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Funyarinpa

I'm leaving Fuwanovel, because I'm starting to realize that this community and the VN community at large has hurt me.

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I remember I had an argument with you over some political views that touched upon some of the topics you mention here. Keeping that in mind and recalling how things transpired, I know better than to engage in another debate with you. Moreover, that's completely beside the point.

If you feel hurt, frustrated or whatever by being here, hey, just leave, that's your prerogative and there's no right or wrong. But just let me tell you one thing. No matter where you go, you'll find people whose opinions heavily conflict with yours. Some of them you'll find disgusting and will make you feel outraged. Maybe if you had the power to do so you'd become a tyrant and outright ban everything that doesn't fit your vision of the world. But you know what? The truth of the matter is that you are powerless, and no one cares about what you think is right. If you don't learn to accept that you'll feel uncomfortable anywhere and everywhere. Optionally you could create your own echo chamber, shun everyone that makes you feel offended and become the bigot that you accused other people of being. Again, your prerogative.

Let me remind you that in order not to leave everything to the subjective righteousness of a few, we have laws. As long as those laws are abided by, we must objectively accept that no human rights have been violated. You are obviously entitled to feel in a certain way about a subject, but by openly holding in contempt law-abiding people who just happen to differ in their views you come across as someone who prooobably should get off his high horse. Carelessly disliking people and making you unlikable yourself doesn't tend to yield very good results, that much I can unfortunately tell from experience, because I think as teenagers everyone stood there to some extent. Some people just drag it out for longer than it should last.

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5 hours ago, Thyndd said:

Let me remind you that in order not to leave everything to the subjective righteousness of a few, we have laws. As long as those laws are abided by, we must objectively accept that no human rights have been violated. You are obviously entitled to feel in a certain way about a subject, but by openly holding in contempt law-abiding people who just happen to differ in their views you come across as someone who prooobably should get off his high horse

Law adapts to society and not the other way around. It's an extremely fucking weak stance to take to say "if it's legal it's right" on anything. For example, in many countries you can discriminate against people for being gay, that doesn't mean discriminating against someone for being gay is ever a morally right thing to do. Something similar applies here. 

And even putting that aside, drawn child porn (sue me) IS actually illegal in many countries so what you're saying makes no sense whatsoever. Law, like anything else, is not objective. Unless you're saying fapping to pictures of kids should be morally right in one country and wrong in another just because of laws. (Even furthermore, going by the recent UN child porn guideline debacle, most countries *are* actually open to banning it all outright even if they haven't already done so.) 

Finally, the reason I didn't come in here, call you closet pedophiles and then just leave is because I wanted to discuss the harm these things can do in a respectful way and maybe get others to also reflect on their behavior and beliefs themselves, not because I'd just outlaw it if I could and call it a day. If it came down to that for you to understand what the fuck you do and support, though, I'd prefer a 'tyrant' that protects people over someone else that appeases people who just want to get off to anything and everything. 

 

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Wow! :mare:

Sad I didn't have the chance to know you and first thing I see is a post of you leaving, OP. I hope you change your mind and stay!! VN's as you still think I'm sure, have many beautiful things! There are incredibly good love stories for example if you like vanilla stuff! And no one forces you to like the other stuff or associate with the people which likes the other stuff right? (Also judging them by your moral standards is probably an innecesary, aggresive thing to do, as long as they don't try to force their values into you. This could cause trouble and fighting and people could be offended and no one would win anything out of it. This is not a good thing to do online or offline).

Why you should stay!:

VN's won't hurt your studies if you've self restraint to play them responsibly and keep your academics OK. If you want to keep the good things you had here, I encourage you to not put the blame on the VN's (or anything else) and train your capacity to be responsible.

About the biggots, yeah, there are biggots everywhere. But biggotry is banned I'm sure, so who cares if someone votes Trump or is a biggot as long as s/he behaves, like everyone else?

About the loli, well. Loli (real life) has been there and legal since Japan is Japan and faaar before VN's. I won't go to someone far away from my home and tell them to change their culture or judge their culture, because it's not mine, and because it isn't forced upon me; I've no right or reason to do so. You get nothing out of doing so. Also, because people is different everywhere, including japan, there are a lot of non loli, non loli-ish characters visual novels for you to play! Because a lot of people there doesn't like loli much either. But they don't feel the rightful necessity to erradicate it or be offended about it even if it's close to them. It makes me happy that they are tolerant people.

About the porn, there are even all ages games. And there are cheesy visual novels that are the epitome of romance and pure vanilla love, in the H aspect too. Why not enjoy those if those suit your taste, and leave the dark themed to those who enjoy those? I can recommend about 50 if you want!

TL;DR: I think you could stay! And take what you like of VN's and the community and enjoy that, and stop judging others, their tastes, or the VN's you don't like. You are free. They are free. Let's not judge each other because that is biggotry, conflict, and takes the things we like away from us all. Don't leave OP!

 

 

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2 hours ago, SkraalQ said:

I won't go to someone far away from my home and tell them to change their culture or judge their culture, because it's not mine, and because it isn't forced upon me; I've no right or reason to do so.

