H-Scenes. Really necessary?

[Guest]

A few points regarding the discussion.

 

First calling people perverts of a forum about Visual Novel which in 90% of the case contain some form of Hentai or porn is wrong.

It's wrong regarding the definition of perversion and it's wrong because you don't go on an Visual Novel (mainly eroge) forum calling people perverts.

 

You may find it moraly/whatever disputable that's your point of view but don't call other people out on it.

At least not here.

 

And it's kinda hypocritical.

 

Back on the topic.

 

Most of the time Eroge producers and fans like to justify the H content saying it adds to the story or whatnot.

That it's in the contnuity of a loving relationship, that it shows passion and so on.

^Bullshit.

 

First step is to admit that most of the H content is there for being Hentai and to arouse the reader or give "fap material" (classy).

You don't show a loving relationship with genitalia, a girl making overexagerrated facial expressions, moaning every second, sweating, talking useless and senseless words during the act, and so on (the list goes on for ever).

Hopefully that will have convinced you that : NO hentai isn't relevant.

 

However !

I don't think erotism isn't.

I don't think showing two characters making love is wrong at all.

The only and best example I have about this is Katawa shoujo.

 

The scenes were not vulgar, not particularily graphic. It was just two people in love having sex together.

And these scenes were sometimes cute, sometimes funny, sometimes awkward (Once useless *cough* Shizune *Cough*).

But in most of the cases, these aren't parts of the VN I would get rid of.

 

So yeah, in my opinion, ero can be relevant to a story to some extent.

 

Sometimes H is also included to disturb the reader like in Saya no Uta for example. That's fine to.

 

And trying to include Hentai in the scenario as a necessary element in order to justify it is stupid.

There are so many ways not to add some that this argument makes me giggle.

 

 

I'm not saying Hentai is bad at all ^^", but it's kinda sloppy to try and justify its presence in my opinion.

[hsmsful]

What I mostly want to understand is why they put too much effort in them , I mean in a sex scene , I will find lke 5-7 CGs , in one scene but in other scenes there is only like 1 CG if it exists!

So why are they wasting money on these H scenes that are mostly useless?

[Guest]

What I mostly want to understand is why they put too much effort in them , I mean in a sex scene , I will find lke 5-7 CGs , in one scene but in other scenes there is only like 1 CG if it exists!

So why are they wasting money on these H scenes that are mostly useless?

 

A H scene is usually 2 CG's with some details changed in them.

For example facial expressions : eyes and mouth change

or simply sweat and cum :/

 

Quite often the Hentai CG's have lower quality in terms of drawing and coloring and sometimes aren't even drawn by the same artists.

[Okami]

A few points regarding the discussion.

 

First calling people perverts of a forum about Visual Novel which in 90% of the case contain some form of Hentai or porn is wrong.

It's wrong regarding the definition of perversion and it's wrong because you don't go on an Visual Novel (mainly eroge) forum calling people perverts.

 

You may find it moraly/whatever disputable that's your point of view but don't call other people out on it.

At least not here.

 

And it's kinda hypocritical.

 

Back on the topic.

 

Most of the time Eroge producers and fans like to justify the H content saying it adds to the story or whatnot.

That it's in the contnuity of a loving relationship, that it shows passion and so on.

^Bullshit.

 

First step is to admit that most of the H content is there for being Hentai and to arouse the reader or give "fap material" (classy).

You don't show a loving relationship with genitalia, a girl making overexagerrated facial expressions, moaning every second, sweating, talking useless and senseless words during the act, and so on (the list goes on for ever).

Hopefully that will have convinced you that : NO hentai isn't relevant.

 

However !

I don't think erotism isn't.

I don't think showing two characters making love is wrong at all.

The only and best example I have about this is Katawa shoujo.

 

The scenes were not vulgar, not particularily graphic. It was just two people in love having sex together.

And these scenes were sometimes cute, sometimes funny, sometimes awkward (Once useless *cough* Shizune *Cough*).

But in most of the cases, these aren't parts of the VN I would get rid of.

 

So yeah, in my opinion, ero can be relevant to a story to some extent.

 

Sometimes H is also included to disturb the reader like in Saya no Uta for example. That's fine to.

 

And trying to include Hentai in the scenario as a necessary element in order to justify it is stupid.

There are so many ways not to add some that this argument makes me giggle.

 

 

I'm not saying Hentai is bad at all ^^", but it's kinda sloppy to try and justify its presence in my opinion.

 

First of all this in not mainly eroge forum, secondly people who like perverted things are perverts that's just a fact, just as people who use drugs are junkies, people who rape are rapists, people who are addicted to alcohol are alcoholics, people who like perverted things are perverts, simple as that.

 

Back on a topic, I don't like erotism either however I could understand a need for it in some stories (True those some are like 5% or less of all eroges) as showing that 2 people had sex is sometimes part of a story, but you don't need a porn to show that.

