Can somebody explain to me why is this bad [tracing]

[Nekolover]

4 minutes ago, iamnoob said:

Perhaps he is asking the morality of it and not the legality?

That is correct. 

[iamnoob]

9 minutes ago, madvanced said:

Well even if @Zakamutt hates this argument of mine(get tagged scrub), legality and morality are very closely related whether we want it to be or not. Therefore debating legality does have its place in the matter.

But, but......my precious lolis D:

 

8 minutes ago, Asonn said:

stealing / using art that other ppl make is illegal and boy oh boy if that is not morality wrong I don't know what is.

it's stealing other ppl credits for making it. 

 

but I'm done feeding the troll Nekolover and if you're not a troll.... sigh 

That's what I was looking for, and I fully agree. We cannot always link morality to law. For example, there is this law: "It is illegal to view moose from airplanes". Sometimes laws just don't do law well xD

Quote

7 minutes ago, Zakamutt said:

Legality only has its place in discussing potential consequences due to it being illegal, but then you're really arguing based on those results, not because it's legal or not. Laws may often have their origin in moral judgements, but they live a life of their own and whether something is legal or not should not reflect upon its morality.

Also hi neko, you did good. Could use a bit more being out there though like Okami did, would be more entertaining than just unrelenting fury at everything w

This is a better explanation I guess xD.

[Nekolover]

58 minutes ago, Asonn said:

stealing / using art that other ppl make is illegal and boy oh boy if that is not morality wrong I don't know what is.

it's stealing other ppl credits for making it. 

 

but I'm done feeding the troll Nekolover and if you're not a troll.... sigh 

2

Thank you for dismissing yourself.  Again I not asking if illegal or not but the morality of it. Also stop window dressing.  You calling me a troll is your way of saying, I am too lazy to argue or have a calm conversation without shouting like a kid. 

 

1 hour ago, madvanced said:

Well even if @Zakamutt hates this argument of mine(get tagged scrub), legality and morality are very closely related whether we want it to be or not. Therefore debating legality does have its place in the matter.

 

But in this conversation, it does not have a place.  Because I fully understand why is illegal.  But I do not understand or agree with the morality of it. 

 

53 minutes ago, iamnoob said:

But, but......my precious lolis D:

 

That's what I was looking for, and I fully agree. We cannot always link morality to law. For example, there is this law: "It is illegal to view moose from airplanes". Sometimes laws just don't do law well xD

This is a better explanation I guess xD.

 

What do lolis have to do with this? 

[iamnoob]

3 minutes ago, Nekolover said:

What do lolis have to do with this? 

It's illegal to buy / bring in loli doujins, dakis, artwork ect in many countries. Which I so badly want to buy from Japan D:

Was just joking around with him xD getting off topic

[Nekolover]

57 minutes ago, Zakamutt said:

Legality only has its place in discussing potential consequences due to it being illegal, but then you're really arguing based on those results, not because it's legal or not. Laws may often have their origin in moral judgements, but they live a life of their own and whether something is legal or not should not reflect upon its morality.

Also hi neko, you did good. Could use a bit more being out there though like Okami did, would be more entertaining than just unrelenting fury at everything w

 

Sure but again I am asking the morality of it. Because that the reason people keep giving me more than not.    Good on what? Fury?  I don't get it. 

 

38 minutes ago, iamnoob said:

It's illegal to buy / bring in loli doujins, dakis, artwork ect in many countries. Which I so badly want to buy from Japan D:

Was just joking around with him xD getting off topic

 

Don't get why.  It just image. 

[Zakamutt]

You're good at being angry and pissing people off, which is fun in its own way, but if you added some weird assumptions about UFOs or out-there opinions like hating sex so much you would prefer for everyone to be born in artificial wombs, it would be more entertaining. Obviously this depends on what type of entertainer you want to be, but if you're funnier, the mods will like you more and you won't get banned as fast.

[Nekolover]

16 minutes ago, Zakamutt said:

You're good at being angry and pissing people off, which is fun in its own way, but if you added some weird assumptions about UFOs or out-there opinions like hating sex so much you would prefer for everyone to be born in artificial wombs, it would be more entertaining. Obviously this depends on what type of entertainer you want to be, but if you're funnier, the mods will like you more and you won't get banned as fast.

 

What?  OK first of unless I am clearly Joking I being serious.   People who get piss off can go ahead and get piss off.   Out there opinions exist because people are different and expecting everyone to agree on something automatically is childless.   I not entertainer.  I serious about this and I an OK with disagreeing with people.  Is not the end of the world.   I don't care for the mods and I already been banned before.  

