Little Busters! FuwaReview Discussion

[Eclipsed]

Taiga's not trying to argue for bats to like LB! though, just pointing out that bats tastes simply weren't compatible with LB! which is why his review is so negative, and instead of offputting all potential readers of the review from reading LB! he should put a disclaimer like 'if you like boring loveable & endearing characters, monotonous drama enjoyable comedic common route & wtf Mio has a twin?! route, and a cop-out happy ending, this is the VN for you'

[Mr Poltroon]

Yet  its more biased to base your review of popularity and others reviews.

Which is why I never said anything about him basing his review on popularity. I've asked for one of two things:

-> Another review by someone that doesn't hate the game.

-> That there be more reviews by Batman so people get to know the reviewers tastes and biases better.

(I also said that he could try to make it more objective, but I think that's impossible)

 

I completely disagree that you should withhold your opinion because of the popular opinion.

 

Just because its popular and alot of others like it doesnt mean the reviewer have to like it.

All reviews is a personal opinion. now bats happen to be part of fuwareviews = its an official fuwareview whenever you disagree or not.

Agreed, the reviewer does not need to like it, nor have I said he should.

This review is his personal opinion, he has the right to have it, yada yada.

I just don't think solidbatman is the appropriate fuwareviews person to review this (for obvious reasons ) when he fails to properly showcase both sides of the VN.

[Katatsumuri]

But shouldn't it be obvious to many people that reviews are in and themselves subjective? But sure, one option could be be to just have a banner on the page reading: "All reviews are based on the reviewers opinion, as they *must* be to be reviews, otherwise they are just descriptions. If you have a differing opinion and obviously knows better than a particular reviewer; then don't waste your energy writing a TL:DR complaint, instead join Fuwareviews and use that energy to make reviews of your own."

[Mr Poltroon]

But shouldn't it be obvious to many people that reviews are in and themselves subjective? But sure, one option could be be to just have a banner on the page reading: "All reviews are based on the reviewers opinion, as they *must* be to be reviews, otherwise they are just descriptions. If you have a differing opinion and obviously knows better than a particular reviewer; then don't waste your energy writing a TL:DR complaint, instead join Fuwareviews and use that energy to make a review of your own."

But... But... All my ?

 

Well, yeah, that's the obvious response, and what I mean when I said SolidBatman needs to get his arse in gear and write more reviews. Otherwise people reading our review won't quite know he has piss-poor taste a unique taste in VN's

[Katatsumuri]

But... But... All my ?

 

Just take it and dump that vile, toxin in the nearest harbor. Show the world that you have the FREEDOM and energy to make good reviews. Someone, somewhere Probably  believes in you.

[Lewycool]

 

Everyone in this thread..

[solidbatman]

I still don't see how I failed to showcase both sides of the VN? Want me to lie about it and say, "Wow these plot holes I just fell into sure are great!" or "Wonderful! I loved this 1 hour scene about making pancakes!" or even, "Top kek ending lads! I really liked how the emotional strain is completely gone and was pointless!"

 

If you are reading a review to reaffirm your stance on a VN, you are doing it wrong. Your stance on a VN should stand on its own, and not be swayed by general public opinion.

 

On my fucking grave stone, it will be written, "Little Busters is a 4/10"

 

And underneath it, "Sakura Spirit was more enjoyable."

[Mr Poltroon]

so..your basicly saying that someone that like the game should review it.

I disliked LB alot myself,.. So i guess my piss-poor taste agrees with bats.

maybe join and write something yourself?

 

 

but that we have different opinions on most things isnt something new.

Not game. Genre. That's the fundamental difference.

 

Since you brought up Call of Duty I'll use that as an example. Imagine that a guy that only plays first person shooters goes and reviews a puzzle game. What do you think will happen? And the opposite holds true. The puzzle player probably won't like Call of Duty all that much either.

Fundamentally, I think these guys would make for poor reviewers. A Professor Layton fan should review puzzle games while a Medal of Honour fan should review Call of Duty... that sort of thing.

 

Bah, that one's in poor taste. (just jk i'm sorry, bats best taste of all)

 

As if I'd go to the trouble of writing a review after getting this excited about it. All I'm gonna do is complain and stand back and watch like the wretched being I am.

