VN reading club - June 2015 (Yume Miru Kusuri)

[Nosebleed]

I agree. Seeing this seriously gave me the feels too:

 

I think I legit teared up a little with happiness.

Oh god, the feels!

That was so beautiful <3

 

I might just go re-read her route again.

[Kurokusari]

Welp done with Aeka's and Nekoko's route while I dropped/stalled Mizuki's. 

I only saw two dogs in the heat in her route and some stuff that are less sensible for me.

 

First off, some strange things I observed in the game. The story was good, that's what I really think but some stuff made the experience less so. I have no idea why but the sprites seems to really lack in variety. I meant that per character, which made some scenes make less sense so I thought it would be better off with me relying on voice and context even more than average. Well not that I mind but I guess they probably had some problems in the development. Another one would be the how the music was used. When I finished the two routes I thought that there was some serious lack of number in music only to discover that they had 18 (excluding OP and ED) tracks. I didn't use any efficiency guide so I just skipped through read text and it made me realize that they used some music at short intervals. I appreciate saving the good music for the best scenes but that was being too conservative. These two things really made some scenes less than desirable but they still did a good job.

 

Welp enough of the technical stuff. Off to Aeka's route~

Something I really value about her route is her theme and the degree of realism it has. My value in her theme is purely only on my part so I won't say much. All I'll say is that I experienced both ends.

 

About the realism of the degree, it's something I have no idea if it's purely plausible. I've only seen news about bullying that drove students to suicide but I have no idea if it really happens this hard. I gave it the benefit of the doubt but after reading some stuff here, it seems that at it's at least partly possible. Frankly, I thought it was overblown when I was reading it since the teachers really were being asses and ignored the stuff in front of them. I don't think you'll be in the education business if you can stomach that kind of stuff. Now this is something that really failed or I'm probably just an idiot that can't understand it, the reason for bullying. In stories about bullying, there's always the reason why the bully is doing it. In this case, it says that the reason is jealousy because Gaito hit on Aeka during the first day. Now, here's is when things don't make sense. Really? Jealousy? Looking at them I don't see a couple at all. I didn't see any ounce of affection between then AND there was never any statements that said that "Oh they looked like a really good couple before." or anything remote to that. Meaning, is this really jealousy? I doubt it. What could be the reason then? I don't think she's afraid of Gaito. She managed to pull him by the ear in front of the class. If it's for some sort of power then she already has enough with her cronies and her massive influence. Later on it will be said that it turned to pleasure due to the regular occurrence but bringing out scissors with a mad look on your face doesn't really look pleasurable if you ask me.

 

Edit: Someone explained this to me through PM and I'm buying it. I'll leave it to someone else to explain it ~

 

Even when I said all that it's just two stuff that didn't really fly. The irrational antagonist (which is really important imo) and the fact that the school's administration didn't do anything. The resolution in this one is something I really enjoyed. Sure, you can look at it like they're running away but Aeka's too eccentric for normal people. Fixing that up will really change her and maybe not make her Aeka anymore. Making up with Antoinette and the others is really out of the question. Your woman was almost raped and you drove the perpetrator to the verge of death. Not really something you can just laugh about and be done with. If I'll add anything else it'll be the fact that I didn't grow to like Aeka. Sympathize, yes, and may even empathize, but never like. It's probably because I can't agree with how she dealt with things but that's something that's up to her, not me. Still, 2weird4me.

 

Btw can anyone tell me what he means by him being personality-less? That was something I really can't get my head around since he has a personality imo. Not the best but it's there. Or is just my understanding of the term wrong?

 

And is it just me or is there a massive amount of h-scenes? Of course, in relation to the length of the VN. I understand Aeka's since it's part of their deal but even that was a tad excessive.

 

Nekoko's route was something that was a lot better for me in comparison to Aeka's. No, I can't relate to her specific problem, that would be bad.

I enjoyed reading how they dealt with her drug-addiction problem, even the failed attempts. And the ending really packed a punch. The feels and the sense of happiness of finally conquering your demons while being able to show the results. And I did not see it coming when it was revealed who she was. I should've known with the subtle enough hints (mysterious sprite, saying that I've met her before, location of the book where Nekoko's name was from, etc) but I guess the story really got me going.

[Nosebleed]

I think the h-scenes here serve more as escapism and the sheer amount of them can kind of be excused because of that.

