Fluff in visual novels

[InvertMouse]

Hello~ Everyone, please still be my friend after I bring up this topic (>-<)! I'm just more curious (Chitanda style) than anything else, so here the backstory:

The other day, I received some feedback for my game, Unhack. The person was friendly so all good. Anyway, he mentioned my writing was trivial and that there were a lot of lines that contributed to no characterization or purpose. I must admit this made me go awww because succinct storytelling is something I've studied and strived to do for over a decade now (wanted to become a novelist before this).

We then discussed about whether commercial visual novels have unneeded scenes. I love older (not Key but oh well) works like ONE. Kanon was pretty all right, too. Recently, I tried to play Little Busters and Rewrite. I'll just focus on LB. This impatient old man here stopped playing because of these things:

- A lot of silly battles that felt like they contributed toward nothing. They're light hearted so I need to chill out.

- A long scene over making fun of Masato and giving him nicknames.

Next, I watched the anime in its entirely. Now, many say the VN is far better, and that's cool because this is usually the case. I must wonder, though, just how much better could it possibly be? The anime had entire episodes dedicated to:

- Chasing after a magic chicken.

- Taking over the canteen.

- A friend said these episodes will make sense when a twist is revealed. We'll have to see. Even if it's some parallel universe mind bend twist, the fact remains that 40 minutes were spent on those events.

Last, the anime featured a few routes, including Komari and Kud's routes. I have no doubt the VN's versions could be far better. But to be truthful, when those two routes ended in the anime, I thought, "I'm glad I didn't read the VN for 20+ hours for this kind of path". Haruka's one was pretty cool, though, so it's probably just a matter of some routes being better than others.

I'm particularly curious (and admittedly hurt) because people might say "look at how Key does it their writing is masterful" and I see the above things. If folks said, "look at Narcissu", then I'd go yeah now that's a masterpiece. Of course, it's all subjective. There's something I must go ahead and bring up, though. Let's take Clannad for example. Take out all of those amazing artworks in the game and replace them with subpar ones (like mine XD). Let's swap out those amazing soundtracks for some low budget piano ones, too. Would the writing suddenly seem far less flawed? I'd suspect that it would for many.

I'm going to sign off by contradicting myself. Madoka is a show that I feel is straight to be point and every scene has a purpose. Yet, for this very reason, I feel like I failed to like the characters as much as I could have. There were no scenes where the girls were just aimlessly fooling around. Those scenes are often the ones that help you grow attached to a cast. A bit like K-On. I have no answers. Just curious for some thoughts and the potential to get better.

Thank you heaps m(_ _)m!

[Kaguya]

Depending on the kind of work, not every scene needs to affect storyline or character relationships. Specially in a work like LB, where there is somewhat of a "I wish my silly and happy days kept going on forever without having to worry about the outside world" atmosphere, showing the silly and funny days seems very reasonable to me. I don't think that dialogue needs to be meaningful in some works, and Little Busters is one of those. There is meaningful dialogue as well, but it makes a great mix with the silly happy-go-lucky and somewhat crazy "normal days" that our main cast have. Being lighthearted and showing "normal" fun and friendly interaction is great for little busters, because the latter part of the story makes you think about how precious those normal days with no tension and just random fun were.

[Yeah Way]

I'd say "Key" has a habit of making their stuff too long in general. "Rewrite" is a great example: even though a lot of the content DOES serve a purpose, one would just want to skip maybe a few lines to get to the next major event. Stuff like that is more justifiable in an interactive experience: it can be labelled as "World-building" or something similar to such, a tool to make role-playing easier, for players who choose to do so, by easing them gradually into the storyverse. You could say that to your critic regarding your "Fluff", whether or not it was your original intention.

[Darklord Rooke]

Hello~ Everyone, please still be my friend after I bring up this topic (>-<)! I'm just more curious (Chitanda style) than anything else, so here the backstory:

Stop worrying. There's nothing wrong with anything you have said

The other day, I received some feedback for my game, Unhack. The person was friendly so all good. Anyway, he mentioned my writing was trivial and that there were a lot of lines that contributed to no characterization or purpose. I must admit this made me go awww because succinct storytelling is something I've studied and strived to do for over a decade now (wanted to become a novelist before this).

Congratulations on your game, I hope it brings you lots of fame and fortune... and wild kinky sex. You may want to look at this page to help you in cutting the fluff from your works: http://hollylisle.com/scene-creation-workshop-writing-scenes-that-move-your-story-forward/

The page advocates a simple rule for scene creation. Each scene makes a change which moves the story forward (whether that be through plot or character or setting etc.) This may be too strict a rule for you to want to follow(it's not right or wrong, just one author's preference), but it's a useful rule to keep in mind.

We then discussed about whether commercial visual novels have unneeded scenes.

Yes, plenty do. Many VNs don't have what you'd call... tight writing. And yes, Little Busters is a prime example. Some people say that a little fluff is good for getting to know the characters and bonding with them. Others will say that good authors can do this while still moving the story forward. Personally I don't mind a bit of mindless fluff, but in moderation. Little Busters had too much for my liking.