[OriginalRen]

TeamSpeak is open for those of you who want to discuss Little Busters.

 

ts3.fuwanovel.net

[Eclipsed]

Tiag's aiming for the 'reviewers should review the genres they like' because in essence having that type of compatibility with a genre means one would be more able to point out the strengths and flaws of how that genre played out in an individual piece than a reviewer who simply was incompatible with a genre in the first place.

 

Exemplified by the Little Busters vs Sakura Spirit gravestone comment

 

But ya, "just join the team and make your own review then Tigo" 

[Katatsumuri]

A Professor Layton fan should review puzzle games while a Medal of Honour fan should review Call of Duty... that sort of thing.

 

Doing that will just result in yes-men, because it would still be similar to a LB fan reviewing LB. Sure, the premise sounds different when it comes to genre. But it's still similar.

Besides, that kind of logic can still be summed up as "People who don't like it the genre, shouldn't review it", and further arguing about that point is kinda redundant.

 

All in all, don't treat a review as an all powerful gospel written a deity somewhere. It's just some opinions which are more formally presented than your average bunch of opinions.

 

Edit:

 

 

 

Tiag's aiming for the 'reviewers should review the genres they like' because in essence having that type of compatibility with a genre means one would be more able to point out the strengths and flaws of how that genre played out in an individual piece than a reviewer who simply was incompatible with a genre in the first place.

 

Shouldn't it be "Reviewers should review the genres they like play a lot of"? While liking a genre is somewhat correlated to playing a lot of games of that particular genre, it doesn't that the person is a master in pointing out stuff in it. In actuality, I tend to find the opposite of liking a genre to be the best starting ground for reviewing something.

 

Why are we even having this discussion about a more formal presentation of opinions review?

[solidbatman]

When you lock yourself onto one genre, and like it over the other, you simply can't be objective. That is a terrible idea. Whats the point of doing reviews if you only stick to what you like? Am I qualified to write this review? Just as qualified as any of you are. 

 

I think LB! is a bad VN. I'm also just some guy who reads VNs. 

[Chuee]

Except Riki still had to have answers spoon fed to him. Even in Refrain, Kyousuke still had to give him hints on what to do. He had a whole game to grow as a protagonist, and even I felt it took too long. Rin herself finally realizes what it is she has been seeking in the final scene of the game when Komari says goodbye on the roof. It took her that long to finally stand up for herself and be independent? The whole game was built on making her become independent!

 

Riki and Rin were too weak to handle the death of their friends, and instead of letting them grow as characters and finally face the real world, they get the happy ending and everyone makes it out in the end because Riki refuses to let his friends die. Essentially, everything the girls and the 3 guys were attempting to do by creating another world for them to live in is null. At the end of the day, Kyousuke goes right back to leading the crew, and Riki and Rin don't give a rat's ass about what happened. It feels pointless.

 

Even if he was given hints, everything was still done entirely by Riki and Rin. Rin as a character grew throughout the game, over time, which is a big point. Change isn't something you can just throw on people, evident of how when Kyousuke suddenly threw in an environment where she knew nobody, she fell apart. It took time for her to come out of her shell, and be less shy, which is why introducing the female members ended up having an effect on her. By introducing these people who wanted to be her friends, she could gradually begin to open up towards them, gradually getting her used to people other than the other 4 original members. Also, it's rather silly to say they couldn't handle the death of their friends. In the first place, even if things had gone entirely as Kyousuke planned, Riki and Rin had become independent, and the rest of the little busters had died, that incident still would've stayed with them for the rest of their lives. Yes, the impacts might not have been as severe, but something as awful as having some of your best friends die in a bus crash right before your eyes isn't something that you can just simply get over. So basically, even though Kyousuke created that world for them to be able to handle their deaths, and the little busters ended up living, it doesn't nullify his efforts. Why? Because by making Riki into a stronger more proactive person, he in turn saved his own life along with the lives of the other little busters who were 'supposed' to die. Like I said, there's a good reason the end where they all die involves him accepting that they're already and not doing anything. Making Riki into a stronger person allowed him to hold onto his friends, rather than being 'weak' and just accepting things for how they are. Pretty much, all of this is basically a metaphor for friendship, and how most people essentially lose a lot of their old friends from school once they go off into the real world (Kyousuke wanted to make Riki and Rin independent in the beginning because he believed they wouldn't have time for each other once he left the school and got a job).