Still though I didn't think there were that many, I've seen more...

[Kurokusari]

I think the h-scenes here serve more as escapism and the sheer amount of them can kind of be excused because of that.

Still though I didn't think there were that many, I've seen more...

Nekoko's had 6/14 so almost 50% of the route.

Aeka's had 5/13 roughly a third of the route.

And Geezus Crais Mizuki had 7/12 or possibly more since I'm missing the last 2 scenes.

 

I guess I haven't read enough if there are even more than this gawd.

[Nosebleed]

Well, for one they were fairly short.

So even though the quantity was high a lot of them were just quickies.

I'd say in terms of length, when added together, they would be similar your standard eroge still.

But the fact remains, all the girls use sex as a form of escapism because they don't want to think abouttheir worries, they just want to forget about it all.

With the exception of Nekoko I guess, cause she was as high as a kite.

So i didn't feel particularly bothered by them.

[Kurokusari]

The only thing that bothered me about them is the sheer number. Sex coming out repeatedly isn't something I really enjoy so I'd rather burn through a long one but that's just a personal preference. Some might even enjoy it lol

 

Like you said, it's reasoned out why they did it so the act itself really didn't bother me. Just the quantity.

[Fred the Barber]

I didn't go for any particular heroine, just made the decisions that I would personally make. To my surprise, that meant I ended up on Mizuki's route, rather than Aeka's, where I anticipated landing.

 

I've read Mizuki's route all the way through so far, and agree completely with the "too many H-scenes" sentiment. I'm not a big fan of them to begin with, so you should take my commentary with a grain of salt, but this is far and away more than any VN I've read previously, in an absolute sense, and especially relative to the length of the VN. Maybe 30% of the time in Mizuki's route was spent in H-scenes? More? It's way over the top. After the fourth or fifth, I considered just dropping the VN entirely... but I soldier on!

 

Now, spoilerish thoughts on Mizuki's route and how I got there:

In the common route, I was being nice to both Aeka and Mizuki (and being a jerk to Nekoko because she annoyed the crap out of me). Mizuki makes a move pretty fast, and even though I tried to resist, it turns out Mizuki doesn't take "No" for an answer, so I ended up pretty committed there.

 

Her route is ... crazy. I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm going to say the same thing about Nekoko, but definitely crazy. It makes me seriously happy I am not now nor have I ever been in a relationship with a person like that.

 

I ended up getting the bad end first, which was actually rather rough. Being a feels masochist, I appreciated that; it was nothing spectacular, but it was a nice little sucker-punch that I really didn't see coming. And when I went back with a guide and got the good end, it made me feel quite warm and fuzzy.

 

That said, I got seriously annoyed when I grabbed the guide and found that the reason I got a bad end was a single incorrect choice: I had the character try (and fail) to choose not to ejaculate due to Mizuki stimulating him with her feet. Wut.

 

In general, I liked the way the a lot of the choices were structured, especially during the common route, but so many of them (and especially that one) during Mizuki's route just seemed ... dumb. It never even crossed my mind that that decision mattered for anything other than maybe avoiding yet another H CG. The fact that your good ending hinges on an idiotic choice like that is simply dumb.

 

Anyway, on to Nekoko's route (I only do the "follow my heart" choices the first time, since, well... I don't want to end up doing the same route over and over again). I'm saving Aeka for last, at this point, since I actually feel an emotional connection with that character, unlike the other two heroines...

[Kurokusari]

I didn't go for any particular heroine, just made the decisions that I would personally make. To my surprise, that meant I ended up on Mizuki's route, rather than Aeka's, where I anticipated landing.

 

I've read Mizuki's route all the way through so far, and agree completely with the "too many H-scenes" sentiment. I'm not a big fan of them to begin with, so you should take my commentary with a grain of salt, but this is far and away more than any VN I've read previously, in an absolute sense, and especially relative to the length of the VN. Maybe 30% of the time in Mizuki's route was spent in H-scenes? More? It's way over the top. After the fourth or fifth, I considered just dropping the VN entirely... but I soldier on!

 

Now, spoilerish thoughts on Mizuki's route and how I got there:

In the common route, I was being nice to both Aeka and Mizuki (and being a jerk to Nekoko because she annoyed the crap out of me). Mizuki makes a move pretty fast, and even though I tried to resist, it turns out Mizuki doesn't take "No" for an answer, so I ended up pretty committed there.