Oh yeah, you know, those honor killings in rural Turkey, where they kill women that were raped or had sex with someone before marriage, as disgrace to their families? Who are we to judge it? After all, it's an important part of their culture. :sachi:

And sorry for hyperbolic comparison, but after years of people trying to teach me how to be "culturally sensitive" I still fail to see how something being a part of culture or tradition should stop us from questioning it. I think we are all aware that Japanese culture enabling paedophiles (and mysoginy) is an actual problem, while the issue we're talking about now is not reforming Japanese people, but what should we do when that media, with all its fucked up baggage, comes to us. And the answer Funyarinpa pushes, as I understand it, is that we should at least be aware that we're promoting something questionable which might have toxic influence on people. That ignoring this fact is hard to justify from a moral standpoint and it should inform how we discuss/recommend stuff. I don't care that much, as I've dropped any pretence of being a decent person a while ago (I just don't have energy for activism, I barely have enough for living), but I think he has something of a point. :P

Edit: And BTW, pointing to a problem within a medium doesn't mean judging people that enjoy it or calling for banning stuff. Within the community, it's about discussion and awereness. I'm definitely above judging people... Outside maybe of those defending Hajimete no Okaa-san. Sorry mates, but actual pedophilia apologism & romanticised child rape and impregnation porn might be a bit over the line of what should be reasonably allowed. :P

Edited by Plk_Lesiak

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9 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Oh yeah, you know, those honor killings in rural Turkey, where they kill women that were raped or had sex with someone before marriage, as disgrace to their families? Who are we to judge it? After all, it's an important part of their culture. :sachi:

And sorry for hyperbolic comparison, but after years of people trying to teach me how to be "culturally sensitive" I still fail to see how something being a part of culture or tradition should stop us from questioning it. I think we are all aware that Japanese culture enabling paedophiles (and mysoginy) is an actual problem, while the issue we're talking about now is not reforming Japanese people, but what should we do when that media, with all its fucked up baggage, comes to us. And the answer Funyarinpa pushes, as I understand it, is that we should at least be aware that we're promoting something questionable which might have toxic influence on people. That ignoring this fact is hard to justify from a moral standpoint and it should inform how we discuss/recommend stuff. I don't care that much, as I've dropped any pretence of being a decent person a while ago (I just don't have energy for activism, I barely have enough for living), but I think he has something of a point. :P

No worries I get what you mean, but I believe the difference between someone getting killed and suffering and making this persons family and friends suffer is not really comparable to someone fapping to drawings in her/his room even if you call it an hyperbole.

You say japanese culture has a problem with this stuff. Statistics say otherwise; it would have a problem if there was a lot of child abuse, if actual people suffered, but that is not the case, as shown by statistics comparing to more moralistic countries. I understand you (or anyone) favours loli drawings rather than a lot of child abuse in their cultures, right? Given the statistics you could even think that in fact, giving those people loli content is helping on making less people suffer. As you said in a post before, the influence of this content on people is hard to determine, but looking at the statistics censorship is not making the black sheeps behave, but the contrary.

Anyway don't want to deviate the thread from OP's original intent, I'll be happy to talk about this with you on discord if you want @Plk_Lesiak ! :mare:

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22 minutes ago, SkraalQ said:

You say japanese culture has a problem with this stuff. Statistics say otherwise; it would have a problem if there was a lot of child abuse, if actual people suffered, but that is not the case, as shown by statistics comparing to more moralistic countries. I understand you (or anyone) favours loli drawings rather than a lot of child abuse in their cultures, right? Given the statistics you could even think that in fact, giving those people loli content is helping on making less people suffer. As you said in a post before, the influence of this content on people is hard to determine, but looking at the statistics censorship is not making the black sheeps behave, but the contrary.

Well, that's a bit of a stretch, espetially considering generally low crime rates in Japan and the question of whether child abuse gets reported as often as it is in the West. But, I'd have to do more reasearch than I have willpower for, if I didn't want to just speculate. Definitely the general attitudes are still way more murky there and the idea that bringing this media here, to a vastly different social context would replicate the "positive" effects is disputable. Not that I would advocate for censorship much, it's a very blunt tool that rarely hits the core of the problem. 

22 minutes ago, SkraalQ said:

Anyway don't want to deviate the thread from OP's original intent, I'll be happy to talk about this with you on discord if you want @Plk_Lesiak ! :mare:

I think this kind of was the original intent, discussing this stuff? But maybe you're right, it can become the "loli porn megathread" any minute now. :P

Edited by Plk_Lesiak

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Ugh, are we having yet another discussion about 2D vs 3D again or something...?

Is it really THAT difficult for people to keep their 2D mentality in check and not let that influence their thinking in real life? It's perfectly normal for a person to enjoy 2D loli stuff, and still want to beat the hell out of a real life pedophile.

Also, I mean, this is pretty much like "I find people killing each other gross and disgusting, so I will just boycott the whole movie community together".

It's perfectly normal for a person to have something they can't stomach. Doesn't mean they have to spread that hate to everything associated to it.

I can't handle NTR. That shit disgusts me. But I still enjoy everything else that is not NTR like normal.

It's not that people "normalized" this and that. People just learned to just, ignore things that they have no interest in and let the person be, that's all.

Edited by Satsuki

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12 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

I think this kind of was the original intent, discussing this stuff? But maybe you're right, it can become the "loli porn megathread" any minute now. :P

lol, 怖ー! :mare: I just hope he can keep enjoying VN's despite anyone's opinions or tastes, because there are a lot of VN's that OP would enjoy.. He doesn't have to like every VN or share tastes and opinions with everyone.. :amane:

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10 hours ago, Thyndd said:

I remember I had an argument with you over some political views that touched upon some of the topics you mention here. Keeping that in mind and recalling how things transpired, I know better than to engage in another debate with you. Moreover, that's completely beside the point.

