MoeNovel announcing something Monday 17/11

[メルP]

This is what I like to call "the otaku translator/editor mindset."

This is what I call a negative bias. Anyway, most VNs made for otaku and such, so how exactly this is bad to be translated appropriately?

 

If any English speaker used honorifics when speaking, they would get made fun of on the spot.

Last time I checked though, characters were Japanese, not English speakers. No one asks you to talk the same way at your home.

 

If you want to translate into English, don't use a honorific, otherwise you sound like you don't know what language you want to speak in;

You talk like a some kind of purist here. Yes, this may be not a pure English, so what? It is pretty normal for any language to incorporate foreign stuff for which it doesn't have proper alternative. Look, not only English, but Japanese itself. How many VNs actually use pure Japanese? In some VNs there are tons of examples where they use foreign stuff simply because it sounds cool. I don't see why originals can but translations can not.

[OriginalRen]

This is what I call a negative bias. Anyway, most VNs made for otaku and such, so how exactly this is bad to be translated appropriately?

 

Last time I checked though, characters were Japanese, not English speakers. No one asks you to talk the same way at your home.

 

You talk like a some kind of purist here. Yes, this may be not a pure English, so what? It is pretty normal for any language to incorporate foreign stuff for which it doesn't have proper alternative. Look, not only English, but Japanese itself. How many VNs actually use pure Japanese? In some VNs there are tons of examples where they use foreign stuff simply because it sounds cool. I don't see why originals can but translations can not.

 

The point I made was that changing that sentence (as well as others) is pointless; editors don't need to correct every single sentence in a translation.

[メルP]

editors don't need to correct every single sentence in a translation.

I agree with this, assuming translator did a good job to begin with. Which is not the case with Konosora.

If original TL is shitty and we don't have resources to re-translate it from scratch, it is only natural to edit it as extensively as possible.

[Pabloc]

The point I made was that changing that sentence (as well as others) is pointless; editors don't need to correct every single sentence in a translation.

So you're basically saying that re-translating completely screwed up, out-of-context BS into something actually sensible is pointless? Did you even read those examples?

 

Also, you say that people shouldn't criticize translators at all, but then you go ahead and do that yourself (while utterly missing the point to boot). Double standards? Also, you say that adding a honorific somehow made the line worse (disregarding corrected translation), but for some reason you weren't complaining that MoeNovel was using honorifics as well, only inconsistently. Double standards, again? Could you please stop contradicting yourself already?

 

If original TL is shitty and we don't have resources to re-translate it from scratch, it is only natural to edit it as extensively as possible.

When the original is as bad as IMHHW, such editing would be nothing but a huge waste of time and resources. It's like applying makeup to a rotting corpse - sure it looks better, but it's still dead. And kinda stinks. A lot.

Solid TLC bordering on re-translation is the only approach that isn't futile. Probably.

[メルP]

When the original is as bad as IMHHW, such editing would be nothing but a huge waste of time and resources. It's like applying makeup to a rotting corpse - sure it looks better, but it's still dead. And kinda stinks. A lot.

Solid TLC bordering on re-translation is the only approach that isn't futile. Probably.

Ahh, well, actually by "Extensive editing" I meant something closer to your "TLC bordering on re-translation". I'm not really sure about the real scales discussed here. I ended up skipping through IMHHW cause all of that drama was too stupid and artificial for me.

For me, there is no clear margin between Editing and TLC and the quality of the actual TL make this margin more vague

(Edit: unless the editor sees Japanese for the 1st time in his life, then he's a 100% editor of course, albeit not a very good one)

[Blizzard884]

Can someone tell me what moenovel announced?

[メルP]

Can someone tell me what moenovel announced?

IMHHW on steam. Nothing interesting. People already moved on to discuss their crappy TL, again ^^

[Mephisto]

Uh, this turned in to something weird pretty fast. I think the writing in kono oozora was pretty decent, but the subject was just rather boring (except when Amane started going off about planes and science, I learned Bernoulli's theorem in regards to aircraft from that shit), so I ended up dropping the game. It's definitely one of their better titles, so I wouldn't be surprised at them wanting to advertise it/get it out there. 

 

I haven't played through any of the english version to compare the translation, but based on excerpts I've seen, whoever was translating the game either didn't understand english at a basic level, or didn't understand japanese at a basic level. It's not really something nitpicky such as "oh my god why the fuck would you use a word like bower when nobody knows what the hell that is", but more of a like "okay we're going to transliterate this text instead of reading the entire sentence and reconstructing it in english, having inverted sentence structures and implied subjects won't affect us at all!".