 

Her route is ... crazy. I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm going to say the same thing about Nekoko, but definitely crazy. It makes me seriously happy I am not now nor have I ever been in a relationship with a person like that.

 

I ended up getting the bad end first, which was actually rather rough. Being a feels masochist, I appreciated that; it was nothing spectacular, but it was a nice little sucker-punch that I really didn't see coming. And when I went back with a guide and got the good end, it made me feel quite warm and fuzzy.

 

That said, I got seriously annoyed when I grabbed the guide and found that the reason I got a bad end was a single incorrect choice: I had the character try (and fail) to choose not to ejaculate due to Mizuki stimulating him with her feet. Wut.

 

In general, I liked the way the a lot of the choices were structured, especially during the common route, but so many of them (and especially that one) during Mizuki's route just seemed ... dumb. It never even crossed my mind that that decision mattered for anything other than maybe avoiding yet another H CG. The fact that your good ending hinges on an idiotic choice like that is simply dumb.

 

Anyway, on to Nekoko's route (I only do the "follow my heart" choices the first time, since, well... I don't want to end up doing the same route over and over again). I'm saving Aeka for last, at this point, since I actually feel an emotional connection with that character, unlike the other two heroines...

 . . . I didn't know that h-scene choices could possible affect the fate of your heroine in that way. And yes, if you've read the guide there are choices when either choice would contribute to Mizuki's affection lol. I guess that would really make getting into her route fairly easier than the other two.

 

I can confidently say that Nekoko's route is waaaay better than Mizuki's. Aeka's would probably be influenced greatly by personal experiences so I can't say much but you did say that you feel for her due to her theme. Maybe you'll enjoy it or reopen the scars of the past 

[Zalor]

yeah I understand that, everything you described is the "train" he is imagining, but my complain was that they show her naked a lot of time without any reason (just for the sake of showing an underage girl naked without saying she is, for example when she is with her friends they dont show them, why? because you can figure it out her age that way (if your friends look like her then she is underage and not just a girl that looks really really young), in fact she doesnt go to the same school as you for no real reason either.... and they dont say her age not once on purpose, so you can't figure out anything about her except for the joke that she is "20"

 

Fair enough. I agree that a couple of the Aya scenes were used primarily as fanservice in bad taste. 

[Deep Blue]

was I the only one that played the entire route of Mizuka imagining that she was Yumiko from grisaia? It was really annoying

btw I really don't like the translation of the game, this is one of those "americanized translation" I really hate that...

[Kurokusari]

was I the only one that played the entire route of Mizuka imagining that she was Yumiko from grisaia? It was really annoying

btw I really don't like the translation of the game, this is one of those "americanized translation" I really hate that...

I saw more of a Kagome because of the confident and aloof attitude lol

You're not alone on the translation. It's pretty obvious when Mizuki's calling the protag by name and yet written as 'boy'. Same with him being called by name when he's called by 'Nii-san' by Aya. I'm not a native english speaker but does being called Big Brother equals affectionate?

[Nosebleed]

I saw more of a Kagome because of the confident and aloof attitude lol

You're not alone on the translation. It's pretty obvious when Mizuki's calling the protag by name and yet written as 'boy'. Same with him being called by name when he's called by 'Nii-san' by Aya. I'm not a native english speaker but does being called Big Brother equals affectionate?

No, in English you rarely do that, it sounds weird calling your sibling "big brother". You'd mostly use given names, maybe bro or something one word long (that's what my sister calls me), but not "big brother".

I absolutely abhor any translation that does this.

[Deep Blue]

I saw more of a Kagome because of the confident and aloof attitude lol

You're not alone on the translation. It's pretty obvious when Mizuki's calling the protag by name and yet written as 'boy'. Same with him being called by name when he's called by 'Nii-san' by Aya. I'm not a native english speaker but does being called Big Brother equals affectionate?

there are tons of expresions that are left out and instead they put just some random american slang, I don't think so but I still prefer if she calls him "brother" which doesnt fit with the story, it's hard to find a good term for it so why not just leave nii-san?