If you feel hurt, frustrated or whatever by being here, hey, just leave, that's your prerogative and there's no right or wrong. But just let me tell you one thing. No matter where you go, you'll find people whose opinions heavily conflict with yours. Some of them you'll find disgusting and will make you feel outraged. Maybe if you had the power to do so you'd become a tyrant and outright ban everything that doesn't fit your vision of the world. But you know what? The truth of the matter is that you are powerless, and no one cares about what you think is right. If you don't learn to accept that you'll feel uncomfortable anywhere and everywhere. Optionally you could create your own echo chamber, shun everyone that makes you feel offended and become the bigot that you accused other people of being. Again, your prerogative.

Let me remind you that in order not to leave everything to the subjective righteousness of a few, we have laws. As long as those laws are abided by, we must objectively accept that no human rights have been violated. You are obviously entitled to feel in a certain way about a subject, but by openly holding in contempt law-abiding people who just happen to differ in their views you come across as someone who prooobably should get off his high horse. Carelessly disliking people and making you unlikable yourself doesn't tend to yield very good results, that much I can unfortunately tell from experience, because I think as teenagers everyone stood there to some extent. Some people just drag it out for longer than it should last.

YOU GET RID OF THE SANTA HAT IN YOUR AVATAR TOO.

hAGM9IZ.png

 

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1 hour ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

I think this kind of was the original intent, discussing this stuff? But maybe you're right, it can become the "loli porn megathread" any minute now. :P

Let’s keep that from happening! Wouldn’t want to have to hide a goodbye thread from a user because of it being derailed into a hot mess. 

So far the discussion is mostly on topic, so it’s fine like this, but do try to keep long discussions about the overall topic of 2D vs 3D, lolis etc away from this thread. (This being a general warning to everyone, and not one specifically aimed at you, ofc.) 

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5 hours ago, Funyarinpa said:

Law adapts to society and not the other way around. It's an extremely fucking weak stance to take to say "if it's legal it's right" on anything. For example, in many countries you can discriminate against people for being gay, that doesn't mean discriminating against someone for being gay is ever a morally right thing to do. Something similar applies here. 

Yes, and laws don't have accomodate to YOU. If it's legal it's not necessarily right, but what YOU think it's right is worthless. If you really want to change the law, study politics, work your way up the ladder to a power position, get elected democratically by the citizens of your country, and then, with society's approval, change what you think must be changed.

As long as I'm not breaking the law of my country or the place I'm currenly in (and this even applies to fuwanovel), yes, I'm not doing anything wrong by any objective standard. I hope you realize how dangerous it is to say otherwise. I hope you do, but I know you most likely don't, because I can already tell you are one of those people who believe there's nothing wrong with mob justice.

5 hours ago, Funyarinpa said:

Finally, the reason I didn't come in here, call you closet pedophiles and then just leave is because I wanted to discuss the harm these things can do in a respectful way and maybe get others to also reflect on their behavior and beliefs themselves, not because I'd just outlaw it if I could and call it a day.

Honestly the fact that you put forward the fact that 'fuwanovel allows Trump supporters' as a reason -even if you made clear it's not your main reason- for wanting to leave, says a lot about your stance. Just for the record, I'm not even American and couldn't care less about EEUU's politics, but I know for a fact that he's been elected democratically, so allow me to ask who the hell are you to shit on a big chunk of EEUU's population? I can't see where's the respectful part about calling Trump voters bigots, and expressing that, in your opinion, they shouldn't even be allowed in a forums that has nothing to do with politics, since, in your words, that's condoning bigotry.

The same goes for lolicon content and violent sexual content. Maybe you can't easily separate reality and fiction, but I can assure you that most of the people who consume lolicon content are not attracted to real children, and the wet dreams of most people who consume rape content is not raping a real woman. Insinuating otherwise is insulting people by calling them potential criminals. 

Edited by Thyndd

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Basically, this whole topic is a simple indirect kink-bashing under an imaginary excuse of "normalising" something, the thing you can see on those weird twitter accounts with kirby avatars whose day usually consists of going around and attacking people for enjoying the stuff they might consider problematic. I'm pretty sure the thoughtlessly hysterical stance of Funya is very harmful to humanity in general, a thing that leads to censoring any stuff the arbitrary hivemind doesn't like, an endless pitfall of sorts. You don't like certain themes and imagery? Avoid it. It's very easy to do nowadays. Making yourself look like a weird victim simply because you aren't capable of responsible consuption is such a childish thing to do that it doesn't deserve any real discussion. I am not interested in reading stuff like Euphoria, Starless or Maggot baits but that doesn't mean that community is somehow bad for liking those or that people should be banned from the discussion. The only possible advise here is to grow up and learn to differentiate reality from fiction.

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I guess someone really like OriginalRen way so much that the OP did follow his way to write a thread before leave, and left some personal baggage here. Well take your time to sort of your issue, and possibly not read this thread until you calmed down a lot (You're still young after all).

