How to interpret choppy JParser Definitions (Help me read Untranslated!)

[Zalor]

I've recently started Tae Kim's Grammar guide, and in order to see organic examples of grammar I decided to analyze some written Japanese. I'm quite familiar with Lucky Star so I downloaded Japanese subtitles for it and decided to watch/read some of it. This is my first time using Translation Aggregator with JParser and Mecab to actually try to read Japanese. So naturally I have a few questions for experienced readers regarding how to interpret text. 

 

How do you deal with definitions that make little sense in context? I created a screen capture as an example of a specific case I had:

 

 

In response to the teacher calling on a student to answer a question on the board, the student says,

"え!?　あ、さっき当たりましたよ…"

 

The first actual word seems to be さっき, which Jparser translates as 'some time ago'. Alright, makes sense. But then the next word "当たり" translates as multiple words. To makes things easier on my eyes I looked up the word on a separate dictionary and got this: "(1) hit. (2) success. (3) guess, prediction. (4) affability, friendliness"

The only potential definition that makes sense seems to be number 2, "success". I suppose the student is literally saying that some time ago he successfully answered a question. But what makes a lot more sense would be what the English subbed version says, "you just called on me".

 

I guess what I am trying to ask, is how do you put together and make sense of really choppy sentences when you only have vague definitions of words? Also, what do you do when you have a hard time determining what definition to go with when there are multiple ones? 

 

As a beginner with a minimal vocabulary in Japanese, how should I use Translation Aggregator and Jparser to help me teach myself? When I run into difficult words/definition should I skip them and move on? Or should I really struggle to fully understand each and every sentence? For those of you who taught yourselves and learned through using Translation Aggregator, what did you do as a novice? 

 

Note to mods: Most other discussion involving Translation Aggregator are on this sub-forum, so I placed it here. But if you feel this is more appropriate somewhere else, by all means move it.  

[Kimanor]

I skip anything too complex. For words with lot's of definitions, I also skip those.

Get to know particles. They are your friends.

 

It's kind of a hit and miss when you just start to be honest. Whenever you see a reading with only one definition, or very few such as "mio", then try to remember those. I also tried memorizing anything I see often, such as "yume" (dream) and "to have a dream". I also started getting into learning the grammar better the more I saw it, so I decided to pull out my textbook/internet browser to understand the grammar better.

 

You could also disregard everything I'm saying since I probably learn differently from you. I also started this method recently, but this is the way I learn so yeah.

 

To sum it up, just keep reading. I recommend using Jparser with visual novels rather than anime, since you can go at your own pace and the sentences might be more fleshed out. 

 

Some advice: Don't try reading steins;gate or something by favorite. Philosophy and physics is hard enough to read in English.

[Nosebleed]

Context is key.

 

What I do when something is too vague is look at the previous sentences, tear them apart, analyze every single word to make sure I got it, and see how that particular word/phrase that seems vague could have come up. This usually helps understanding the right meaning.

 

I actually can't really figure out the meaning of 当たりました in this case because I have no clue what came before it.

Though I think your suggestion of successful seems to be correct, but just from that sentence I couldn't be sure. It could also be "hit", as in, successful hit, successfully getting it right.

Also pay attention to conjugation, "ました" is past tense, so they're referring to something that already occured (of course さっき is already a good indicator of that but nonetheless verb conjugation is important), this is also key in understanding the meaning of the sentence.

 

Taking a look at jisho reveals some interesting possibilities as well

当たる

 

1: to be hit; to strike;
2: to touch; to be in contact; to be affixed;
3: to be equivalent to; to be applicable; to apply to;
4: to be right on the money (of a prediction, criticism, etc.);
5: to be selected (in a lottery, etc.); to win;
6: to be successful; to go well; to be a hit;
7: to face; to confront;
8: to lie (in the direction of);
9: to undertake; to be assigned;
10: to be stricken (by food poisoning, heat, etc.); to be afflicted;
11: to be called upon (by the teacher);
12: to treat (esp. harshly); to lash out at;
13: to be unnecessary;
14: (in baseball) to be hitting well; to be on a hitting streak;
15: (in fishing) to feel a bite;
16: (of fruit, etc.) to be bruised; to spoil; 
17: () to feel (something) out; to probe into; to check (i.e. by comparison);

18: to shave

 

I suggest you first try understanding sentences with the abilities you have, really basic stuff.