(she calls him nii-san but there is this gap between them so it doesnt really mean "brother" that's why he complain sometimes..inside his head

)

Oh and one of the Mizuki's faces is really weird and creeps me out

 

What's going on with her smile on the right? her mouth is so big it looks like some kind of toad or frog

[Kurokusari]

No, in English you rarely do that, it sounds weird calling your sibling "big brother". You'd mostly use given names, maybe bro or something one word long (that's what my sister calls me), but not "big brother".

I absolutely abhor any translation that does this.

Well that clears it up.

 

there are tons of expresions that are left out and instead they put just some random american slang, I don't think so but I still prefer if she calls her "brother" which doesnt fit with the story, it's hard to find a good term for it so why not just leave nii-san?

(she calls him nii-san but there is this gap between them so it doesnt really mean "brother" that's why he complain sometimes..inside his head

)

Oh and one of the Mizuki's faces is really weird and creeps me out

 

What's going on with her smile on the right? her mouth is so big it looks like some kind of toad or frog

I believe that smile is a wry smile, I think. Although honestly, it looks like she's holding back her laughter.

[Fred the Barber]

Oh and one of the Mizuki's faces is really weird and creeps me out

 

What's going on with her smile on the right? her mouth is so big it looks like some kind of toad or frog

 

100% agreed. I do get the correct emotion off it, but it still looks weird.

 

On the nii-san thing: I think they're trying to find an Anglicized way to differentiate between "nii-san" and "nii-chan" (I think it was? at any rate, some more affectionate term), which at one point Kouhei gripes about wanting to be called. I don't fault them much for doing this, though: everybody in this thread is probably going to be happier seeing the original form of address, because form of address in Japanese is very important for communicating relationship, and we get that. However, the vast majority of English speakers are going to be confused as hell by "nii-san". Granted, that vast majority isn't all that likely to be playing VNs, but optimizing the translation for us weebs means decreasing your appeal to a very large market.

 

 

I saw more of a Kagome because of the confident and aloof attitude lol

 

It's probably helping with that impression that the same voice actress voices both Mizuki and Kagome (and also Kurugaya from Little Busters! - which I now can't help but think of every time she calls Kouhei "shounen").

[Nosebleed]

Nobody says big brother though.

And that pun can be portrayed by using some more common nouns like bro, brother and even dear brother, but big brother is just plain weird to call someone. I'm talking in English terms here, it just sounds so weird.

If you're taking out nii-san, at least replace it with a noun people actually use in everyday life.

[LinovaA]

I would be some level off put if my sibling called me "big brother" ... or brother. Bro is the only thing I have ever really been called.

 

ANYWAY! I just finished Mizuki's route.

I also had some issues with the translation, but they weren't so bad as to take away from anything too major. What was really hurting me was spelling errors. Those were what really threw me off.

 

I loved the way they ended the route. If there is one thing that always matters to me, it is the very last line of a written work. Too many times I find that a final line kinda just falls flat. I mean, I will still love the ending if it is a well done ending, but I'll usually just have this little thing causing an itch in the back of my mind.

 

Mizuki's ending had one of those last lines that really stroked that spot for me. All in all, a very well done route, albeit... with a few too many h-scenes and one really dumb necessary choice for the good end.

 

Edit: As an additional... it also made me feel something I don't feel very often.

...

I usually hate children, and the very thought of having children.

This route was one of the few exceptions to that feeling, instead standing on the complete opposite end.

 

Will read Aeka's route tomorrow. I did Nekoko's route just before I stalled this VN, and I have decided not to replay it, despite how much I loved it the first time through.

[Heizei_koukousei]

Finished Mizuki's route last night

I haven't played the other routes yet but I have heard some talk about how unrealistic Aeka's route was (though that is only an opinion of those who haven't directly experienced bullying). As for Mizuki's route, I thought that the events were believable and made logical sense based on the theme of interpersonal relationships. The pacing of the story suddenly took off about 2/3 of the way through when Mizuki got Kouhei all drugged up. Otherwise the storytelling was not bad. The comedic moments were well balanced, and in my opinion, the H-scenes were not excessive. The heroine suffered from depression, having many thoughts of death. It is no wonder that she would want to experience as much pleasure as she possibly could. If you complained about the h-scenes, you didn't get into the story enough. 

 

I was pleased with the ending of the route, but could have been more emotionally attached to the situation if the whole becoming a family thing was given more attention. 