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1 hour ago, Funyarinpa said:

- snip -

People is and always will be so different and have many different opinions, we cannot avoid this. Despite that, we must try to respect each other and allow everyone to express what they think. We must protect the right of everyone to stay away from things/people they dislike too, that way nothing is forced upon no one and everyone is happy and everyone is free to voice their opinion on stuff.

Someone can hurt you with words. You can ignore this someone then and befriend others whose words you like.

No one forces you to share their views, and no one forces you to argue with them about how yours are better. If this hurts you, you can just ignore it. If you feel the psychological NEED to impose your morals upon them despite being able to ignore it, it is you who is making a problem for yourself.

Please think about it coldly, realise you can just ignore the people and the VN's you dislike, and enjoy what is good for you and be happy.

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16 hours ago, Clephas said:

Lolis are cute, loli sex is disgusting...  Worse is the absolute worship of loliconism that was particularly prevalent during the opening days of Fuwa.  It disgusts me that Maitetsu got localized, and it endangers the community as a whole.  It often amazes me how blind people are to how eroge effect them.

Hell, I used to be a prude, now I just know where my boundaries are.  That's a much bigger change than you'd think, considering it mostly began after I started playing eroge.  It isn't just loliconism, it's ryona and constant justification of rapegames... I feel fouled whenever I come across that stuff while browsing dlsite or vndb... 

Edit:  Loliconism is prevalent throughout all otaku communities, though it was much worse five to six years ago.  A lot of the reason why it is (finally) fading away is because less lolicon material is being produced by the commercial industry in Japan (though the doujin circles are as lively as ever).   There was a time when someone seriously saying lolicon is disgusting could get shouted down in any given otaku community.  Now, we've transitioned to an era where no one really wants to talk about it, which is moderately less distasteful, if no less problematic. 

I'd never learned how you stood on this, and given how much I respect your knowledge on the industry, I'm relieved and happy to hear we're on the same page.

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I've unlocked the thread again, and some problematic posts were hidden. Please try to keep the discussion civil from now on. It's okay to be passionate about something, but insulting each other achieves nothing, will only result in the thread getting locked/ hidden again.

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@Funyarinpa the exact post I wanted to respond to was hidden and I'll leave up to @Dergonu whether my response is justified, but are you sure you want to use this "anger and disgust" argument? Disgust is nr 1 emotion driving every kind of bigotry. And as much as I disagree with many people arguing with you, the more agitated you get, the more that is exactly what you're starting to look like - a bigot, labelling broad categories of people as harmful degenerates because they reject your moral viewpoints. Asking them to keep their offensive compulsions private, as they supposedly endanger the society by showing them, exactly like conservatives always pushed gay people to do.

Obviously, it's not a perfect parallel, but I just want to to put what you're doing into perspective. You ask people to show empathy and follow with condemnation and judgment. You go on emotional tirades instead of making a case for yourself - I mean, who exactly the loli discussions on niche forums are hurting? Who is exposed to them against their will? You do all the things that makes me cringe away from the social justice movements despite agreeing with them on the vast majority of stuff - you try to sanitize the public sphere instead of fighting to educate people to do better. You show contempt that only makes the other side feel threatened and resentful. And even if you're morally, and maybe even practically right... That's simply not how you approach people. There's no point to any of it, if you behave like that.

Edited by Plk_Lesiak

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1 minute ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

@Funyarinpa the exact post I wanted to respond to was hidden and I'll leave up to @Dergonu whether my response is justified, but are you sure you want to use this "anger and disgust" argument? Disgust is nr 1 emotion driving every kind of bigotry. And as much as I disagree with many people arguing with you, the more agitated you get, the more that is exactly what you're starting to look like - a bigot, labelling broad categories of people as harmful degenerates because they reject your moral viewpoints. Asking them to keep their offensive compulsions private, as they supposedly endanger the society, exactly like conservatives always pushed gay people to do.

Obviously, it's not a perfect parallel, but I just want to to put what you're doing into perspective. You ask people to show empathy and follow with condemnation and judgment. You go on emotional tirades instead of making a case for yourself - I mean, who exactly the loli discussions on niche forums are hurting? Who is exposed to them against their will? You do all the things that makes me cringe away from the social justice movements despite agreeing with them on the vast majority of stuff - you try to sanitize the public sphere instead of fighting to educate people to do better. You show contempt that only makes the other side feel threatened and resentful. And even if you're morally, and maybe even practically right... That's simply not how you approach people. There's no point to any of it, if you behave like that.

Well, in defense of OP, it's very difficult to have a real discussion about the points he brings up when it's the mods who say that you are not allowed to discuss them, even if that's obviously the main intention of this topic. Otherwise he would've just said "I'm fed up with this community and I'm leaving. Goodbye" instead of writing a long winded post about things he believes that should change. 

It's also very little productive, because honestly, this is all a matter of morality and morals shaming, and that's as subjective as it gets. Lolicon witch hunt is essentially telling people who don't get to decide what arouses them to not be aroused by lolis, because it's somehow wrong, in spite of not involving nor directly hurting anyone else. And I say 'else' because the only point OP made is that those people are hurting themselves. As I already said, though I believe my post has been hidden, that's a really condescending attitude that assumes that adult people are not competent enough to know what's harmful for them, while OP, for some reason at his tender 19 does know what's best for everyone. 