 

[Eclipsed]

Does bats have a review for a VN similar to LB?

 

If not, what are some quick TL;DR thoughts on like Hoshizora no Memoria, etc. and other Key works

[LinovaA]

 "Top kek ending lads! I really liked how the emotional strain is completely gone and was pointless!"

 

If you are reading a review to reaffirm your stance on a VN, you are doing it wrong. Your stance on a VN should stand on its own, and not be swayed by general public opinion.

 

I agree with both of these. Seriously, fuck the ending. He says as he looks at how he has Clannad rated 10 on VNDB

 

I read reviews to see how someone's opinion differs from my own, not to reaffirm it. My opinion is my opinion, and nobody else's is going to change it.

 

Personally, I feel Little Busters was decent up until the ending, but again, I read this back when I was fairly new to VNs, so if I were to reread it now I would probably be a lot harsher in my judging according to my standards.

[Down]

PSA: every time someone uses the argument "if you criticize something you should just do it better yourself" I will kill their cat. Or dog. And take a dump on their walls.

 

Also Tiago I didn't read all those gigantonormous walls of text but I think you're mistaken on the purpose of a review. Until someone proves me objectivity is a thing, I'll consider that the goal of a review is to bring up analysis/facts about a work and then proceed to emit an opinion about it - preferably an informed opinion. If batman says something like "the common route is very long with lots of repetitions" it's a fact. Up to him to like it or not but the reader has been informed that this is part of the game, and if he's a critical reader he'll figure out whether it would bother him or not. As for the 'informed opinion' part, I don't see any contextual information that could make the statement "I don't like the long and repetitive common route of LB!" a reading error or could explain how it's not really an issue at all.

[Nosebleed]

I've known batman's opinion of LB ever since he did that 24 hour livestream so this review didn't really shock me much and was a rather fun read, I'm surprised by how controversial things can actually get on duh interwebz when you criticize such a popular game.

Personally I have no problems with batman disliking the game and the way he described all the flaws was as objective as possible, leaving most of the decision up to the reader, there's nothing wrong with disliking LB.

 

Hell, there's nothing wrong with enjoying things you rate 3/10 or 4/10 or even lower (Looking at you Ikikoi), I've done that before and it doesn't deter my enjoyment of the game in the slighest.

 

I think the lesson we can take from this review is that solidbatman is the salt god.

[OriginalRen]

Even if he was given hints, everything was still done entirely by Riki and Rin. Rin as a character grew throughout the game, over time, which is a big point. Change isn't something you can just throw on people, evident of how when Kyousuke suddenly threw in an environment where she knew nobody, she fell apart. It took time for her to come out of her shell, and be less shy, which is why introducing the female members ended up having an effect on her. By introducing these people who wanted to be her friends, she could gradually begin to open up towards them, gradually getting her used to people other than the other 4 original members. Also, it's rather silly to say they couldn't handle the death of their friends. In the first place, even if things had gone entirely as Kyousuke planned, Riki and Rin had become independent, and the rest of the little busters had died, that incident still would've stayed with them for the rest of their lives. Yes, the impacts might not have been as severe, but something as awful as having some of your best friends die in a bus crash right before your eyes isn't something that you can just simply get over. So basically, even though Kyousuke created that world for them to be able to handle their deaths, and the little busters ended up living, it doesn't nullify his efforts. Why? Because by making Riki into a stronger more proactive person, he in turn saved his own life along with the lives of the other little busters who were 'supposed' to die. Like I said, there's a good reason the end where they all die involves him accepting that they're already and not doing anything. Making Riki into a stronger person allowed him to hold onto his friends, rather than being 'weak' and just accepting things for how they are. Pretty much, all of this is basically a metaphor for friendship, and how most people essentially lose a lot of their old friends from school once they go off into the real world (Kyousuke wanted to make Riki and Rin independent in the beginning because he believed they wouldn't have time for each other once he left the school and got a job).