[Turnip Sensei]

I did the Mizuki route first too, mostly because I'm almost always drawn to the bigger, more mature girls.

Anyways, I'm not really sure what to think about this yet. I liked the story, but at the same time I expected something bigger and more complicated. That and the abundance of H-scenes made it kind of mixed bag for me.

Still I really liked the darker parts and when the characters actions got out of hand, especially the crazy H-scenes. (

foreboding piece that played during some of the scenes was amazing)

To me the VN shined the most in those desperate and unordinary situations.  

[Zenophilious]

Finished Nekoko's route last night.  Unfortunately, it didn't affect me as much as a I thought it would  :/

 

Her route in a nutshell:

 

Anyway, like I said, I didn't really get emotionally invested until the end, for some reason.  I mean, I was interested in finding out why she was doing all that fairy stuff and who she really was, but for some reason I hadn't formed an emotional attachment to her character until she was "unmasked" as Hiroko.  Really enjoyed the end of her route, though.  Dem feels got me in the end.  I also felt that a few of the h-scenes were a little unnecessary, but I get why there were so many.  The last one was the only one with any real impact, though.

 

I thought it went on for a little longer than it needed to.  That kinda worked against my enjoyment of the route, since nothing really interesting was happening besides Nekoko getting high and screwing around with Kouhei.

 

Time to go to Aeka's route.

[Sovereign1612]

Finished Nekoko's route last night.  Unfortunately, it didn't affect me as much as a I thought it would  :/

 

Her route in a nutshell:

 

Anyway, like I said, I didn't really get emotionally invested until the end, for some reason.  I mean, I was interested in finding out why she was doing all that fairy stuff and who she really was, but for some reason I hadn't formed an emotional attachment to her character until she was "unmasked" as Hiroko.  Really enjoyed the end of her route, though.  Dem feels got me in the end.  I also felt that a few of the h-scenes were a little unnecessary, but I get why there were so many.  The last one was the only one with any real impact, though.

 

I thought it went on for a little longer than it needed to.  That kinda worked against my enjoyment of the route, since nothing really interesting was happening besides Nekoko getting high and screwing around with Kouhei.

 

Time to go to Aeka's route.

I agree

Aeka's route is probably the best one

and her route makes more sense then the other routes

(keep in mind that's just my personal opinion)

[Nosebleed]

While I really liked Aeka's route, I found it lackluster in comparison to Nekoko's route.

Yes it was more of an emotional ride as a whole, but it was still pretty normal in terms of the way it plays out, it's more straightforward. 

I found Nekoko's route much more intriguing and mysterious and it made me want to discover everything that was going on with Nekoko's character, and the ending in comparison packed a much bigger punch than Aeka's ending.

 

At least for me, I just can't shake off the feels I got from Nekoko.

[Deep Blue]

I like how they talk about aeka when you are doing the other girls routes, "she tried to commit suicide...not a big problem, she is fine...or not...who knows. Well now continue with the story" Again, this is why I don't like vns with multiple stories.

[Jakez123]

Ugh....I feel bad saying this, but this VN has left me disappointed. I've only done Nekoko's route and Aeko's route, but in my opinion it was severely lacklustre. I felt the numerous H-scenes really did detract from the experience. I just couldn't really care about the characters. 

 

Neko's route:
 

Maybe I misread something in her scene, but where does she go in the bad ending? She just disappears? Maybe I read it too quick, but that stumped me. Overall the "twist" at the end was expected, they always say watch out for those silent characters who constantly appear, eg the librarian girl.

 

Aeko's Route:

 

I just felt like this was too unrealistic, I'm not from Japan so I don't know if bullying is like that over there, but why didn't everyone just band together? As for the MC's "friends", what dicks.

Also I did not understand why I received a bad ending for choosing to "Go outside", choosing that makes Aeko commit suicide, yet if you choose "Stay inside", she turns up for the date? I don't understand why the smallest choice swerved the results to either extremes. I mean, say for example, if "Going outside", meant that you hanged around with the bully girl all day, Aeko sees it, then commits suicide, I would understand. But the choice pretty much has you go to a burger restaurant, talk to a "friend", eat a burger, the go to the meeting place, how does this small choice drive Aeko to jump off a building?