My position, as someone who doesn't have any fetishes nor sexual paraphilias that I know of, is that people should mind their own business. For stuff that involves the protection of real children and people in general we fortunately have laws. I get that you feel disgusted by some things. Everyone does. But going out of your way to shame and try to 'educate' people into your vision of the world reminds me of the treatment homosexual people got in the past because a large majority found them disgusting, even if they weren't hurting anyone. 

And don't you dare say that I support pedophilia or child abuse. Seriously, don't even try, because insults are the least you'll receive from me if you do. 

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@Funyarinpa

One of the central pillars around the formation of these eroge communities is the content. People all come here because they, for whatever reason, consume such content and want to discuss it or see others discuss it.
A large percentage of eroge has extreme content of the kind you are attempting to denounce and condemn.

The content itself, VNs and Eroge, covers many many areas, but the more extreme areas will naturally drive out those that cannot ignore them or enjoy them in the same way.

What remains is a community composed of people who tolerate or appreciate such content, or recognise that others do, accepting it.

If, one day, someone arrives and starts explaining how bad this all is, they are likely to get ignored or told they are wrong themselves. It would upturn the very base of the community that currently exists. If a ban on fictional content that were considered morally bankrupt were suddenly passed, 80% of the community would just leave and go somewhere else (Incidentally, I imagine people such as I and Plk_Lesiak would remain--though I cannot really speak for him--as long as some people remained).

Though I entirely understand what you are attempting to do here, I think it should come as no surprise that your position is not one shared by most people present here, and the amount of people that would change their views because of somebody else's story on the internet it somewhat low. The internet is a very tall barrier, and sometimes people can only get emotionally engaged/involved to things that occur near them/to them, or things that are similar to other events that have taken place near them.

If I were part of a country that regularly sacrificed a person for fun (gladiators-ish affair?), would everyone suddenly agree with me if I told them it was wrong to murder people? My answer would probably be no, and that is what I see on this thread as well.

----

Now, since you've gone to the trouble of exposing a lot of your personal views, I'll go ahead and do the same. Not something I usually do, because I believe it creates a lot of conflict that really isn't worth it.


I find that I am an extremely tolerant person, probably lack empathy on many aspects, and have an extreme belief that the end justifies the means.
This is why none of this kind of extreme content bothers me. I cannot even begin to imagine how it would hurt a person. Most of the talk about porn and sex are foreign to me. I have never masturbated and I am fairly certain at this point in my life that I will never engage in sexual activities (but I can't predict life). It is beyond my means to even begin to transfer all this fictional content into actual reality.
Therefore, I cannot empathise. I don't see how discussion of this content hurts others, even through your own story.

Your own story brings up two aspects, morality a feelings, as the main cause for the hurt:

Now, when you say that something is morally wrong, I will ask "Why is that?". "Hurting people is bad." "Why?" "It causes pain and suffering." "Why is that bad?" "..." -- There are many responses, but ultimately I believe that human life is only seen as precious because we are humans.
If I care about other human beings, I care on the level that I can empathise with them. "I wouldn't want that to happen to me." or "I like this person, so I don't want things that'd make them feel bad to happen to them. It'd make me feel bad too."
I like seeing other people happy or enjoying themselves. It is an enjoyable thing for me.

But ultimately, this is just a question of feelings. But who or what controls feelings? Are my feelings right? But what if everyone around me has different ones?

A lack of empathy. Is that a flaw? Is that something the person can fix? Is that the person's fault to begin with, or were they born this way? Should they be forced to fix it?
"I do not believe it is my responsibility to watch what I say on this space on internet. If others get hurt by it, that is their own fault for continuously reading/participating. Anyone who has come here has done so willingly, and, knowing what sorts of things are allowed here, has chosen to read on."
Is this lack of empathy? Or is it something else?

I don't know.

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8 minutes ago, Mr Poltroon said:

I do not believe it is my responsibility to watch what I say on this space on internet. If others get hurt by it, that is their own fault for continuously reading/participating. Anyone who has come here has done so willingly, and, knowing what sorts of things are allowed here, has chosen to read on."
Is this lack of empathy? Or is it something else?

I don't know.

Personally I believe it's a matter of intentionality. If it was the person's intention to hurt somebody's feelings, then yeah, it's lack of empathy. People just speaking their mind in a place they are rightfully allowed to do so, and someone getting hurt over it is just retarded. Well, not the 'getting hurt' part itself, that can happen to everyone (it should'nt actually, but it requires a lot of emotional stabilty which I can say that I don't personally have at this point of my life), but going of your way to tell everybody 'hey, your opinions hurt muh feelings, please stop! " certainly is. 

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49 minutes ago, Thyndd said:

Personally I believe it's a matter of intentionality. If it was the person's intention to hurt somebody's feelings, then yeah, it's lack of empathy. People just speaking their mind in a place they are rightfully allowed to do so, and someone getting hurt over it is just retarded. Well, not the 'getting hurt' part itself, that can happen to everyone (it should'nt actually, but it requires a lot of emotional stabilty which I can say that I don't personally have at this point of my life), but going of your way to tell everybody 'hey, your opinions hurt muh feelings, please stop! " certainly is. 

I think there's a bit more to that. What I like in the culture of political correctness (yes, I'm using the term unironically) is that it encourages self-reflection and being mindful of other people's feelings. That's what empathy is for me. For example, a group of people universally find some term offensive. I didn't know that, but if someone tells me that and it's a group that I have any kind of respect for, I won't use it, otherwise I'd be an asshole on purpose.

