worried. Also, I try not to draw conclusions based on only pessimistic fears, then go wild with accusations and mud slinging. It happens, but I recognise it's not a good practice.

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5 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

So, what you're saying is that calling a point of view baseless and then supporting another point of view that's just as baseless is okay and not hypocritical in any way?  That makes absolutely no sense.  You're once again saying that the view you three support is valid for the same reasons the one you disagree with is invalid.  I really don't care why you "raised your flags", you're supporting doublethink when it benefits your point of view.  If you want to play white knights for Frontwing or support the underdog, just say so, and don't pretend like your point of view is objectively correct.  It's really grating and unappealing.  At least I can admit that my opinion isn't objectively based on facts (because, as Rooke has so frequently pointed out when it suits him, there are little to go around right now) and can concede that I'm not the authority on the matter.

I appear to have failed to convey my intent.

By providing another prespective I'm attempting to showcase that there are other options and that one should, therefore, not take any given side. It may be confusing how it appears I'm taking a side with the intent of showing how we are not at a point where we should take sides.

Never once have I said your point of view is invalid. I said it was baseless, just as baseless as mine, but they are both equally valid. Given the lack of evidence we should, then, not take any given side, because both are baseless, although valid and possible.

 

Okay... How to better explain it? You say Frontwing is evil incarante, I say they are the saviours of VN's in the West. Both are equally possible given what we know now: They could be trying to come up with a new and innovative business model... Or they could be trying to rob us blind.

What I'm trying to do, is point out the former is also possibility, and how one should therefore not jump to conclusions with the latter, as many were doing.

I am decidedly not telling you to believe Frontwing is trying to do good, I'm telling you that since they could be, hold on to your hate until there's evidence either way.

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