Chuee Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Just now, sanahtlig said: The cynical response would be: how is this different than the other Japanese eroge developers joining the Steam rush? They have no connection to the English audience. In many cases, they wouldn't even know if English fans were unhappy, much less care. Well, in this case, we aren't talking about the Japanese developers, because they aren't the ones who pay for translation. Debonosu published Kogura Douchuuki on their own, so they were the ones who oversaw translation and payed for it. Considering how Sekai Project apparently pays their translation staff very generously, I doubt they'd be stingy enough to avoid 18+ versions altogether just because they don't want to shell out a bit of extra money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanahtlig Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 11 minutes ago, Chuee said: Considering how Sekai Project apparently pays their translation staff very generously, I doubt they'd be stingy enough to avoid 18+ versions altogether just because they don't want to shell out a bit of extra money. Sure. But what if the Japanese rightsholder doesn't want the 18+ version to be released? What if they don't let Sekai Project license it? What if they demand that any adult version be sold for $80 a copy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred the Barber Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 1 hour ago, sanahtlig said: Eroge companies that jettison their connection to adult content and go straight for Steam are more than likely after one thing and one thing only. Newsflash: all companies are after one thing and one thing only. What you seem to be implying with this statement is that all the companies you lump in that group are short-sighted. But having revenue be your motivating goal doesn't immediately make you short-sighted; far from it, long-term investments are also important. Capitalism is pretty great at this particular scenario. It's very clear from sales numbers and from level of engagement by consumers that the English-reading VN industry is growing by leaps and bounds. There will be associated growing pains. But when the dust clears, the associated companies will of course spend most of their effort on what can make them the most money, and right now they're trying to figure out what that is. I don't blame them at all for leaving ero content behind whenever it proves problematic, at the moment: the sales numbers right now are showing that it doesn't seem to be nearly as profitable as pretty art. The good news is, if the market grows enough, the niches within our niche market will grow as well, to the point that someone will find a way to make money off them as well (maybe the current licensing companies, maybe someone else entirely). Those niches includes both ero content (which was previously dominant, but is now starting to get left by the wayside in favor of the Steam releases) and well-written stories (which have never done well, but which a vocal minority keeps beating the drum in favor of). We're already experiencing this benefit with the latter case: in the last couple years, more of the licensing companies are experimenting with bringing over well-written stories. I just really hope more people start buying those, since that's the niche I'm interested in. Mr Poltroon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanahtlig Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, Fred the Barber said: Newsflash: all companies are after one thing and one thing only. I don't think that's necessarily true, especially in the eroge market. Eroge developers don't get into the business to get rich, and the best writers, voice actors, and artists could likely make more money in other industries. They generally stick around because of love for the craft, their colleagues, or their fans. Nitroplus didn't nitpick every single detail of Demonbane's English release out of desire for profit. No doubt such attention to detail is extremely cost-inefficient. No, they have a proud brand image and very high standards that they hold themselves and their partners to. In a word: they're professionals. A self-respecting eroge company doesn't cut content simply because it's convenient. They consider their mission, their goals for overseas release, and the audience they wish to appeal to. They consider how to appeal to the widest audience--and that usually means having a non-adult version to market at the sea of casual users on Steam, and an adult version to serve the core fanbase. In addition, there's a difference between a low-risk, short-term revenue venture and a dedicated effort to build relationships and cultivate good will over the long haul. Ditching your core fans out of expedience is usually a poor way to establish a lasting foothold in a new market. Tyr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred the Barber Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 2 hours ago, sanahtlig said: I don't think that's necessarily true, especially in the eroge market. Individual employees (at least, the ones you want to hire) take pride in and responsibility for their work. Companies exist to make money. Fortunately and unsurprisingly, the two goals often align, especially with respect to long-term goals: people want to build high-quality products (because they want to consume high-quality products, and also because they want people to take pleasure in the fruits of their labor), and companies thrive when people perceive their goods as high-quality. But you should not confuse this with companies themselves having a desire to produce products of a certain quality or tailored to a certain market: a company exists to make money, and those are intermediate means to that end. I'll call your mentioning of Demonbane, since I played that a month or two ago - the translation of Leica's route was, for about a third of it, abominable. It was completely inconsistent with the rest of the translation (which was fine), it had serious grammar and spelling mistakes, and even the text display was screwy. I'll specifically direct you at the "This is a temple cum throne room" line: the scene