On the other hand we have the abomination of outrage culture and treating everything even slightly questionable as a scandal. Vide Attack Helicopter Dating Sim and the discussion about that, I think my posts there kind of missed the point, but the one thing that frustrated me is that intention and context seemed to lose all meaning. It's only the hypothetical person that might feel insulted by it and their overzealous advocates that matter. It goes to the bizarre extremes such as Kim Kardashian not being allowed to impersonate Diana Ross on Holloween party because of Jim Crow and blackface... I mean, how the fuck did we get here from the genuine defence of vulnerable groups?

With eroge we got to a similar point. There's a lot of content in it that I personally find objectionable and I don't really hide that. I openly argue for the availability of all-ages editions and would support replacing certain content for Western release (ex. Kara no Shoujo's rape scenes), if it was done with actual care. But the community never stopped me from enjoying the things I actually like and speaking my mind on all kinds of manners, while there are definitely those that would happily burn my entrainment with the whole forest of "questionable" otaku media. I mean, we just had one of the most wholesome-looking yuri VNs ever banned by Steam as potential child porn. An all-ages, light romance that teaches people Esperanto FFS. I don't want to whitewash all the creepy weirdness that comes from 4chan otaku and other fringes, but damn, reasonable discussion is simply dead by this point. If we're not going to be tolerant with each other, we can just all follow Funya and jump into a pit of fire - it's not like we have many other places to go to cultivate our hobbies, or enough people that share it to break into a dozen of factions.

EDIT: And one more thing that people seem to gloss over in Funyarinpa's story... He was a minor, as I assume, openly active in a porn community for years without anyone doing anything. As much as I believe that it's not really my place to police what other adults do and most of them are probably stable enough to not be influenced by all the vile crap, no middle schooler should read euphoria. We might not be able to stop them anyways, but eroge communities are not a place where anyone below 18 should be allowed into. We should take at least that much responsibility for what we're spearing around here (not that it matters much at this stage of Fuwa being dead, but it's a good lesson for the future).

Edited by Plk_Lesiak

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1 hour ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

Disgust is nr 1 emotion driving every kind of bigotry. And as much as I disagree with many people arguing with you, the more agitated you get, the more that is exactly what you're starting to look like - a bigot, labelling broad categories of people as harmful degenerates because they reject your moral viewpoints. Asking them to keep their offensive compulsions private, as they supposedly endanger the society by showing them, exactly like conservatives always pushed gay people to do.

I wrote this thread because I literally was personally hurt by the very people posting in this thread and their attitudes. I wanted to talk about how certain things we endorse and enable as a community can hurt people, because I've been hurt by this very same thing. 

That's not the same thing as conservatives repressing gay people. At all. Frankly, the comparison is a non-sequitur.

1 hour ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

who exactly the loli discussions on niche forums are hurting? Who is exposed to them against their will?

It hurts people who have been subjected to child sexual abuse (it retraumatizes them). Every single person who's not here to talk about lolis is exposed to them against their will. As you've acknowledged, this includes underage people. I've personally been hurt by this when I was underage (and don't even fucking TRY to come at me with your "but hurr your parents" defense). 

1 hour ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

you try to sanitize the public sphere instead of fighting to educate people to do better.

I've been trying to "fight to educate people to do better". That's why I told all of you that encouraging and spreading and normalizing lolicon talk has actively hurt me as a person. It was meant to be a personal confession, an admission that I've been hurt by a community that I used to adore, to maybe at least get some members of this community to reflect on the fact that the way extreme pornography is discussed in VNs and Fuwa can instill the wrong messages in people and maybe we shouldn't champion messages like that as a community BECAUSE THEY CAN DIRECTLY HURT REAL PEOPLE. Instead, I've been told that I'm to blame for being vulnerable and getting hurt (hint: I'm not the only underage person on here, and I've also never seen anyone filter any discussion whatsoever on here to adults), that saying "maybe we shouldn't allow some things" is equal to tyranny and dictatorship, and that I'm comparable to people trying to repress and shame LGBT people into submission because "it shouldn't be acceptable to get off to rape or drawings of children" is apparently comparable to "it shouldn't be acceptable for a man to love another man". How can you even equate these things? How can you see people being free to love others regardless of gender and people being able to see abuse, traumatization, even torture, as something sexy in any capacity as equal acts or things? Don't you realize how you need to say "BUT I'd never do it in real life" to only one of those things?

Frankly, this thread really was a fucking mistake, because I expected too much of this community. Apparently making sure people get to normalize harmful messages, situations and acts is more important to Fuwanovel than reflection on whether your actions can harm people. I'm not that disappointed that Fuwanovel allowed people to condone it, even though I hate it, that's this website's prerogative. I'm disappointed that it's something people would do, irrespective of if Fuwa allowed it or not. So my goal wasn't to get it banned on here or anything, either, I'd be taking this up directly with the mod team/administration/Tay if that was the case. No, I tried to talk about my own pain and my own doubts and my own regrets because I wanted to talk to the members of Fuwanovel. Instead, I got called a bigot because someone being disgusted that you can enjoy drawn child porn is apparently similar to someone being disgusted two guys can kiss. I tried to communicate my own regrets and doubts because I tried to educate people to do better.

I'll be honest- On a personal level, I find this shit disgusting, and reprehensible. To an extent, I'm slightly embarrassed I've ever been a member of this forum. I find it, and all of you lolicons, fucking gross. That's enough reason to leave.