But even erotism is needed in just small % of stories and the proof for it is just accepting to admit how forced H-scenes are in most titles.

[SanadaShadow]

Why do people believe H-scenes are necessary? I've read countless masterpieces that were all-ages or teens rather than 18+, and even the bulk of the 18+ I've read don't require a single H-scene. I feel like the artists and writers are trying to make up for what they lack by adding in some eye candy for us. Which ends up giving me negative reviews of otherwise great VNs. I mean, look at Nitro+'s Science Adventure Game Series, or Key's entire franchise. Not a single H-scene. I feel that H-scenes sully otherwise great titles like G-SNM, which would be perfect if it weren't for the sex scenes.

 

However, let it not be said that H-scenes cannot be used as plot devices. No, not like the makeout session in Mass Effect, more like the scenes of Cross+Channel.

I remember one girl that thought you killed her step-brother, when he himself had committed suicide. However, if you 'harassed' her in her route, you would be killed by her later that week. However, if you got the chance and didn't make a move when given a choice, she would take a liking to you and eventually follow your orders.

 

Therefore, H-scenes are on the most part, unnecessary. However, if one can change a plot or at least add a new element to it instead of being there just for you to start jacking off to, it would be more liked by me.

[hsmsful]

First of all this in not mainly eroge forum, secondly people who like perverted things are perverts that's just a fact, just as people who use drugs are junkies, people who rape are rapists, people who are addicted to alcohol are alcoholics, people who like perverted things are perverts, simple as that.

 

Back on a topic, I don't like erotism either however I could understand a need for it in some stories (True those some are like 5% or less of all eroges) as showing that 2 people had sex is sometimes part of a story, but you don't need a porn to show that.

But even erotism is needed in just small % of stories and the proof for it is just accepting to admit how forced H-scenes are in most titles.

There is a difference between people who do perverted things and people who like perverted things.

Anyways you both are making a big deal our of the word pervert

It doesn't really matter!

What we are saying is that they are few people who like H scenes and I think they shouldn't be a part of the story , and those who don't want them can just skip them and those who want them can just watch them .... it is pretty simple so what the authors are doing by adding H scenes to appeal to the kind who likes them isn't entirely wrong thou is unnecessary

 

A H scene is usually 2 CG's with some details changed in them.

For example facial expressions : eyes and mouth change

or simply sweat and cum :/

 

Quite often the Hentai CG's have lower quality in terms of drawing and coloring and sometimes aren't even drawn by the same artists.

Well yeah if you count the changed features as CGs  there will be a big difference

Anyways 2 CGs still cost money so why are they wasting such money when it won't make any difference as they are useless and unnecessary

[Vokoca]

I've sidestepped around this topic for quite a long time, though I guess I throw in my opinion as well.

 

I can actually think of a VN where the h-scenes are absolutely pivotal to the whole work itself - though, to be fair, that whole work is a deconstruction of eroge itself, which, obviously, is a medium full of h content. Sure, the h-scenes are there for the usual reasons, but even that fact itself is used in favour of its whole concept. I'm not going to name the VN since that'd probably completely spoil it, but the people who read most of Nitro+ work should know what I'm talking about.

 

That said, that is just a rare exception, and one that pretty much just proves the rule. The VN itself flat out admits that you are supposed to fap to that, which is why the scenes are so detailed in the first place, it's silly to deny that. Sure, I can think of some VNs where the h-scenes could be used to disturb the reader, such as Saya no Uta or Muramasa - but honestly, I think you could fap to that too if you tried (some people might even without trying ).

 

I generally dislike h-scenes and they get worse the longer they are, but I'd be lying if I claimed I never liked any. I really don't like them when they clash with the story, but if they are worked in well enough (or, in some cases even manage to add to it), it isn't so bad. Lets not forget that VNs definitely are not the only medium with sex in it, there are plenty of other works - books, movies, games - with those themes depicted one way or the other.

 

Can it fit to a specific kind of a story? Yes. Can it add to it? Yes, it can. But is it necessary? No, I wouldn't say so.

 

 

Well yeah if you count the changed features as CGs  there will be a big difference

Anyways 2 CGs still cost money so why are they wasting such money when it won't make any difference as they are useless and unnecessary

 

Because h is what sells in Japan? That's my guess, anyway.

[Funnerific]

You play things like Saya no Uta expecting all sorts of dark stuff so it's not as disturbing, but when you get an NTR scene in something that doesn't look dark at first glance and isn't a nukige when you least expect it it adds a lot to the impact. The game just wouldn't be the same without it. There's people who can't stand these things at all, but I appreciate the game invoking strong emotions within me - so long as the story is good.