Tear appart every particle/word/verb and understand how everything is built.

It takes time at first, but it's important if you want to progress, and soon you'll see that things more often than not start repeating themselves.

 

If something is too complicated/vague for you to understand by any means, you should probably not beat yourself up over it and skip it for the time being.

[zoom909]

I would not recommend learning solely through games and TA.

In this case, your problem would have been solved by looking in a better dictionary*

Ataru happens to be one of those words with a broad application.

*Edit:  I just realized that you were using Tagaini Jisho there.  But even so.

 

WWWJDIC:

当たる(P); 当る; 中る; 中たる 【あたる】 (v5r,vi) (1) (ant: 外す・4) to be hit; to strike; (2) to touch; to be in contact; to be affixed; (3) to be equivalent to; to be applicable; to apply to; (4) to be right on the money (of a prediction, criticism, etc.); (5) to be selected (in a lottery, etc.); to win; (6) to be successful; to go well; to be a hit; (7) to face; to confront; ( to lie (in the direction of); (9) to undertake; to be assigned; (10) to be stricken (by food poisoning, heat, etc.); to be afflicted; (11) to be called upon (by the teacher); (12) to treat (esp. harshly); to lash out at; (13) (as 〜するには当たらない, etc.) to be unnecessary; (14) {baseb} (usu. as 当たっている) to be hitting well; to be on a hitting streak; (15) (in fishing) to feel a bite; (16) (of fruit, etc.) to be bruised; to spoil; (v5r,vt) (17) to feel (something) out; to probe into; to check (i.e. by comparison); (18) to shave; (19) (as 〜の〜に当たる) to be a relative of a person; to stand in a relationship;

 

Number 11 is obviously the one you wanted.

 

In the beginning, I went very slowly and made sure to understand everything.  Even if I had to do a little research as I played, I didn't mind.

Edited February 10, 2015 by zoom909

[LinovaA]

Good thing to bring up, as I will also be going through my first uses of these things soon.

 

Even if I can't say anything about the applications themselves, I can suggest one thing. I had a weird start to learning Japanese, so my knowledge of the language is kinda all over the place, but I can definitely suggest struggling through the sentences. Just take your time and see if you can make out what is being said. As those above have said, it's all about the context. If you can't figure it out after awhile, maybe make note of it and come back to it later to see if you can figure it out then (since you are using anime as a sort of tool).

 

Just slowly build up your vocab, latching on to frequently encountered words and anything else you can. Also latch on to particles and verb conjugations as well, as they are of the utmost importance. This while using Tae Kim's should definitely help.

 

... eh. That is all I got. Honestly I am still relatively a beginner myself, but it's what I got. As we speak I am smashing my head against the kanji wall. heh heh.

[Nosebleed]

Also note that JParser is not flawless, it sometimes messes up the correct pronounciation of words, usually because of particles (I think Mecab is better with particles but i'm not 100% sure), so if something really doesn't make sense (like you're just left scratching your head), make sure to look it up online on sites like Jisho that list literally everything about that one word.

 

Now that look back on it  to be called upon by the teacher made more sense indeed, but I didn't know who the speaker was either so just by looking at the japanese (without the English translation) I wouldn't have figured that out.

 

And hey if you absolutely can't figure something out, that's why we have Fuwanovel

[Cyrillej1]

I always remembered 当たる more as the basic meaning of "to hit" and seen it used in other contexts as "to succeed", "right", etc. but thinking about it (even all those definitions from wwwjdic), they still have similar meaning but changed somewhat in context it's used in I think.  Such as さっき当たりました -> was hit earlier.. and he's saying that to the teacher.  So if in context, it makes sense to view it as the student telling the teacher he had "hit/targeted" him before already.. which to me, is similar to being "called on" by the teacher.  So that makes it easier to remember if you ever see that context used again.. instead of trying to remember every single definition/meaning on wwwjdic by itself... though, I guess with some you may have to if they're so different.