The rest of my post beyond my thanks and "fuck the rest of y'all, I'm out" was precisely an attempt to educate people to do better, but I can't do that when almost everyone -even you- told me that my attempt to educate is an attack on freedom itself. 

1 hour ago, Thyndd said:

Personally I believe it's a matter of intentionality.

You can hurt people without intention, and people can tell you that they've been hurt by you. 

1 hour ago, Mr Poltroon said:

If, one day, someone arrives and starts explaining how bad this all is, they are likely to get ignored or told they are wrong themselves. It would upturn the very base of the community that currently exists. If a ban on fictional content that were considered morally bankrupt were suddenly passed, 80% of the community would just leave and go somewhere else (Incidentally, I imagine people such as I and Plk_Lesiak would remain--though I cannot really speak for him--as long as some people remained).

 

I agree that it'd shake the community deeply. But many communities, including niche enthusiast communities, can and do have deep-seated issues. That doesn't mean they aren't worth facing and exploring.

1 hour ago, Mr Poltroon said:

This is why none of this kind of extreme content bothers me. I cannot even begin to imagine how it would hurt a person. Most of the talk about porn and sex are foreign to me. I have never masturbated and I am fairly certain at this point in my life that I will never engage in sexual activities (but I can't predict life). It is beyond my means to even begin to transfer all this fictional content into actual reality.
Therefore, I cannot empathise. I don't see how discussion of this content hurts others, even through your own story.

I don't want to come across like I intend to shame you for not being a sexual person, at all. However, this might've been far clearer to you if you were a sexual person. The thing is, trivializing the significance of fictional depictions of sexual abuse makes that abuse seem like something tolerable or acceptable to enjoy. Imagine if a similar level of extreme fiction wasn't involved in porn but just... fiction. Imagine if you knew someone who sincerely, intensely enjoyed reading stories about the Nazis committing genocide. And they told you that they go on the internet and talk about how much they love reading Nazi fanfiction. And now think a step more generally and imagine that this Nazi fanfiction was in the form of short stories and you couldn't go on general short story forums without coming across people who kept talking about how much they enjoy Nazi fanfiction (and to be clear, this fanfiction is straight up reveling-in-gas-chambers, 1000% antisemitism, enjoying reading about someone die in agony sort of stuff). Then someone asks "but why are you writing and reading and enjoying stories about Nazis committing genocide where the genocide is presented as if the genocide was a good thing?" and they get the answer "real Jews aren't getting gassed, so it's fine, I don't condone actual Jews getting gassed". 

That's what it's like.

It's after leaving this place for a long time that I started to realize just how little understanding I had for why people could be disturbed by lolicon shit and similar porn. But the thing is, talking about it by saying "It's fiction so it's fine" and not a word more makes it seem like what you're condoning isn't a big deal at all. It understates the messages sent by such fiction itself -extreme sexism at a bare minimum- and whether you like it or not, and however much you shift the blame, communities like this actively encourage and enable actual abusers. I can assure you that there's a VN enthusiast pedophile out there who, encouraged by all the lolicon talk, has actually abused children because getting off to porn of children is normalized in this community. A pedophile can, and I'm sure does, find encouragement in the lolicon community because when you go, say, read a doujin manga that features children, the comments on the site you read that won't be about how the readers need to ensure that they aren't repressing actual pedophilic tendencies, it'll be about how "hot" or "well-drawn" or whatever it is. This is even unintentionally admitted by a lot of pro-lolicons, who often claim that having access to drawn child porn gives pedophiles a "healthy, victimless outlet" for their desires (this clearly implies people are aware that abusers can and do peruse abusive porn). With lolicon trash this is somewhat obvious, but with stuff like rape, it sometimes won't even be acknowledged that what's being portrayed and glorified and fetishized in a given porn is sexual assault. And this mentality is literally parallelled by actual rapists. People who watch a rape hentai enjoy seeing the woman feel powerless and violated, and real rapists very much enjoy the same thing. Hentai protagonists don't care about boundaries, or informed consent, or ensuring the safety of their partner, and neither do many abusive partners in the real world. Don't tell me that people don't have unrealistic standards -not only in terms of body appearance but also in terms of relationships- because of and reinforced by (most/all) porn, because it very obviously, very clearly and very prominently happens (an example is women getting groped on Japanese public transportation which has been sexualized to the point where it has literally become its own porn subgenre), and there's no way whatsoever that drawn porn avoids reinforcing such tropes in any way whatsoever, especially when hentai can and does get even worse than your average filmed porn. All media and all fiction reflects and reinforces cultural notions, anyone who's taken a single media studies class can tell you that. Fiction gives us stories that we inevitably relate to life itself because that's how people interact with art, we relate things to our own experiences. And you can internalize unintentional messages you might not have intended to receive or the creator of whatever you're consuming might not have intended to convey. People who absolutely care about race relations in the US for example might still harbor an unconscious bias against people of color because the media portrays people of color in a worse light. You might stop empathizing with people who have suffered terrible things IRL to the same degree, even if you don't intend to do so at all. Particularly in niche subcultures, this accidental internalization can reach a point where people can normalize fetishizing abuse to the point where people actually being abused -who cannot be expected to "know better"- can rationalize their own abuse, or where abusers can find justification for their abuse. Nobody consumes VNs in a vacuum, and nobody consumes porn in a vacuum. When the VN community at large makes it seem normal to jerk off to hurtful porn, people who didn't get into the community for the abusive porn and who don't have all the faculties or the willingness to compartmentalize and process how they react to and feel about it can receive harmful messages. And particularly, Fuwanovel for example is not a lolicon site. It's a visual novel site. People who come here for VNs are exposed to lolicon fetishism without their consent. How this might affect someone is extremely downplayed in most VN circles. You might trigger someone's trauma. You might simply send off the wrong lesson. Someone who sees lolicon fetishism is accepted somewhere might take that to mean other messaging elsewhere might similarly be "fictional only" and end up normalizing that as well, and that can lead to all sorts of shit like radicalization, which is what gets you mass shooters in the US. 