 

 

The problem with that is that the game didn't expand on that notion. It didn't show Riki being independent at all, it just showed all of the crew hanging out at the beach again. You say he became more proactive, yet the game didn't even give me any evidence of this after the fact. Riki just wanted to save his friends, essentially meaning he got to play the role of God and change fate. It might just be the fact that I hate when characters get to cheat fate and life's unfair results, but I just didn't feel the character's sense of growth.

 

As a final note, you aren't weak if you accept the results of life. Seeing that this game is from Japan, Japanese people themselves often live by the phrase 仕方がない, meaning it can't be helped. Riki and Rin refused to accept the role of fate/God in this case, and that I feel is essentially ruining the whole point of them growing stronger.

[solidbatman]

Does bats have a review for a VN similar to LB?

 

If not, what are some quick TL;DR thoughts on like Hoshizora no Memoria, etc. and other Key works

I love Clannad, but it has some flaws too. What sets Clannad apart in my opinion is that the growth of Nagisa, is far more noticeable, and just better done than Rin. I dislike how After Story ended, but I like it more than how LitBus ended because there at least was some sort of reasonable, in my eyes, explanation and it did not feel like a total ass pull. Clannad's routes also were, for the most part, better done, but a few routes did fall into what I call the "forced drama" category (Kotomi's being the biggest example of this to me). I'll get into more detail when I do the review, but I think Clannad is better. 

[Eclipsed]

Hell, there's nothing wrong with enjoying things you rate 3/10 or 4/10 or even lower (Looking at you Ikikoi), I've done that before and it doesn't deter my enjoyment of the game in the slighest.

This.

 

There are two ways people tend to 'rate' things: be it an aggregate score of the individual components of a piece of work, or simply how much they enjoyed a piece of work.

 

All of my ratings are weighted 90% for how much I enjoyed a VN rather than an objective analysis of the quality of story, characters, etc. (though naturally enjoyment can be affected by the qualitative aspects of story, music, art... but I don't think I'll ever enjoy something that I happen rate a 3 or a 4, since that means I didn't enjoy it at all. If that makes sense  )

 

Most of the people who can agree with Bats's review but not the score have difficulty in summing up how bland characters, extremely lengthy and monotonous routes, and a forced happy ending leads to a 4 for bad and are thus trying to call him out on genre incompatibility or bias towards Key and whatnot

 

but he loves Clannad, so HAH!

 

~~

Personally, my history with LB! is as follows:

• Was my 2nd VN ever.
• (DUN DUN DUN) only read Rin1, Haruka, Rin2, and Refrain
• Didn't think Refrain was an outright disaster, but did feel completely robbed for the ending
• Rated 8.5/10 for 'between good and great enjoyability' (7 is my 'average/passable', 'Murican academic grade scale ftw  )
• If I had to read Mio, Komari, Kurugaya, and Kud's routes, Enjoyment would've been nerfed to like a 6. For below average enjoyment.

[Mr Poltroon]

I still don't see how I failed to showcase both sides of the VN? Want me to lie about it and say, "Wow these plot holes I just fell into sure are great!" or "Wonderful! I loved this 1 hour scene about making pancakes!" or even, "Top kek ending lads! I really liked how the emotional strain is completely gone and was pointless!"

 

If you are reading a review to reaffirm your stance on a VN, you are doing it wrong. Your stance on a VN should stand on its own, and not be swayed by general public opinion.

 

On my fucking grave stone, it will be written, "Little Busters is a 4/10"

 

And underneath it, "Sakura Spirit was more enjoyable."

Too bad can't like. Reached my quota for the day.

 

I've got nothing to add at this point. Your review clearly conflicts with popular opinion.

Objectively, you're probably right, the VN probably isn't all that good.

But for some strange reason a lot of people liked it, and I'm not seeing anything that shows why in this review. Imagining I hadn't played Little Busters! before, there'd be absolutely no reason for me to play it after reading this review.

 

But I wouldn't wish on anyone for them to lose the opportunity to experience the enjoyment I experienced while playing Little Busters!

 

I'm probably just interpreting reviews wrong.

Maybe they aren't that objective holy grail showing good things about this VN, bad things about this VN and facts and info that could get you interested in this VN; that I thought they were.

 

---

 

Alright, time to go for the final round:

The review complains about the long common route and that's one of the causes of complaint. Here we're told the moments are enjoyable by themselves but you found them monotonous after a while, fine.