 

Perhaps that's a bad way of remembering things xD but that's how I do it... so I'm not jamming too many different definitions for one kanji, but just remember basic (often most used) meaning and its different possible contexts it can also be used/changed in.  I'm still learning though myself, so~ just a thought.

 

From my experience so far.. it helps to read sentences before, and after if you can't make sense of it.. might help make things more clear about what they're really referring to.

[zoom909]

I always remembered 当たる more as the basic meaning of "to hit" and seen it used in other contexts as "to succeed", "right", etc. but thinking about it (even all those definitions from wwwjdic), they still have similar meaning but changed somewhat in context it's used in I think.  Such as さっき当たりました -> was hit earlier.. and he's saying that to the teacher.  So if in context, it makes sense to view it as the student telling the teacher he had "hit/targeted" him before already.. which to me, is similar to being "called on" by the teacher.  So that makes it easier to remember if you ever see that context used again.. instead of trying to remember every single definition/meaning on wwwjdic by itself... though, I guess with some you may have to if they're so different.

 

Perhaps that's a bad way of remembering things xD but that's how I do it... so I'm not jamming too many different definitions for one kanji, but just remember basic (often most used) meaning and its different possible contexts it can also be used/changed in.  I'm still learning though myself, so~ just a thought.

 

From my experience so far.. it helps to read sentences before, and after if you can't make sense of it.. might help make things more clear about what they're really referring to.

No, it's a good way.  If you asked me how I knew what ataru meant in this case w/o looking it up, it is NOT by remembering all 20 meanings listed by EDICT.  Those aren't technically even meanings, they're really usage hints.  The real meaning of ataru is very close to English "hit.", and that's how I memorized it at first as well.  And then, any time it seemed the meaning was being stretched a little, I would look up the meaning in the dictionary to make certain of what it meant.  Eventually all that stuff gets internalized, but at the beginning, that's the way I did it.

[rainsismyfav]

あげる JWPce's definition:

 

上げる    【あげる】        (v1) to give, to raise, to elevate, to fly (kites), to praise, to increase, to advance, to promote, to vomit, to usher in, to admit, to send (to school), to offer, to present, to leave with, to finish, to arrange (expenses), to observe, to perform, to quote, to mention, to bear (a child), to improve (talents), to do up (the hair), to arrest, to engage, to fry, (rains) to stop, (P)

 

I think that last one is telling me something~

[zoom909]

あげる JWPce's definition:

 

上げる    【あげる】        (v1) to give, to raise, to elevate, to fly (kites), to praise, to increase, to advance, to promote, to vomit, to usher in, to admit, to send (to school), to offer, to present, to leave with, to finish, to arrange (expenses), to observe, to perform, to quote, to mention, to bear (a child), to improve (talents), to do up (the hair), to arrest, to engage, to fry, (rains) to stop, (P)

 

I think that last one is telling me something~

JWPce has always been a remarkable program...to think it even gives you advice...

[sanahtlig]

Number 11 is obviously the one you wanted.

It's not obvious at all.

 

You're going to come across general-use words that have a lot of different meanings.  Unfortunately, the only way to know what they mean in a given context is lots and lots of exposure.  Japanese readers know what it means because in a classroom setting, given the specific events that came before, and given the age of the speaker, that's the meaning that fits.

 

As a beginning language learner you won't be able to understand every word and every phrase "in the wild" (vs. textbook spoon-fed examples).  It's just not possible, and you'll only frustrate yourself trying.  Focus on attaining overall comprehension of the work as a whole.  In many cases important topics will be repeated in different ways, allowing you more chances to figure out what's going on.  Unless you're translating for others, understanding every word is completely unnecessary for overall comprehension.  That's the entire basis of skimming.  You actually only need to understand a few key words in each sentence and a few key sentences in a paragraph to get the overall idea.  If even the overall idea is over your head, the work is too advanced (or too colloquial) and you should select something else.

[zoom909]

It's not obvious at all.