[Nosebleed]

15 minutes ago, Zakamutt said:

You're good at being angry and pissing people off, which is fun in its own way, but if you added some weird assumptions about UFOs or out-there opinions like hating sex so much you would prefer for everyone to be born in artificial wombs, it would be more entertaining. Obviously this depends on what type of entertainer you want to be, but if you're funnier, the mods will like you more and you won't get banned as fast.

Indeed, I wish there were more fun replies to go through when I read reports on these threads.

Also @Nekolover I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you're not trolling here, but please understand that people disagreeing with you does not mean they're being "assholes". Every time somebody replies to your question and explains something, your reply is always "but I don't get it", which at some point starts feeling like you're trolling people, hence why people start not taking you seriously.

We've had quite a few trolls before, and some other people that were actually serious about their delusions, but if you're going to go down that route, then like @Zakamutt said, at least make some nice essays about the benefits of every single human being being born through arteficial insemination or something.

We get reports on your threads every single time, so it's getting kind of tiring by now that I felt the need to brief you on this matter. Your threads don't really break the rules since asking a question isn't wrong per se, so I don't really have much of a reason to lock them (unless people are going off the rails), but please try taking people's replies a bit more seriously. And if you're not willing to do that, then I kind of suggest you don't make the thread at all.

[sanahtlig]

Imagine if someone took one of my blog articles, changed a few words here and there, and published it as his own and sold it for a profit.  That's basically tracing in a nutshell.  It's plagiarism.  It's taking someone else's work and claiming it as your own without proper acknowledgement of the original.

Both writing and drawing are creative processes, not mechanical replication.  Every word and every line is supposed to be your's.  Simply mimicking others at a low level is not permitted, although similarities at a high level (arguments, tropes) are fine.

[Yuuko]

Maybe you will understand tracing better if it's said like this:

You take the other guy's drawing and draw your own details ON top of it.

 

Also goddamn read the comments on the article you linked. The answer is there too...

[Nekolover]

Just now, Nosebleed said:

Indeed, I wish there were more fun replies to go through when I read reports on these threads.

Also @Nekolover I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you're not trolling here, but please understand that people disagreeing with you does not mean they're being "assholes". Every time somebody replies to your question and explains something, your reply is always "but I don't get it", which at some point starts feeling like you're trolling people, hence why people start not taking you seriously.

We've had quite a few trolls before, and some other people that were actually serious about their delusions, but if you're going to go down that route, then like @Zakamutt said, at least make some nice essays about the benefits of every single human being being born through arteficial insemination or something.

We get reports on your threads every single time, so it's getting kind of tiring by now that I felt the need to brief you on this matter. Your threads don't really break the rules since asking a question isn't wrong per se, so I don't really have much of a reason to lock them (unless people are going off the rails), but please try taking people's replies a bit more seriously. And if you're not willing to do that, then I kind of suggest you don't make the thread at all.

 

I not. What do I gain from doing that? Get banned?   Also, will all do respect I haven't read the rules because half of it is common sense.   Also if you or any mod have issues with me then tell me about it. Remain quiet about it doesn't help anybody. Also, I haven't call anybody here asshole here if you notice.  I already explain why so is pointless to explain why.  Also, some of them act like everybody is supposed to agree with them on the matter.  That also get tiring for me. I not a troll so I will not behave like that. People not bothering to try really hard to explain why something is wrong is them not being able to figure out the argument that works for me.  People calling me a troll are people who can't be bothered to try with somebody of a different mindset. 

[tymmur]

I think the main problem is that @Nekolover never created anything people might steal and therefore completely lacks the awareness of what it's like to be the victim in such a case. When people create something of their own, they tend to put lots of time and love into their creations. If somebody else claims ownership, then it really hurts. On top of that, there is the financial part to it. Somebody else gets paid for what you did.

 

I once encountered a guy, who started talking and he told that he had to break into a theater to see what was inside. He thought it was ok to break the door because they asked for it by locking it in the first place. I said the idea is that you pay to get in and see what they have inside and he went "no, that will cost money. I just want to see it. I don't want to pay". Unsurprisingly he also mentioned that he used to live in a home for criminal children removed from their parents. Sometimes you encounter the strangest people when standing on a train station. Somehow @Nekolover made me think of that guy. I'm not saying nekolover breaks the law, but the train of thought seems to be similar anyway.