The review complains about the cop out end. It says everything is completely and totally ruined, pretty much. This is because the reviewer was hoping for a different, emotional sort of end instead of the usual cop out (the kind that's done in many other VN's to appeal to the dastardly otaku pests), and the reviewer values endings highly.  I think these two facts should have been mentioned in the review.

The review says the emotional scenes feel cheesy, forced and badly written. This is the main fault with the review because it's highly subjective, but doesn't come across as such. The reviewer states this as fact. Yet many people found them to be highly emotional scenes the first time they played. I don't think this could really be helped because this is the reviewer's opinion.

But herein lies my point. Why is the guy to whom the VN's main appeal didn't manage to reach reviewing it?

This is a hit or miss VN, let there be no doubt. But it doesn't come across as such during the review, nor do we have any such mention anywhere. The more emotional types will probably love it. If you like romance, or long comedy slice of life, you'll probably like it. This review doesn't really convey that, but then again, should it? Am I expecting too much out of Fuwareviews?

And should the people in the 'miss' category be reviewing it? Is it fair for the VN when it probably wasn't even targeting those guys?

 

 

 

...I'm calmer now, so I'll probably leave it at this. In the end it's not like it's even Batman's fault that I don't like this review.

 

Edit: A bunch of replies came, and I can't not take them into account.

 

Doing that will just result in yes-men, because it would still be similar to a LB fan reviewing LB. Sure, the premise sounds different when it comes to genre. But it's still similar.

Besides, that kind of logic can still be summed up as "People who don't like it the genre, shouldn't review it", and further arguing about that point is kinda redundant.

 

All in all, don't treat a review as an all powerful gospel written a deity somewhere. It's just some opinions which are more formally presented than your average bunch of opinions.

 

Edit:

 

 

Shouldn't it be "Reviewers should review the genres they like play a lot of"? While liking a genre is somewhat correlated to playing a lot of games of that particular genre, it doesn't that the person is a master in pointing out stuff in it. In actuality, I tend to find the opposite of liking a genre to be the best starting ground for reviewing something.

 

Why are we even having this discussion about a more formal presentation of opinions review?

So you're going to play Little Busters! because you hate long common routes, hate slice of life, hate romance and hate comedy? So you're looking for a review from a guy that also hates all that stuff and want to see if Little Busters is a good game for the guys that hate that kind of thing?

This review is useless if I actually like the genre, If you ask me

 

I realised that earlier when writing my post. I'm treating this review as an omnipotent thing which it isn't and it can't be.

 

@Edit

And interesting take, and I can't really disagree with it.

Of course, if you don't like the genre there's no way in hell you'll know what genre lovers are looking for in the genre or what's a major turn off.

 

Before delving into a review, you should see if the game appeals to your genre's. Then, you should look for a review of a trusted person or someone who's an expert at that sort of genre.

Batman can't be trusted because we've hardly got any pool of reviews to compare this one to.

Batman seemingly isn't an expert at the genre because he's got such a radical opinion on it, but he might be, we don't know because he's got no reviews out

 

When you lock yourself onto one genre, and like it over the other, you simply can't be objective. That is a terrible idea. Whats the point of doing reviews if you only stick to what you like? Am I qualified to write this review? Just as qualified as any of you are. 

 

I think LB! is a bad VN. I'm also just some guy who reads VNs. 

I'd say that's the best way to tell when something is truly bad.

"I love romance, drama and slice of life, but I hate Little Busters!" - that's when you know something really went wrong.

 

I'm also starting to think there's a difference between how enjoyable something is and how good something is. It doesn't need to be good for it to be enjoyable, and the genre lovers are the ones who can tell what's enjoyable better than those who don't love a genre.

 

PSA: every time someone uses the argument "if you criticize something you should just do it better yourself" I will kill their cat. Or dog. And take a dump on their walls.

 

Also Tiago I didn't read all those gigantonormous walls of text but I think you're mistaken on the purpose of a review. Until someone proves me objectivity is a thing, I'll consider that the goal of a review is to bring up analysis/facts about a work and then proceed to emit an opinion about it - preferably an informed opinion. If batman says something like "the common route is very long with lots of repetitions" it's a fact. Up to him to like it or not but the reader has been informed that this is part of the game, and if he's a critical reader he'll figure out whether it would bother him or not. As for the 'informed opinion' part, I don't see any contextual information that could make the statement "I don't like the long and repetitive common route of LB!" a reading error or could explain how it's not really an issue at all.