 

You're going to come across general-use words that have a lot of different meanings.  Unfortunately, the only way to know what they mean in a given context is lots and lots of exposure.  Japanese readers know what it means because in a classroom setting, given the specific events that came before, and given the age of the speaker, that's the meaning that fits.

 

As a beginning language learner you won't be able to understand every word and every phrase "in the wild" (vs. textbook spoon-fed examples).  It's just not possible, and you'll only frustrate yourself trying.  Focus on attaining overall comprehension of the work as a whole.  In many cases important topics will be repeated in different ways, allowing you more chances to figure out what's going on.  Unless you're translating for others, understanding every word is completely unnecessary for overall comprehension.  That's the entire basis of skimming.  You actually only need to understand a few key words in each sentence and a few key sentences in a paragraph to get the overall idea.

 

Obvious--I meant after you look in the dictionary of course.

 

I guess it depends on your personality.  I can't say your way is invalid.  And I don't mind doing it your way for raw anime, when I just want to understand the darn thing.

But with games it was different.  I actually wanted to improve my skill set as I read.

Plus I felt it would ruin a written novel to "skim" or just "get the gist of it".  Why, when a good dictionary is a split-second away.  I just verified that JParser does indeed have the meaning Zalor needed, only Tagaini Jisho doesn't.  So when reading with JParser, the only effort needed is to just read a few dictionary entries.  We're not talking about some obscure word that you have to search half the Japanese internet to find (not that I haven't done that btw but only when translating)

 

In other words, at the beginning, a good dictionary is your substitute for "lots and lots of exposure".

[Cyrillej1]

I guess what I am trying to ask, is how do you put together and make sense of really choppy sentences when you only have vague definitions of words? Also, what do you do when you have a hard time determining what definition to go with when there are multiple ones? 

 

As a beginner with a minimal vocabulary in Japanese, how should I use Translation Aggregator and Jparser to help me teach myself? When I run into difficult words/definition should I skip them and move on? Or should I really struggle to fully understand each and every sentence? For those of you who taught yourselves and learned through using Translation Aggregator, what did you do as a novice? 

Oh, I'll try answering the questions^^ forgot about those.

 

This is from my own experience (I've only fully played 2 short VNs in jp, and parts of a couple others).  I had built up on grammar & vocabulary through books/flashcards to about low-Intermediate level before I actually started to try reading VNs though.

 

-If I don't understand something.. I'll re-read previous sentences, or read sentences after it to see if I can make sense of what's going on. Then if I still can't, I'll try to look it up in my grammar books or online somewhere.. usually I'd get the gist at least if the reading level isn't too difficult for me in the first place. If I encounter a bunch of sentences I can't understand, despite doing the previous mentioned, I'd look for something easier to read at my level.

-For multiple definitions, I'd have to look at the context and see if my basic understanding of the meaning could be stretched a bit to fit. If not, I'd look at other definitions that could make sense. But deciding which to use will be based on context and what fits best and makes sense to me.

-I use Jparser to look up Every Single vocabulary and kanji I do not know. Every time I read and see something I don't know, I'll mouse over and look it up.. I do it over it and over, and usually I'll get used to seeing the word/kanji and won't have to look at it anymore (I notice authors tend to use same words over a lot, especially in the easier level VN). You could add those words/kanji into flashcards to learn later too... but I don't bother to do that atm, since I just want to read & enjoy xD.. (plus it'd add too many to the stack I already have).

-I think it's best to try and understand each and every sentence, or else it wouldn't really help if you just keep skipping and you'd also miss out on what happened.. at least try to understand the gist.  If you can't even understand the gist, maybe an easier level VN would be better... but that's how I rather do it then go through a super hard one very slowly.

 

Maybe as a beginner, you could read a easy level VN, and add vocabulary/sentences into flashcards to study? Or constantly look up as you go on Jparser xD.. but that might be really annoying if you have to do it for majority of what you're reading.

[Zalor]

Wow, so many great replies! I appreciate all the advice. The funny thing is that I already memorized the kanji 当 as hit. But I didn't feel comfortable stretching the definition of words in a language I barely know. I suppose 当 has a similar connotation in Japanese that the word "pick" has in the English language. You can pick on somebody (like a bully picking on weaker kids), but you can also literally pick something (To pick to buy apples instead of pears). I guess I should read things with a more interpretive mind set rather than a rigid by the book mindset.