14 minutes ago, Nosebleed said:

We get reports on your threads every single time, so it's getting kind of tiring by now that I felt the need to brief you on this matter. Your threads don't really break the rules since asking a question isn't wrong per se, so I don't really have much of a reason to lock them (unless people are going off the rails), but please try taking people's replies a bit more seriously. And if you're not willing to do that, then I kind of suggest you don't make the thread at all.

I can't tell if that is really skillful trolling or ignorance.

[Nekolover]

9 minutes ago, sanahtlig said:

Imagine if someone took one of my blog articles, changed a few words here and there, and published it as his own and sold it for a profit.  That's basically tracing in a nutshell.  It's taking someone else's work and claiming it as your own without proper acknowledgement of the original.

 

You are going to hate me for it but I don't get it.  He not just copying the thing.  He did more to it.    

[john 'mr. customer' smith]

Fair use?

[Asonn]

In all fairness and with respect maybe you should switch to a different mindset to try to understand the arguments we make, cause saying I don't get it. Doesn't explain why you don't get it and which point you don't get. also calling other people 5 years old cause they simply don't agree or getting tired of the same reply after time after time is not really respectful. try to see it from our viewpoints. 

[Nekolover]

2 minutes ago, Kiriririri said:

Maybe you will understand tracing better if it's said like this:

You take the other guy's drawing and draw your own details ON top of it.

 

Also goddamn read the comments on the article you linked. The answer is there too...

 

I did but I am asking here.  OK that what he doing but again the art style and characters are different.   Is not just him passing a brush and pretending is new.  

[Nekolover]

2 minutes ago, tymmur said:

I think the main problem is that @Nekolover never created anything people might steal and therefore completely lacks the awareness of what it's like to be the victim in such a case. When people create something of their own, they tend to put lots of time and love into their creations. If somebody else claims ownership, then it really hurts. On top of that, there is the financial part to it. Somebody else gets paid for what you did.

 

I once encountered a guy, who started talking and he told that he had to break into a theater to see what was inside. He thought it was ok to break the door because they asked for it by locking it in the first place. I said the idea is that you pay to get in and see what they have inside and he went "no, that will cost money. I just want to see it. I don't want to pay". Unsurprisingly he also mentioned that he used to live in a home for criminal children removed from their parents. Sometimes you encounter the strangest people when standing on a train station. Somehow @Nekolover made me think of that guy. I'm not saying nekolover breaks the law, but the train of thought seems to be similar anyway.

I can't tell if that is really skillful trolling or ignorance.

 

I have never broken the law.  Also I will never do that. 

[mitchhamilton]

8 minutes ago, tymmur said:

I think the main problem is that @Nekolover never created anything people might steal and therefore completely lacks the awareness of what it's like to be the victim in such a case. When people create something of their own, they tend to put lots of time and love into their creations. If somebody else claims ownership, then it really hurts. On top of that, there is the financial part to it. Somebody else gets paid for what you did.

 

I once encountered a guy, who started talking and he told that he had to break into a theater to see what was inside. He thought it was ok to break the door because they asked for it by locking it in the first place. I said the idea is that you pay to get in and see what they have inside and he went "no, that will cost money. I just want to see it. I don't want to pay". Unsurprisingly he also mentioned that he used to live in a home for criminal children removed from their parents. Sometimes you encounter the strangest people when standing on a train station. Somehow @Nekolover made me think of that guy. I'm not saying nekolover breaks the law, but the train of thought seems to be similar anyway.

I can't tell if that is really skillful trolling or ignorance.

 

2 minutes ago, Nekolover said:

I have never broken the law.  Also I will never do that. 

completely misses the point.

[solidbatman]

[sanahtlig]

10 minutes ago, Nekolover said:

You are going to hate me for it but I don't get it.  He not just copying the thing.  He did more to it.    

I think your lack of understanding stems from not understanding the creative process, as @tymmur said.  Put effort into creating something novel.  Then watch someone repost it somewhere else, changing a few things here and there--just enough to make it seem different--without even mentioning you.  Then you'll understand.

Basically, if you're cutting corners by using someone else's work as a template, you're cheating.  Creators don't tolerate that.

[mitchhamilton]

2 minutes ago, solidbatman said:

cant give a like right now but wish i could. i love eddie murphy.

[Nekolover]

2 minutes ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said:

Fair use?

Judging from their responses I guess no.