[Zakamutt]

"oh my god why the fuck would you use a word like bower when nobody knows what the hell that is"

Dat reference.

[Decay]

The point I made was that changing that sentence (as well as others) is pointless; editors don't need to correct every single sentence in a translation.

[OriginalRen]

So you're basically saying that re-translating completely screwed up, out-of-context BS into something actually sensible is pointless? Did you even read those examples?

 

Also, you say that people shouldn't criticize translators at all, but then you go ahead and do that yourself (while utterly missing the point to boot). Double standards? Also, you say that adding a honorific somehow made the line worse (disregarding corrected translation), but for some reason you weren't complaining that MoeNovel was using honorifics as well, only inconsistently. Double standards, again? Could you please stop contradicting yourself already?

 

When the original is as bad as IMHHW, such editing would be nothing but a huge waste of time and resources. It's like applying makeup to a rotting corpse - sure it looks better, but it's still dead. And kinda stinks. A lot.

Solid TLC bordering on re-translation is the only approach that isn't futile. Probably.

Editors actually do need to and should correct every incorrect sentence in a translation, and likewise, TLCers should correct every inaccurately translated line. Why wouldn't they? 

 

I think you're trying to say that editors shouldn't attempt to fix what isn't broken, and shouldn't do more than necessary which is true to an extent, but the example you picked is one where the line actually did require correction.

 

First of all, that sentence I picked did not need correction, and yes that is the point I am arguing. No, editors don't need to edit every single line just because it isn't in your style. I know plenty of editors that literally "take the translator's work" and edit every line because they want it to all of a sudden become "their work." Also, where does your basis for incorrect lines even come from? Because you, the editor, decide it isn't to your liking you have a right to change it as you see fit?

 

In the examples Pabloc listed you literally change lines for no reason. Some require tweaking, I agree with that. Still, you try to justify doing what you do, but in the end it's just personal taste and going over the top for something that can be kept the way it is. This is the reason I fucking hate editors. You think because you know some English you have this entitlement to correct everything and make a flawless product, when in reality a lot of sentences are fine the way they are. Are all sentences decent? Of course not, but most of the time they are fine the way they are given the context.

 

Anyways, I'm done commenting on this.

[Decay]

If you actually deconstruct the two lines, they mean two very different things. One implied that Minase made a vocal claim that they were dating Habane, and the other did not. And in the original Japanese text, that implication was never made, so why make it in the English text? That's literally changing the story. This may not be important to you, but getting lots of little things like that wrong is what makes a translation confusing to read, as the story will start contradicting itself. By making sure the translation doesn't change the story, you avoid confusing the reader, and that's pretty important in my book.

[zoom909]

Just looked at sample #1...the 1st line about the dating is innocuous compared to what follows.

It looks like they ran it through google translate and then tried to correct it by hand.

Because most of the errors hinge on mistaken interpretation of homophones like "tte", "nanda", "iesu", etc.--things that sound the same but have different meanings depending on the surrounding words, which are exactly the type of thing that computers have trouble with.

 

EDIT:  Below, as an experiment, I did exactly that.

 

Classmate: "Minase, are you really dating Hibane-san!?"
Aoi: "I'm suddenly starting from first "Hisashiburi" or "Genki?"
Classmate: "The answer to the question should be from you!"
Aoi: "It's...Jesus."

Edited November 21, 2014 by zoom909

[Zenophilious]

So...let me get this straight.  They're just releasing their crappy English translation on Steam, with little to no improvements?  Why?  Why, MoeNovel, why must you do this to us?  At least try to fix your mistakes.

 

IMHHW on steam. Nothing interesting. People already moved on to discuss their crappy TL, again ^^

Isn't that pretty much what they're known for?

[Blizzard884]

IMHHW on steam. Nothing interesting. People already moved on to discuss their crappy TL, again  

Is that it? Really?  OMG i was expecting at least fandisc or something. Well, thanks for info anyway.

[Eclipsed]

Is that it? Really?  OMG i was expecting at least fandisc or something. Well, thanks for info anyway.

Yeah. A Steam release of something they already released a year ago was definitely not what I expected their announcement to be.

At this rate, probably next year's announcement will be like a PSP port for KonoSora. And then finally, the year after that, maybe, just maybe (if the company's still even alive by that time) they'll begin plans to localize the KonoSora fandiscs :D

 

[Decay]

They could have done something actually interesting and announced they were planning on porting over the upcoming PS3/Vita version's content and using that as the basis for their all-ages release, and not their self-made hackjob.