 

Lastly, something that angers me:

I fucking hate the notion that things you do on the Internet are free of consequence. You're free to do what you want online, but that doesn't mean that what you choose to do and support is free of consequence. It's like traffic. You might drive like there aren't any other cars on the road, but any crashes you cause are still your fault even if it isn't what you intended. The idea that other people are responsible for shielding themselves from hurt from you while you aren't responsible at all is nonsensical, selfish, idiotic, and evil. 

 

edit: Refusing to examine how condoning lolicon and similar fetish stuff especially on a large scale is like driving on a road and refusing to slow down even though there's a car in front of you, then blaming the car in front of you for not changing lines and respecting your right to drive as you wish because any limitation on driving is a violation of the creed of Freedom of Movement, and saying you should have every right to drive without slowing down and other drivers are responsible for getting out of your way.

 

Edited by Funyarinpa

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18 minutes ago, Plk_Lesiak said:

I think there's a bit more to that. What I like in the culture of political correctness (yes, I'm using the term unironically) is that it encourages self-reflection and being mindful of other people's feelings. That's what empathy is for me. For example, a group of people universally find some term offensive. I didn't know that, but if someone tells me that and it's a group that I have any kind of respect for, I won't use it, otherwise I'd be an asshole on purpose.

On the other hand we have the abomination of outrage culture and treating everything even slightly questionable as a scandal. Vide Attack Helicopter Dating Sim and the discussion about that, I think my posts there kind of missed the point, but the one thing that frustrated me is that intention and context seemed to lose all meaning. It's only the hypothetical person that might feel insulted by it and their overzealous advocates that matter. It goes to the bizarre extremes such as Kim Kardashian not being allowed to impersonate Diana Ross on Holloween party because of Jim Crow and blackface... I mean, how the fuck did we get here from the genuine defence of vulnerable groups?

With eroge we got to a similar point. There's a lot of content in it that I personally find objectionable and I don't really hide that. I openly argue for the availability of all-ages editions and would support replacing certain content for Western release (ex. Kara no Shoujo's rape scenes), if it was done with actual care. But the community never stopped me from enjoying the things I actually like and speaking my mind on all kinds of manners, while there are definitely those that would happily burn my entrainment with the whole forest of "questionable" otaku media. I mean, we just had one of the most wholesome-looking yuri VNs ever banned by Steam as potential child porn. An all-ages, light romance that teaches people Esperanto FFS. I don't want to whitewash all the creepy weirdness that comes from 4chan otaku and other fringes, but damn, reasonable discussion is simply dead by this point. If we're not going to be tolerant with each other, we can just all follow Funya and jump into a pit of fire - it's not like we have many other places to go to cultivate our hobbies, or enough people that share it to break into a dozen of factions.

As always you come across as a reasonable person who, even if I don't fully agree with all your points, makes me want to dialog to try and understand better why you think the way you do.

So, addressing your example first, if some group of people told me that they find some term offensive, even if it was not my intention to offend them, yeah, I definitely would try to avoid it at least in their presence. That's just common sense, and common decency. You know, the problem is that when people talk about political correctness they don't refer to this 'common decency' anymore, but to that outrage culture abomination, the reason being that it's just what's more prevalent. 

Now, as for fiction, and here is where we probably disagree, but by virtue of being you, I'm not afraid of disagreeing :makina: I do find some content disgusting, but I will firmly stick up for the right of ANY kind of fictional content to exist. Persecuting fiction is simply thought policing, and that restriction of our freedom would accomplish anything. Seriously, I would consider giving some things up if it seriously made a difference in real world issues, but I can't see how banning fictional depictions of rape and/or child abuse or any other kind of largely considered disgusting stuff would protect ACTUAL victims of those crimes in the real world. I know this is not completely on topic, but if you don't mind, have the time and feel like having a private conversation with me over that, I'd be more than glad.

Edited by Thyndd

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14 minutes ago, Funyarinpa said:

To an extent, I'm slightly embarrassed I've ever been a member of this forum. I find it, and all of you lolicons, fucking gross. That's enough reason to leave.

I feel really sad for you... That's a lot of hate to endure living with... I hope you can find happiness in the future.

It'd be nice if, at least out of respect to yourself, you could keep the discussion polite.

Edited by SkraalQ

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That's some deep seated issue that the OP have, and sorry that unfortunately I can't give you a certain solution to give you a full recovery here. So here's the article that might help the OP here, and if possible perhaps you can see the therapist here (And quit the hobbies that cause your trauma to appear, such as the VNs here). Good luck on your way to recovery there.

Edited by littleshogun

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