is repeated perhaps 10 times across the VN. That paragraph's translation is identical, consistent, and well-written everywhere else; in Leica's route, the same exact words are translated differently, and frankly much more poorly. The Demonbane translation gets a pretty bad mark in my book - I'd rather have something which is consistently decent than something which is at times quite good, and at others quite bad. Now, why do I bring that up? To illustrate my point, of course. The developers didn't know about that problem. And if they don't know about it, they won't act on it. No amount of pride in craftsmanship can replace the importance of customer feedback, either in the form of specific verbal feedback from individual consumers, or better yet in the form of implicit feedback from sales numbers. Money talks, and bullshit walks. That's how companies work. If you think otherwise, in any circumstance, you're deluding yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanahtlig Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 To be fair, I didn't know that there was inconsistency in the translation, and I played the game (but not that route). I was recounting a tale from JAST USA boss Peter Payne of the frustrations of working with the legendarily meticulous staff of Nitroplus. But you do point out a flaw in the system: the gaping hole in communication between Japanese developers and their fanbase overseas. That lack of connection is one of the reasons that piracy is so rampant and why there's so much apathy all around: both from Japanese developers and English end users. It's no surprise that OELVNs tend to do better on Steam even though they're often objectively worse than their Japanese counterparts. Like anyone else, I'm going to support the developers and publishers that provide products I want and connect with me as a consumer. Companies that fail to do that will be lucky to get my attention, much less my money--and that includes all the eroge companies targeting Steam while skipping over the core fanbase for their games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codesterz Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 I love how Raymond asks us to prove AO can be more profitable while releasing AO versions of their VNs several months after the AA versions. Sounds hypocrtical to me. Release them on the same damn day and let's find out who win. We are not counting Nekopara. No offense to fans of the series but I don't even consider it to be a visual novel. If a VN is less than 10 hours long I personally don't even consider it to be a visual novel. At best it's a visual short story. Release Grisaia no Meikyuu AA and AO versions on the same day. Have there be no patch to add AO content to the AA version so people have to choose to buy 1 or the other. Advertise them equally and don't try to hide the existence of the AO version. Do this and we'll see which one turns out to be more profitable. Raymond also mentions they have some AO only titles in the wings but VNDB doesn't show any of them. Anyone know what they are? Are they real Visual Novels(not over 5 years old), crappy low budget Nukiges, Visual Short Stories, or even worse OELVNs? Kawasumi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solidbatman Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 17 minutes ago, Codesterz said: I love how Raymond asks us to prove AO can be more profitable while releasing AO versions of their VNs several months after the AA versions. Sounds hypocrtical to me. Release them on the same damn day and let's find out who win. We are not counting Nekopara. No offense to fans of the series but I don't even consider it to be a visual novel. If a VN is less than 10 hours long I personally don't even consider it to be a visual novel. At best it's a visual short story. Release Grisaia no Meikyuu AA and AO versions on the same day. Have there be no patch to add AO content to the AA version so people have to choose to buy 1 or the other. Advertise them equally and don't try to hide the existence of the AO version. Do this and we'll see which one turns out to be more profitable. Raymond also mentions they have some AO only titles in the wings but VNDB doesn't show any of them. Anyone know what they are? Are they real Visual Novels(not over 5 years old), crappy low budget Nukiges, Visual Short Stories, or even worse OELVNs? If my book isnt at least 200 pages long, it isnt a book. Its just a short story. Get over yourself. Dovac is calling all the people fussing about 18+ releases out, saying if you want them, show us. Just from what I hear, 18+ releases, that are not nukige, have been selling like absolute shit, not just from Denpasoft, but also from Mangagamer. The market is louder than the money it spends. I guarantee you, a steam release of a VN will sell better than the 18+ version. Because people will find another excuse, and another excuse, and another excuse to not buy the VN. As for Grisaia, with the sheer amount of meddling that Frontwing has been doing, it would not shock me to see that be a situation out of their hands, and if not, a separate release is likely due to them using two different labels for their All-ages and 18+ stuff. Unfortunate, but understandable as they want to protect the money wing of their operation, Sekai Project, from the "throwing scraps to the muh porn" crowd wing of their operation. Also, he hasn't announced the 18+ stuff. Expect to see it later in the summer. The stuff he tweeted is like, 3 days old, and con season is just getting started. Zalor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codesterz Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, solidbatman said: If my book isnt at least 200 pages long, it isnt a book. Its just a short story. Get over yourself. Dovac is calling all the people fussing about 18+ releases out, saying if you want them, show us. Just from what I hear, 18+ releases, that are not nukige, have been selling like absolute shit, not just from Denpasoft, but also from Mangagamer. The market is louder than the money it spends. I guarantee you, a steam release of a VN will sell better than the 18+ version. Because people will find another excuse, and another