[zoom909]

People are constantly conflating ordinary human lust with sexual perversion, so for those of you who care about morality, here it is:

A guy desiring naked girls or sex acts, real or.in pictures, that's called "lust."

Perversion is something more profound.  I am sure you all know what sexually perverse acts are, but I'll give you some examples nonetheless.  Pedophilia.  Homosexuality.  Bestiality.  Incest.  And so on.

 

And, I too feel it is a good idea not to just call people who like H-scenes "perverts".  I would not make that kind of judgment on a person so easily...

[Down]

 

Homosexuality

Oh boy. Tell me you just slipped and don't really think that homosexuality is a perversion. Otherwise I fear what this thread will become. Again.

[Guest]

People are constantly conflating ordinary human lust with sexual perversion, so for those of you who care about morality, here it is:

A guy desiring naked girls or sex acts, real or.in pictures, that's called "lust."

Perversion is something more profound.  I am sure you all know what sexually perverse acts are, but I'll give you some examples nonetheless.  Pedophilia.  Homosexuality.  Bestiality.  Incest.  And so on.

Hello, yeah it's 21st century calling.

Please tell me it's a mistake --', other wise it's an incredibly stupid comment.

*totally out of topic but w/e*

[zoom909]

Hello, yeah it's 21st century calling.

Please tell me it's a mistake --', other wise it's an incredibly stupid comment.

*totally out of topic but w/e*

 

I'm afraid not.

All of them are perversions.

Or none of them are.

Your choice.

 

I'm going to edit this so I don't have to come back into this thread anymore.

 

You may or may not be aware of it, but sexual morality is based on the principle that sex should be used to procreate the human race (ideally in wedlock).  The pleasure involved is just a side effect.  Hence the traditional rules against sexual activity which is not going to result in procreation.

 

I am well aware that many in modern society reject this notion of sexual morality.  If you do, nothing I type here matters.  That's why I prefaced my original comment with "if you care about morality..."

Edited June 21, 2014 by zoom909

[babiker]

Okami, please. dont you remember the last topic that got locked? This is a site for civilized debate  and discussion. Even if everyone you were calling a pervert was indeed one, its still not right to call people that. its like if you were a christian and you went to an atheist, and called him a "dammed disbeliever who's only end will be hell". yes, according to the book, thats right. but according to the simple laws of civilized conversation and debate, its called being rude.

 

When it comes to h, not only would i say there unnecessary, i would go to the point of saying its the most thing keeping VN's as rare and as weird as they are. but i would still go with this suggestion:-

 

Well I don't know if it was mentioned before but the solution from my point of view is to do what Katawa Shoujo did

The skipping H scenes option , it was so good and so useful especially since I am not a fan of H scenes

All games should do that, but well tbh they aren't necessary at all as long as they don't affect the storyline

but i still wouldn't go around calling people names because they believe something else

[Funnerific]

I'm going to side with zoom909 on this one. Why is pedophilia a perversion but homosexuality isn't? Both are just swinging which way.

 

Besides, all this is nothing much, because the real perversions are called fetishes.

[killerjuan77]

I'm going to side with zoom909 on this one. Why is pedophilia a perversion but homosexuality isn't? Both are just swinging which way.

 

Besides, all this is nothing much, because the real perversions are called fetishes.

Because having interest on people of the same sex as you is equal to having a sexual attraction towards kids and teenagers. That's effing ridiculous! What kind of logic is that?!

 

Anyways, I don't think they are necessary at all, I just skip them. Hell, something like Euphoria could work better if it avoided the strong sexual (And violent) scenes and if they just had text, voices and music. Unfortunately h-scenes are going to be part of VN's for a while.

 

I still find it stupid that developers can't figure out they are limiting their sales by doing so.

[Nosebleed]

Is this discussion about perversion still going?

 

I agree with maef, trying to justify H is really hard and most of the time it just goes around in circles, and why do you need to try to justify it anyway? You can just straight up admit you want H for the faps. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, everyone has sexual drive for different things (I'm sorry if I offend anyone that feels so strongly about hating hentai that they consider themselves asexual) and that is perfectly fine. You can say you think H adds to the plot and that you sometimes find some h-scenes romantic and whatnot, that's fine too. They are still at the end of the day h-scenes and everyone sees them differently.

 

For those that don't like H. Skip the h-scenes, almost every single VN has a skip button.

If more VNs added the "remove h-content" button, that'd be even greater.

You'll still get your story in all its glory and you won't have to look at things you don't like.

If you like h-scenes then enjoy the entirety of it.

Is this such a hard thing to do?

 

The industry doesn't need to change anything, they're trying to target more people, even if some/most of those people just want to fap to something, what matters is they are costumers that buy the product and that supports the creators regardless of the intentions.

Is that a little lazy/cheap? Perhaps, but it's not going to change in the near future and the fact is the story is still going to be there if you want to read it, just don't look at the h aspect of it, plain and simple.