Either way, I couldn't care about Aeko either

 

I have yet to play MIzuki's route. The game kept saying stuff like "Visual novels normally have characters that only appear after you complete the game once, that way you can do the story after you've done everything else", I'm hoping there's like a secret heroine, because I'll rather have a route with Aya or Tsubaki, both characters are infinitely better IMO.

 

Also last question about Aeko's route 

I assumed the bully girl liked the MC or something? Why did she always call out to him, I don't understand.

 

 

Overall so far I'm not enjoying the Novel, the music is pretty bad, I dislike the characters and the routes are short. But I guess this is expected when you just finish VNs like Comyu and Ayakashibito and then head into this, it pales in comparison. (I forgot who recommended the latter to me, but I really do appreciate it, it was amazing).

[Kurokusari]

Ugh....I feel bad saying this, but this VN has left me disappointed. I've only done Nekoko's route and Aeko's route, but in my opinion it was severely lacklustre. I felt the numerous H-scenes really did detract from the experience. I just couldn't really care about the characters. 

 

Neko's route:

 

Maybe I misread something in her scene, but where does she go in the bad ending? She just disappears? Maybe I read it too quick, but that stumped me. Overall the "twist" at the end was expected, they always say watch out for those silent characters who constantly appear, eg the librarian girl.

 

Aeko's Route:

 

I just felt like this was too unrealistic, I'm not from Japan so I don't know if bullying is like that over there, but why didn't everyone just band together? As for the MC's "friends", what dicks.

Also I did not understand why I received a bad ending for choosing to "Go outside", choosing that makes Aeko commit suicide, yet if you choose "Stay inside", she turns up for the date? I don't understand why the smallest choice swerved the results to either extremes. I mean, say for example, if "Going outside", meant that you hanged around with the bully girl all day, Aeko sees it, then commits suicide, I would understand. But the choice pretty much has you go to a burger restaurant, talk to a "friend", eat a burger, the go to the meeting place, how does this small choice drive Aeko to jump off a building?

Either way, I couldn't care about Aeko either

 

I have yet to play MIzuki's route. The game kept saying stuff like "Visual novels normally have characters that only appear after you complete the game once, that way you can do the story after you've done everything else", I'm hoping there's like a secret heroine, because I'll rather have a route with Aya or Tsubaki, both characters are infinitely better IMO.

 

Also last question about Aeko's route 

I assumed the bully girl liked the MC or something? Why did she always call out to him, I don't understand.

 

 

Overall so far I'm not enjoying the Novel, the music is pretty bad, I dislike the characters and the routes are short. But I guess this is expected when you just finish VNs like Comyu and Ayakashibito and then head into this, it pales in comparison. (I forgot who recommended the latter to me, but I really do appreciate it, it was amazing).

Uhh no offense but this VN might not be really for you. I believe it requires some degree of understanding and looking from the perspective on the heroines since they each have their own problems. Maybe it needs a little bit of experience and affected by the environment you grew up in but that's just me.

 

First off, Nekoko's route:

I haven't read the bad end so I can't comment on that but if you managed to predict who she really is then you're either observant to subtle hints or didn't get engrossed to the story, and I believe it's the latter. There are enough hints to deduce who she really is but it seems you managed it from a bit of guesswork and cliches. 

 

Next up, Aeko's route:

As for not banding up together, it started with just Aeka in their first day, and Antoinette already had a lot of connections back then. No one would think of acting out and being the white knight since you'll be taking the brunt of Antoinette' and her cronies' torture. As for his friends, they're the same and just didn't want to destroy their school life themselves. Also, when Antoinette turned against the protag, they stayed neutral instead of open hostility, I think.

 

Idk if you didn't go for the good end but if you chose to stay inside then, you'll be looking for pics that Aeka wanted. It just simply means that her mental state was really volatile at that point and you can pretty much guess it from her eccentric thinking. I believe this is the byproduct of the mental and physical torture she experiences from her school, and she can't even rest at her own home.

 

And about your question, I think it's just a way to get back at Gaito for cheating on her. I don't think she felt any sort of affection for the protag in the first place since he was also included in the roof incident.

 

If you aren't enjoying the two then you might throw out your monitor on Mizuki's route. Tbh it's the worst out of the three and based from your the VNs you mentioned, your taste is geared towards the action genre and not this kind of emotional trainwrecks.

 

Well these are just my thoughts and feel free to disregard them.