Yeah, I'm probably expecting too much out of a review. So I won't read your wall of text now.

I also doubt he can bring up something he didn't experience, like enjoyment or pulls of the heartstrings.

 

Personally I have no problems with batman disliking the game and the way he described all the flaws was as objective as possible, leaving most of the decision up to the reader, there's nothing wrong with disliking LB.

 

Hell, there's nothing wrong with enjoying things you rate 3/10 or 4/10 or even lower (Looking at you Ikikoi), I've done that before and it doesn't deter my enjoyment of the game in the slighest.

If you, who enjoyed the game, can't tell what's so good about it, there's a sign that something else is at work here. And that something else certainly isn't in that review.

I imagine people who could have enjoyed the game a lot might be turned off because of the review and how "objectively" bad it is.

And that's a darn shame.

 

 

This.

 

There are two ways people tend to 'rate' things: be it an aggregate score of the individual components of a piece of work, or simply how much they enjoyed a piece of work.

 

All of my ratings are weighted 90% for how much I enjoyed a VN rather than an objective analysis of the quality of story, characters, etc. (though naturally enjoyment can be affected by the qualitative aspects of story, music, art... but I don't think I'll ever enjoy something that I happen rate a 3 or a 4, since that means I didn't enjoy it at all. If that makes sense  )

 

Most of the people who can agree with Bats's review but not the score have difficulty in summing up how bland characters, extremely lengthy and monotonous routes, and a forced happy ending leads to a 4 for bad and are thus trying to call him out on genre incompatibility or bias towards Key and whatnot

 

but he loves Clannad, so HAH!

I rate things at how much I enjoy them, and that's it. No way I'd call Wanko to Kurasou a good VN, but it's getting a 9 from me.

 

Wouldn't that just solve all my complaints?

[Eclipsed]

I'm also starting to think there's a difference between how enjoyable something is and how good something is. It doesn't need to be good for it to be enjoyable, and the genre lovers are the ones who can tell what's enjoyable better than those who don't love a genre.

 

I rate things at how much I enjoy them, and that's it. No way I'd call Wanko to Kurasou a good VN, but it's getting a 9 from me.

And there we go, now apply that to Little Busters. No way is it a good VN, but it's getting a 9 from you. 

 

Now leave bats's 4 for bad alone      

[Mr Poltroon]

And there we go, now apply that to Little Busters. No way is it a good VN, but it's getting a 9 from you. 

 

Now leave bats's 4 for bad alone      

Nope. He didn't enjoy it, so he's obviously got the wrong outlook for reviewing it :salt:

 

But I'll rest my case anyways

[littleshogun]

Interesting review. But you may scare some people who played Little Busters, although I could see some point in your review though. For Kyousuke, why not give him more screen time? He is the true hero in Little Busters lol.

Moving forward, to be honest it's quite painful to read tiago's rebuttal to your review if only it's too long and have too much salt (Too much salt could cause hypertense), but I personally thinking you quite trolled for the ending. In fact if you dislike forced happy end, you could make that bad ending of Refrain as the true end and treat happy end as fanfiction, I suppose. Hell, even Kyousuke asked you if it's enough or not, then you could actually said that's enough. Although it's quite ironic that you need to suffer forced happy ending (To OP obviously) in order to realize that the game gave your option to move forward with current condition, I supposed. For score, you could actually just give it 6. You know just to make it less controversial, but if that's your opinion that's okay. After all as of 11th popular VN and 9th best VN in VNDB (For now), there is bound to be another people who didn't agree with that. Or as people said overrated.

And here I will make more nice conclusion for your review. This VN actually had many good point, but beware of boring and long common route. The routes may hit or miss, but Refrain is good. If you didn't like forced happy end, just answer enough in the end of Refrain (Hey some VN player bound to use walkthrough from Fuwanovel anyway). No, I will not said to change your opinion, but just give my opinion about your review.

That's all from me and sorry if you feeling offended.

Edited July 28, 2017 by littleshogun

[CeruleanGamer]

This is like an anti IGN review. You grilled the game badly, hahaha