 

 

I would not recommend learning solely through games and TA.

 

The impression I got from many people was that source material (VNs, games, anime, manga) in conjunction with grammar guides was all that was necessary. What else would you recommend? I mean personally I intend on adding new words into an Anki deck so I can memorize them efficiently. 

[sanahtlig]

VNs are written for Japanese adults.  They're pretty much the hardest source material you could choose to tackle, short of technical topics or Japanese literature.  The easiest story-focused VNs are generally written at a higher "reading level" than mainstream anime and RPGs.  Without text hooking, VNs would be something no one would consider tackling until they'd had the equivalent of 3 years of Japanese classes or so.  They're so difficult and lengthy that even professional translators balk at translating VNs because it's so much work.

 

I've been casually picking up Japanese while playing VNs, and I'm beginning to reach the point that I can understand many phrases unaided.  That's the culmination of 8 years of playing VNs (50-100 Japanese VNs played).

[Vince]

i started reading untranslated novels by impulse when i read majikoi without knowing the patch is still partial. lol.

and as a complete beginner, the first thing i do to understand that 'choppy' lines is trying to understand every words (kanji) in the lines. disassemble the sentence so i can understand the grammar (tense). look again at the context and always walk near the particles. i think with only that as your basic line, reading untranslated vn wouldn't be so heavy task anymore. so in short, disassemble, definition, tenses, assemble.

 

well, the most important thing is still exercise. i always picture the scene when i read vn so i can still focus to the lines without losing the big picture. often i'm too focused interpreting one sentence but i forgot what kind of event is taking place.

 

They're so difficult and lengthy that even professional translators balk at translating VNs because it's so much work.

plus the programming and all that shit. so it'd be great if everyone could be grateful to the vn translator out there.

[melo4496]

Good luck Zalor to your endeavor..

[Vokoca]

Also note that JParser is not flawless, it sometimes messes up the correct pronounciation of words, usually because of particles (I think Mecab is better with particles but i'm not 100% sure), so if something really doesn't make sense (like you're just left scratching your head), make sure to look it up online on sites like Jisho that list literally everything about that one word.

[Chronopolis]

Wow, so many great replies! I appreciate all the advice. The funny thing is that I already memorized the kanji 当 as hit. But I didn't feel comfortable stretching the definition of words in a language I barely know. I suppose 当 has a similar connotation in Japanese that the word "pick" has in the English language. You can pick on somebody (like a bully picking on weaker kids), but you can also literally pick something (To pick to buy apples instead of pears). I guess I should read things with a more interpretive mind set rather than a rigid by the book mindset.

 

 

 

The impression I got from many people was that source material (VNs, games, anime, manga) in conjunction with grammar guides was all that was necessary. What else would you recommend? I mean personally I intend on adding new words into an Anki deck so I can memorize them efficiently. 

I think most people outside of the VN community study textbooks (as well as speaking, writing, listening practice) for a long while until they start getting into substantial native material. If anything, the only thing that matters is continuing to study grammar (keep going until at least n2).

 

Honestly, many questions can be answered through a playing more. If you have a place to ask questions that is incredible helpful.

 

The reason why it's not productive to try and understand everything is that :

a) some topics are too complex to understand for one's level

B) you might not have to means to find the answer to your question (be a person to as who has seen that usage, or can't find it through google)

 

 

I suppose 当 has a similar connotation in Japanese that the word "pick" has in the English language.

当たる　doesn't have a similiar connotation (if you are talking about "good and bad" connotations). It doesn't really have a connotation. I think what you mean is that it is used in a bunch of ways, some which may seem like a spin-off of the base meaning.

 

Personally, I don't try and think too hard an justify the alternate meanings against a base one. It's too many mental hoops.

 

2 tips:

Use Jparser to provide a hint at the core meaning. Try to remember the context to remember *how" a word is used.

For example, some one could say　当たった！ when their guess turned out to be correct. Remember that situation, the fact that 当たる　can be used to refer to a guess or estimate being on the mark.　