excuse, and another excuse to not buy the VN. As for Grisaia, with the sheer amount of meddling that Frontwing has been doing, it would not shock me to see that be a situation out of their hands, and if not, a separate release is likely due to them using two different labels for their All-ages and 18+ stuff. Unfortunate, but understandable as they want to protect the money wing of their operation, Sekai Project, from the "throwing scraps to the muh porn" crowd wing of their operation. Also, he hasn't announced the 18+ stuff. Expect to see it later in the summer. The stuff he tweeted is like, 3 days old, and con season is just getting started. Settle down there buddy no reason to get all angry because our opinions don't align. No reason to start insulting me. You can't really include Mangagamer in this 99% of the stuff they localize no one even wants AO or not. I'm not looking for your guarantee. I want a game that will be having both AA and AO release to be released on the same day to see the facts of the situation. Honestly I'd like to think both have a chance of winning. It's not like I'm against AA releases happening. Sure I'm not gonna read them as I'm just not interested in AA VNs. I just don't like it when they take an AO VN from Japan that has no AA version and then they ONLY release an AA version. I live in America and censorship like that should not be happening. We proudly uncensor stuff not the other way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solidbatman Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, Codesterz said: Settle down there buddy no reason to get all angry because our opinions don't align. No reason to start insulting me. You can't really include Mangagamer in this 99% of the stuff they localize no one even wants AO or not. I'm not looking for your guarantee. I want a game that will be having both AA and AO release to be released on the same day to see the facts of the situation. Honestly I'd like to think both have a chance of winning. It's not like I'm against AA releases happening. Sure I'm not gonna read them as I'm just not interested in AA VNs. I just don't like it when they take an AO VN from Japan that has no AA version and then they ONLY release an AA version. I live in America and censorship like that should not be happening. We proudly uncensor stuff not the other way around. No were did I insult you. But nothing you are saying makes any sense. Now you want to get selective on what counts and what doesn't towards your argument. You already left Nekopara out because "its not a VN" and now you are going to not include anything MG does because "99% of the stuff they localize, no one even wants AO or not" What? Fact is, if there was money to be made in AO releases like you want, they would already be doing it. Trust me. The people who want AO are louder vocally than their actions are. You might not be that way, and will buy an AO release the moment it comes out, but you are the minority on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codesterz Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, solidbatman said: No were did I insult you. But nothing you are saying makes any sense. Now you want to get selective on what counts and what doesn't towards your argument. You already left Nekopara out because "its not a VN" and now you are going to not include anything MG does because "99% of the stuff they localize, no one even wants AO or not" What? Fact is, if there was money to be made in AO releases like you want, they would already be doing it. Trust me. The people who want AO are louder vocally than their actions are. You might not be that way, and will buy an AO release the moment it comes out, but you are the minority on that. I'm excluding Mangagamer because off the top of my head I can't think of any VNs they have released that had both AA and AO versions. So we have no side by side sales comparison. Another reason I'm excluding them is because you mentioned their stuff has been 'selling like shit'. Of course it's gonna sell like shit when the bulk of the stuff they localize no one wants(not literally just the majority don't want). They release low budget out of date VNs over and over and when they do bring a higher budget one its an extreme fetish VN. If you really want to include Nekopara in this then for each sale of the AO patch we have to -1 sale of the AA version and +1 sale the AO version. But then we run into another issue. Is there a way to confirm if someone bought the AA version and then pirated the AO patch and applied it to his AA version? This causes the sales numbers between the 2 numbers to become muddled. Not to mention what's stopping people from sharing there AO patch they bought with friends muddling things even more. Comparing an AA and AO versions sales becomes troublesome when there in an AO patch for the AA version messing with numbers. Sekai Project has never released a Japanese VN with an AA and AO version on the same day that DID NOT have a patch/dlc that makes the AA an AO. There has never been a FAIR fight for the AA and AO versions to see which will sell better. Raymond is assuming his previous releases of AA and AO were on even grounds and that AA is the clear victor. Which is not true. I'm simply asking them to try it out once with Grisaia no Meikyuu to see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 The fair fight you call for isn't gonna happen because in order to be fair both versions would need to have an equal amount of marketing, and AA versions go to Steam so they have an overwhelming advantage. The reason why AO versions have modest sales at best is because information about them only circulates within certain communities that, in total, amounts to a vanishingly small pool of buyers compared with the Steam market and the gaming market at large. The only ways to get out of that slowly expanding but still fairly small group is to either go to Steam, which an AO version can't do, or exist in the larger gaming press, which so far has superbly ignored visual novels, especially AO ones. What Mangagamer shows though, is that it's very possible to make profit out of AO titles that only sell to a niche audience. Mangagamer doesn't sell a