 

You know, I really have to wonder why Pulltop bothered establishing Moenovel instead of going to someone else. Moenovel's mission statement is that they wish to provide inspirational and bittersweet games for all people. They want to be the Lifetime (american TV network) of visual novels. But Pulltop had exactly one game that can possibly fit that mold, Konosora, and that's only after they removed a ton of content. Nothing else in Pulltop's catalog can even come close to offering that kind of experience. So do they not have a gameplan from here on out, beyond simply milking IMHHW for all its worth? I think someone asked this earlier, and I don't think the corporate structure at Will allows them to freely tap into the entire catalog, there would still be licensing nonsense involved. And I don't think there are many Will games that would fit Moenovel's ideals.

[OriginalRen]

Pulltop does do one thing: take down YouTube play series for visual novels.

 

Ban run.

[Darklord Rooke]

No, editors don't need to edit every single line just because it isn't in your style. 

 

Why would an editor edit every single line because it isn't in "their style?" It actually takes a lot of work to edit stuff, and fiddling with every line takes longer than you would believe. You wouldn't do it unless you had strong problems with the work in question. For example, if you ask Pabloc if he'd rather he didn't touch every line I think the answer would be an emphatic "Yes!"

 

You're presenting strawman arguments because they're easier to argue against. A fair few fan-translators who work on VNs speak english as a second or third language, and most of their lines need a touch up by an editor. Sure you COULD leave the sentences as they are, but if you're trying to expand a niche medium or produce a piece of work which can be enjoyed by as many people as possible then you aim for a higher standard. Not everyone has as high a tolerance as you do after all. 

 

Classmate: "Minase, are you really dating Hibane-san!?"

 

Natural sounding line :3

[OriginalRen]

Look, the original intent of me posting in this thread was to discuss how I think it's a little unfair to bash this translation for not sticking to the original content. I did not say that poor translation quality as a whole (which I am aware this isn't the best translation) is an okay thing. Somewhere along the line we got way off topic and I started arguing about how I hate people who think they are entitled to bash translations for knowing a little bit of Japanese. The same is true for people who argue that Japanese dubs are better than their English equivalents, and while that may be true in some cases, it merely comes down to a matter of taste. I got defensive with people in this thread because it reminded me of some translators from TLWiki, who in my mind are rude and selfish individuals who think they are the kings of visual novel translations and have the right to treat everyone else who translates like dirt. I would know this from 1st hand experience when kindly requesting them to be featured on a podcast and getting troll responses in return. Such professionalism, much wow.

 

I apologize for letting this conversation get way out of hand, and hope people can understand my original intent which was to say that I feel taking things out of the game led to a lot of disappointment; the bad translation was a given, and in no way do I take the stance that bad English is an okay thing.

[Mr Poltroon]

 the bad translation was a given, and in no way do I take the stance that bad English is an okay thing.

You sure made a piss-poor job of getting your point and stance across. 

Much wow.

 

 

Now, I made a thread precisely for translation discussion, so if people insist on bashing this TL I suggest you move over there. You'll have my full on hate train support.

 

Edit: I must apologize, as apparently Ren has taken offense to my actions. With valid reason, mind you. 

I do not mean harm, but I am more than well aware people may take it as such. Again, terribly sorry.

...Also, just for your information, bashing you for apologizing was precisely the point. This comment is here to ruin any chance you may get to do the same.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Tiagofvarela

[Aceinthehole]

It might be better to keep all this rage in a single thread though. Keep it contained.

[OriginalRen]

You sure made a piss-poor job of getting your point and stance across. 

Much wow.

 

I guess apologizing is taken the wrong way these days. My bad.

[Guest]

I think it's cool if whoever tries to start or localize a translation.

Quality may not be there in the end, but they worked on something they didn't have to.

 

If anybody here thinks he has the right to s*** on someone because the translation is poor, then go translate it yourself.

Nobody forces you to read it.

 

Good luck to Moenovel, whatever their plans are.

[Down]

I really don't get the argument that's being thrown around of "if you don't like a translation just go do it yourself and don't complain".

 

Shitting on a translation without any argument is stupid, period. Doesn't matter if the translation is fan-made or professional.

However I don't see why doing something for free and putting efforts into it somehow gives you immunity against all form of criticism. It's a piece of work, there are variable ways to assess how good it is (although those who criticize don't always possess them), so it can, no it WILL get evaluated.

And the "go do it yourself" is nonsensical too, if I write a review of a (even free) VN saying it's crap nobody is going to come to me saying "well then just go write your own" (at least I hope so).