 

I mean there have been words which I've been like "I know I've seen the word used here here and here with this sort of tone, but I don't really know what it means." That's ok. Note it down and ask someone when you get a chance.

 

For this example, don't remember "当たる　= to be called on by the teacher". Remember the situation you saw that meaning of 当たる used in.

 

There will be definitions where it's hard to tell what is doing what. Don't stress too much about words are unclear because of the english definition. Most Jparser definitions are helpful enough, for the ones that aren't you can ask about it, or just move on and wait until you can use a J-J dictionary or figure it out later.

 

 

well, the most important thing is still exercise. i always picture the scene when i read vn so i can still focus to the lines without losing the big picture. often i'm too focused interpreting one sentence but i forgot what kind of event is taking place.

Mm, this. Some lines can be solved if you are aware of what is happening (e.g. char A is mad at B because of this). Even if you don't, they provide context for you to gain a vague understanding of when the word is used, and with what tone.

[Clephas]

Mmm... I guess I'm weird, because I automatically change the furigana to the correct pronunciation in my head without having to consciously consider it...

[Vince]

Mmm... I guess I'm weird, because I automatically change the furigana to the correct pronunciation in my head without having to consciously consider it...

its natural if someone has read as much vns as you ,_, lol. would be weirder if you still using romaji spell-aid like me.

[Down]

I didn't read everything that was said above, but I just wanted to comment on the choice of reading material.

Lucky Star sounds like a pretty bad idea to me. You'll get hit with tons of puns, obscure jokes and slang which will cause comprehension issues such as the one you mentioned here. Comedy in general is not always a good choice to start out. I'm pretty sure people who do start practicing JP with Yotsuba on 4chan die on some jokes.

 

If you want to start out with something really easy, you should pick something more straightforward, for example oreimo if you want to watch something bad (it's braindead), or kids show like Precure if you want to watch something good.

 

If you want something more challenging, I'd actually say something like Bakemonogatari wouldn't be bad: there's a lot of text with long sentences but it's also surprinsingly straightforward in terms of grammar (no slang, very neutral speech usually)

[Nagisa_Fawkes]

Speaking from experience, just TL aggregator + JParser is definitely not enough. For two reasons that I experienced. One, is the infinity of onomatopoeia (sound words) that japanese has, and JParser does not cover them all up, so you have to look them up often. Another one, most important, are proverbs (kotowaza) and figurative speaking. For example, reading Da Capo 3 this line just came up 喉から手が出るほどに欲しいもの.  This part 喉から手が出る, literally means something like "A hand reaching up from the throat". I was like "Wut?". Then I googled it, and got a link for this site http://kotowaza.avaloky.com/index.html (I use it often actually), and I found out it's an expression used when you want something very very very much, basically.

 

So no, don't restrict yourself to only JParser, you'll have limitations.

[Zalor]

Lucky Star sounds like a pretty bad idea to me. You'll get hit with tons of puns, obscure jokes and slang which will cause comprehension issues such as the one you mentioned here. Comedy in general is not always a good choice to start out. I'm pretty sure people who do start practicing JP with Yotsuba on 4chan die on some jokes.

 

Yeah, I sort of quickly realized that something like Luck Star, despite it being a simple minded anime, would linguistically be difficult. Comedies assume basic understanding of the given language. In fact I just remember that Ixrec wrote in his Grammar guide, "In general, dramas or plot-driven stories are significantly easier to learn from than romance or character-driven stories (since they use more abstract words), and vastly easier to learn from than comedy (which requires instant comprehension to be funny)". 

 

I generally try to avoid liking too many comments at once, but you guys deserve it! I appreciate all the helpful advice. 

 

Good luck Zalor to your endeavor..

 

Thank you! 

[Nosebleed]

To be fair, most "good anime" probably require a higher linguistic level.

Gag comedy in particular is a bad choice given the amount of puns they often have.

 

If you want more basic stuff you'd likely have to sit through shows that are aimed at a younger audience.

Either that or really bland and shallow shows.

 

It's always tough in the beginning.