lot but sells at a decently high price and enough to keep running, whereas Steam dictates a race to the ever-smaller prices which completely deregulates normal price practices and perceptions and probably endanger those who can't hope to sell billions of copies even at a small price. In other words Sekai Project should probably be able to make some profit out of AO versions. Whether they want to or not is up to their strategic choices. But it's not comparable with selling AA versions anyway, the market's fundamentally different. Fred the Barber, sanahtlig, solidbatman and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crayten Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 One of Sekai Projects upcoming AO title will probably be Koikuma according to this leaked screenshot. Sayori is also involved in this project as the main artist, which makes it even realistic that the leak is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john 'mr. customer' smith Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 31 minutes ago, Crayten said: One of Sekai Projects upcoming AO title will probably be Koikuma according to this leaked screenshot. More Sayori, eh? Not complaining on that one edit: OMG it has an ejaculation forewarner, instant buy on release Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadeotic Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) If Koikuma'll happen, it'd honestly be pretty great Sayori is a god-like artist and I've been on the fence of playing this title for a while Edited March 28, 2016 by Arcadeotic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erogamer Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Don't forget https://visualnovels.moe/wagahigh/ Wagamama High Spec. I am sure that will be AO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Doesn't Koikuma have a fantl project? (seems like there isn't actually any progress) Anyways I can confirm that it's a great title Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codesterz Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Koikuma and Wagamama both look like VNs I'd be willing to read so I cannot complain. Koikuma looks a bit more appealing to me because of Arle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklord Rooke Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 6 hours ago, Codesterz said: If a VN is less than 10 hours long I personally don't even consider it to be a visual novel. At best it's a visual short story. Down's already given an excellent response to the AO issue, so I'll concentrate on this. A short story tends to be any piece of work under approximately 10,000 words. Because VNs have routes, you'd could make a case that this word count only includes the number of words for one route instead of all up, so 10,000 words through one route/playthrough. The idea that you'd use a time system which varies greatly is silly, and the idea that it's 10 hours is out of kilter with traditional standards. A novel is anything over 40,000 words (for one route, if you want to go down that path.) Many Japanese VNs ARE long, that is true, but it should be noted that it's because they bloat their character/word count with useless scenes and meaningless fluff. That's called 'making your novel longer through poor writing.' Writers who write tightly plotted novels and scenes shouldn't be penalised and feel they need to reach a massive number of words because people want to pander to the poor writing practices of others. Also the community now has the opportunity to show Dovac he's wrong. Isn't this a glorious day? So instead of /jp/ sitting on their glutei maximi all day talking out their arse like they always do, they now have the opportunity to prove shit by putting their money where their mouth is. You want to show Dovac he's wrong, buy the damn games people. Considering pre-Steam MG's bestselling games moved 2,000 copies, and post Steam everybody's moving a lot more, I doubt the number will be impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanahtlig Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 6 hours ago, Codesterz said: Release Grisaia no Meikyuu AA and AO versions on the same day. Have there be no patch to add AO content to the AA version so people have to choose to buy 1 or the other. Advertise them equally and don't try to hide the existence of the AO version. Do this and we'll see which one turns out to be more profitable. I agree with @Down. What you're asking is impossible. You can't force fans to not make a Steam restoration patch. Different platforms have different levels of intrinsic marketing / accessibility. What you want is a comprehensive scientific study comparing market potential and no one is going to do that. If you want to revel in the erotic elements of eroge then LewdGamer is probably your site. Part of their mission is mobilizing the sex-positive crowd who celebrate erotic elements for their own sake. To be honest, that's a little extreme even for me, and I think of myself as a dedicated eroge fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanahtlig Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 16 minutes ago, Rooke said: You want to show Dovac he's wrong, buy the damn games people. Considering pre-Steam MG's bestselling games moved 2,000 copies, and post Steam everybody's moving a lot more, I doubt the number will be impressive. Part of the problem is that given the choice between a $25 Steam version with a free adult content patch and a $35 adult version, most people will go for the former--especially since you buy the Steam version first and "upgrade" later, whereas you're pretty much stuck with the $35 version and can't get your $10 back if the content disappoints. Not to mention Steam is viewed as a more reliable DL service than any of the alternatives for adult games. Imagine an alternative scenario where it was the adult platform that had millions of users, adult versions were sold cheaper than the whitewashed censored versions specially made for the English market, and consider if the comparison you're making would be "fair". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crayten Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/karakara-a-new-visual-novel-by-industry-veterans#/ Most of the Backer choose the AO tier for 10$ over the 5$ AA. I would also have no problem to pay 10$ more if i would get a AO patch w/e for SP available games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklord Rooke Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 8 minutes ago, sanahtlig said: Part of the problem is that given the choice between a $25 Steam version with a free adult content patch and a $35 adult version, most people will go for the former--especially since you buy the Steam version first and "upgrade" later, whereas you're pretty much stuck with the $35 version and can't get your $10 back if the content disappoints. Not to mention Steam is viewed as a more reliable DL service than any of the alternatives for adult games. Imagine an alternative scenario where it was the adult platform that had millions of users, adult versions were sold cheaper than the whitewashed censored versions specially made for the English market, and consider if the comparison you're making would be "fair". Well, it's not about 'fairness', it's about making responsible business decisions. In your scenario, I would make the exact same comparison ... er, in reverse. The AO versions had many, many years to prove their viability before companies headed to Steam (through desperation because nobody bought anything.) While a perfect comparison doesn't exist today, it's more than fair to say eroge was struggling beforehand - unlike VNs on Steam, the adult only content sold beforehand never really proved their viability as a market. MG was always struggling, JAST went bankrupt once before. Now all age stuff is being released on Steam and people are saying 'give AO a chance, strip away the advantages of Steam and we'll show you that AO content is equally viable' - well, people had many years to show this and diddly-squat happened, and the advantages of Steam are half the point (adult only games struggle for mindshare in the Western community, e.g.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanahtlig Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 4 minutes ago, Rooke said: JAST went bankrupt once before I've never heard of this. Please elaborate. The availability of these Steam restoration patches is important because, for all we know, the games might not sell as well on Steam if these patches weren't available. Try telling Japanese developers that their sales are benefitting from piracy though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codesterz Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 23 minutes ago, Rooke said: Down's already given an excellent response to the AO issue, so I'll concentrate on this. A short story tends to be any piece of work under approximately 10,000 words. Because VNs have routes, you'd could make a case that this word count only includes the number of words for one route instead of all up, so 10,000 words through one route/playthrough. The idea that you'd use a time system which varies greatly is silly, and the idea that it's 10 hours is out of kilter with traditional standards. A novel is anything over 40,000 words (for one route, if you want to go down that path.) Many Japanese VNs ARE long, that is true, but it should be noted that it's because they bloat their character/word count with useless scenes and meaningless fluff. That's called 'making your novel longer through poor writing.' Writers who write tightly plotted novels and scenes shouldn't be penalised and feel they need to reach a massive number of words because people want to pander to the poor writing practices of others. Also the community now has the opportunity to show Dovac he's wrong. Isn't this a glorious day? So instead of /jp/ sitting on their glutei maximi all day talking out their arse like they always do, they now have the opportunity to prove shit by putting their money where their mouth is. You want to show Dovac he's wrong, buy the damn games people. Considering pre-Steam MG's bestselling games moved 2,000 copies, and post Steam everybody's moving a lot more, I doubt the number will be impressive. Funny you should mention 10,000 words is considered a short story as that tends to be around how long a 10 hour VN is -_-. Since you seem to hate the measuring of time I want you to start to do something for me. Whenever someone tell you its a 30 minutes drive to so and so location I want you to correct them and say you mean 30 miles. Sorry but your nitpicking bugs me had to bring it up. My reading speed doesn't really vary much so using time to measure length and determining if something is a short story or not feels pretty right to me. The whole poor writing thing you are WAY OFF with. I value characters over story. This holds true for me in games, VNs, movies, anime, manga, novels, etc. If I don't care for any of the characters why would I be interested in their story. I love character fluff, sure there is point where you can over do it. If a VN ends within 10 hours It's very unlikely I will become attached to any of the characters. 18 minutes ago, sanahtlig said: I agree with @Down. What you're asking is impossible. You can't force fans to not make a Steam restoration patch. Different platforms have different levels of intrinsic marketing / accessibility. What you want is a comprehensive scientific study comparing market potential and no one is going to do that. If you want to revel in the erotic elements of eroge then LewdGamer is probably your site. Part of their mission is mobilizing the sex-positive crowd who celebrate erotic elements for their own sake. To be honest, that's a little extreme even for me, and I think of myself as a dedicated eroge fan. I'm not asking fans to not make a restoration patch. The whole AO patch thing is referring purely to Nekopara where the patches were official. Plain and simply... Sekai Project release VN with both AA and AO versions... release them on the same day... DO NOT SELL AN OFFICIAL PATCH THAT RESTORES AO CONTENT... People would in most cases buy 1 version or the other... and then after say a few weeks look to see which sold better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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