1 minute ago, Asonn said:

In all fairness and with respect maybe you should switch to a different mindset to try to understand the arguments we make, cause saying I don't get it. Doesn't explain why you don't get it and which point you don't get. also calling other people 5 years old cause they simply don't agree or getting tired of the same reply after time after time is not really respectful. try to see it from our viewpoints. 

 

Don't make me laugh.  If you act like a 5 year old and give me an answer because is the law. I going to call you that and deserving it so. Especially if I am being call a troll. Because of different views.  For me to be able to view it from that viewpoint it will require me to understand some of it.  I don't.

[Nosebleed]

Here @Nekolover I'll give you another case that happened in Japan so you can understand the mindset of artists over there. No Game No Life is quite unique because it's still being published. Usually you wouldn't get away with this.

The manga Prism was canceled due to tracing.

What happened was that the artist literally took actual photos and drew on top of them in order to make his illustrations, like so:

Spoiler

 

 

When a publisher sees this, it's telling them that their staff is literally drawing over someone else's work without crediting it, and that could breach copyright laws, which spells bad business for the company. If you didn't know, drawings and photos are copyright protected, and if you trace over someone else's photo, that could mean a breach in said protection, which is why people don't do it.

As far as the morality of it goes. If you're not asking for permission and/or not crediting the original source, it essentially equates to you saying you drew something you did not. For example, I could make a painting of a certain scenery, but I can't say I created that scenery myself, that would be decieving people, and that's why it's wrong.

I don't know if you've ever been to college, but in college it is illegal to write someone else's words in your essays without crediting them. If you're found out doing so, the college will literally call the police on you and you will get kicked out of college, no joke. Similarly, if you check any book on any kind of study, there's ALWAYS a list of sources at the end, because people can't claim to have come up with everything just like that.

Tracing is exactly the same thing: doing something yourself but using someone else's works as a foundation without any form of credit. That's why most people think it's wrong.

[Nekolover]

3 minutes ago, mitchhamilton said:

 

completely misses the point.

 

Which is? That I am being compared to a criminal? 

3 minutes ago, solidbatman said:

 

You are not helping. 

1 minute ago, sanahtlig said:

I think your lack of understanding stems from not understanding the creative process, as @tymmur said.  Put effort into creating something novel.  Then watch someone repost it somewhere else, changing a few things here and there--just enough to make it seem different--without even mentioning you.  Then you'll understand.

Basically, if you're cutting corners by using someone else's work as a template, you're cheating.  Creators don't tolerate that.

 

First that rude. First I try drawing but fuck me.   Also I made necklaces in the past. Complicated ones.  I also I am trying to write two novels even with my shity grammar.   I understand what you are saying here but I don't agree with that applying to him.  His art style and the designs are too different.    Especially the characters  designs.

[Nekolover]

1 minute ago, Nosebleed said:

Here @Nekolover I'll give you another case that happened in Japan so you can understand the mindset of artists over there. No Game No Life is quite unique because it's still being published. Usually you wouldn't get away with this.

The manga Prism was canceled due to tracing.

What happened was that the artist literally took actual photos and drew on top of them in order to make his illustrations, like so:

  Hide contents

 

 

 

When a publisher sees this, it's telling them that their staff is literally drawing over someone else's work without crediting it, and that could breach copyright laws, which spells bad business for the company. If you didn't know, drawings and photos are copyright protected, and if you trace over someone else's photo, that could mean a breach in said protection, which is why people don't do it.

As far as the morality of it goes. If you're not asking for permission and/or not crediting the original source, it essentially equates to you saying you drew something you did not. For example, I could make a painting of a certain scenery, but I can't say I created that scenery myself, that would be decieving people, and that's why it's wrong.

I don't know if you've ever been to college, but in college it is illegal to write someone else's words in your essays without crediting them. If you're found out doing so, the college will literally call the police on you and you will get kicked out of college, no joke. Similarly, if you check any book on any kind of study, there's ALWAYS a list of sources at the end, because people can't claim to have come up with everything just like that.

Tracing is exactly the same thing: doing something yourself but using someone else's works as a foundation without any form of credit. That's why most people think it's wrong.

 

This is a pain.   I understand the below part of what you are saying.  The above part is where I want to ask something.   You are telling me that something like eating ice cream while smiling is copyright? That kissing on the bathroom in that position that I have seen countless times on porn is copyright?  Yes I do see the tracing but that something that is normal for people to do. So is copyright because somebody took some photos or made some drawing before anybody else?