 

I won't deny some vns do utilize h-scenes in a better way like Katawa Shoujo or Saya no Uta but you know most of them are just there for fanservice, that's a fact.

 

All this discussion about trying to justify h-scenes and calling people who enjoy them perverts is beyond the point in my opinion.

 

You like something that's different than what someone else likes? So what? We have the ability to think on a subjective level. You're never going to agree on the same aspects. And this whole morality thing is the same, everyone has different morals, nothing new to see here.

You might strongly disagree with someone's morals but hey welcome to the 21st century.

[Down]

 

I'm going to side with zoom909 on this one. Why is pedophilia a perversion but homosexuality isn't? Both are just swinging which way.

 

Besides, all this is nothing much, because the real perversions are called fetishes.

No.

 

A perversion, all pejorative connotations put aside, is a deviance from the sexual norm. Not just unusual sexual interests, something intense, consisting of the majority of one's sexual arousing, and potentially distressing.

And homosexuality isn't recognized as a perversion. Because homosexuality is recognized as within the sexual norm. Not in every country, but that's well on its way. I don't like the idea of "norm", but I don't like either the idea of light forms of sexual deviance being called 'deviance'. Thus if we use the word "perversion", let it be used for something of the order of magnitude of a mental disorder, not just some casual unusual sexual interest. Then maybe we can claim that none of the things that were cited are actually perversions, but that's still very arguable because I don't think the words 'pedophilia' or 'bestiality' are merely describing tastes.

 

As for fetishes, they're on the contrary something lighter than that most of the times, although they can lead to sexual disorder. A lolicon just happens to be aroused by drawn little girls in sexual situations. Nothing to do with a pedophile who is aroused quasi-exclusively by little girls, and whose sexual drive can cause distress for himself and become a mental disorder. Of course the cut-line isn't clear, but you get the idea.

[Mephisto]

Zoom's stance on sexual perversion is that sexual acts outside of the fulfilling the action of procreation = sexual perversion from what I understand. 

 

That's why homosexuality is sexual perversion. 

 

This also means of course, that anal sex is sexual perversion. I don't see this view as hating on homosexuals or people who like particular fetishes or anything, I think he was simply providing something that would hopefully (?) close out the off topic discussion earlier. (Although maybe ignoring off topic things would be best. People all have their own thoughts and opinions on the definition of terms). 

 

 

 

Regarding H-scenes being necessary in VNs, it really depends on how they are implemented. If they are implemented in a way that actively damages the story since they were obviously pushing boundaries in order to include H-scenes inside the game, then the game would've been better off without them. (Solid example would be "Sex under the necessity" which is like mandatory sex in order to restore magical energy or something. Showcased in Fate stay night, also in sora wo aogite.) 

 

That doesn't mean that all H-scenes are bad. There are games in which the h-scenes actually fit in to the story and aren't retarded, for example the singular H-scene in Aiyoku no Eustia. (That doesn't mean the writing for it wasn't fucking terrible and I ended up skipping through it anyway.) However that h-scene actually fit (and it's the only one you get in about 50k+ lines of text soo) in to the story.

 

Another example would be the Rance series in which the protagonists drive to do stuff is literally to have sex with women. The h-scenes are usually pretty short (well not in Rance 9... but lol), but obviously the game wouldn't be complete at all without them. 

[Narcosis]

Define "sexual norm". In the end, what you get is actually just a voice of majority. It's the exact same as with democracy being an opressive state of the masses against the rest. Even if we're talking about moral norms, they have nothing to do with sexuality, since everything is purely subjective and each place on this planet abides by different sets of rules.

You can't convince people raised in a strict moral enviroment; the same thing that feds people with arguments to justify homophobic and xenophobic behaviour towards everything which is different to protect their blessed state of affairs.

I find it funny people always take those lighthearted topics so seriously.

Learn to enjoy what you get and don't forget that something you may not like, isn't necesarilly something, someone will dislike as well; Having choices is good.

[Guest]

Extreme cases put aside, saying "I was raised that what way so I think that way" is a lame excuse.

And its a statement I particularily hate.

Everybody has a brain, next step is using it.

 

I absolutely hate going off topic, but the amount of s*** that is said is ... I don't even have words.

 

Oh and the point of a debate is exchanging ideas and convince.

Saying "it's only a matter of opinions" is a valid yet useless statement.

 

And it makes me laugh how so many people use some kind of religious definition of perversion as a base for what they say.

You are several centuries late people, things evolve, the morals evolve, get up to date please.

Homosexuality is not a perversion anymore, we don't seek for witches anymore either.

 

Can we please close this thread ... it's incredibly frustrating.

And people already said over and over the same things about the main topic anyway, me included.

[Down]

We're running in circle indeed. Let's close off. A new thread for other related topics would be healthier.