[shcboomer]

I think having a bit of fluff is necessary, not necessarily to push more content out, but also to give readers a break. If you were reading something for say hours, I doubt you want hard core in-depth analysis of every single section. It's good to give readers a break. Also with Key works, I'd say all the fluff is necessary. Especially for stories such as Little Busters. It has so much to do with their writing style and the way they set up their stories that requires it. In that regard, a lot of VNs have some fluff and comedy to break down the VN.

[sanahtlig]

I hate fluff. If a game has too much of it, I'll drop it. I agree that tight storytelling is important. Every scene should serve a purpose. This is why I can't stand most moege and moe anime. Many of my favorite anime are 12-26 episodes, as the short series tend to have tighter writing.

[Yeah Way]

I hate fluff. If a game has too much of it, I'll drop it. I agree that tight storytelling is important. Every scene should serve a purpose. This is why I can't stand most moege and moe anime. Many of my favorite anime are 12-26 episodes, as the short series tend to have tighter writing.

Would you never simply want to see some good characters interacting for the sake of such?

[Eurobeatz]

I'm with sanahtlig, I hate fluff. Watching fluff I can tolerate, but reading it? Ugh. However, I can enjoy fluff if I love the characters and/or it's genuinely funny (though I rarely find VNs funny). For example, I really loved the fluff scenes in Dra+KoI.

[InvertMouse]

Thank you for all the reply folks !

@Kaguya: It's interesting to hear there are players who like a bit of fun scenes in their VNs and I can definitely see why. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens in Little Busters Refrain .

@Yeah Way: That's a cool point. If I went in with more of a roleplaying mindset I might actually have more fun with it. I should try that .

@Rooke: Thanks XD! And cheers for the link, too. More materials is always good.

@shcboomer: That's very true. Thanks for chiming in ~

@sanahtlig: I'm the same way. My favorite anime are pretty much all 12-13 episodes long .

@Eurobeatz: Yeah, I think I can enjoy fluff after I've already fallen in love with the cast. If I love a cast of characters, I would rather see them fool around in an anthology manga, etc.

Looking forward to reading more thoughts ~

[InvertMouse]

I feel like reviving this thread in case any new users have additional thoughts ~

 

Recently, I've been reading keep an out eye on the thread Pet Peeves in VNs. Admittedly, it's for personal benefits because the games I make are often VN like and so I want to study people's mindsets.

 

In the thread, many have raised that they dislike VNs with too much padding. For example, when a game starts off with the main characters fooling around for the first 10 hours, that's often questionable.

 

Even though I frequent this forum, I in fact rarely finish any VN I pick up. This was a non-issue in the past. Maybe it's my lack of time these days, or frankly, just me becoming impatient as I become a grumpy old man. In any case, I feel like most VNs out there have an obscene about of padding. I would love to hear some opinions on this. If I may guess, I feel like a lot of players actually agree, but they're more accepting of it than I am. Perhaps they even enjoy it, because it does provide characterization opportunities.

 

Thanks! Looking forward to hearing some thoughts .

[Wahfuu]

I think the quality of said fluff is important, honestly. If it's between characters that have no chemistry or that you don't like of course you aren't going to enjoy it and think it's just filling space. When it's the opposite though, the reverse happens. Suddenly you are just enveloped in the friendship/warmth and fun the characters are having and it helps sell the atmosphere and relationship between who's on screen. Really, people use the term 'pointless' all too often.

Hell, I don't think I know a VN where the entire story is 100% advancing at all times. Closest I've ever gotten to would probably be Baldr but those games are known for its crazy pacing, and even then it uses a rather plotty reason to sell the relationship between the cast members.

Fluff is.. kinda subjective I guess.

 

[wattstax]

Maybe you should make a poll to see how much padding is disliked or not. I for myself enjoy long common routes as well as long running animes, IF the plot is not totally forgotten. If the characters are interesting I love to see more of their daily routine and habits. But that's also because I rather focus on the emotions of the characters and have a problem with too fast advancing plots. How to explain? I want to dwell a bit in achieved accomplishments before going on.

[Albedo]

Would you never simply want to see some good characters interacting for the sake of such?

 

Nope. If they interact, it's gotta be for some reason, either to move the plot or to reveal something about the character's personalities that might be relevant down the road or a complete red herring, that is fine too. But the point is, the author is giving you information that is in service to the plot. If they established that, say, character X is a tsundere wannabe with a bad case of the blondness in the previous 2 scenes, you don't need 43 more scenes of the same thing (and nothing else.) In other words, that David Mamet memo's pretty good.

 

I feel exactly the opposite to Invermouse in regards to Madoka, I think the reason why it worked so well it's because there's no fluff, at all, everything happens real fast and they do seem to have it planned for everything since the beggining, as opposed to making things up as they go. A Beach/Onsen episode wouldn't fit the tone at all.

[Vokoca]

I feel like this really depens on the kind of genre the visual novel is. I generally don't mind fluff, as it usually helps build the characters and make you care for them, as is the case with KEY VNs - but if somehow these scenes fail to do even that, then they really don't have any place there. It probably worked in the KEY novels since they keep all the fluff for the common route, and when things truly get moving, they get moving - and there aren't any unnecessary scenes anymore. But then again, I can understand how people can find the common routes incredibly boring and dull - I found them quite nice, considering their purpose.

 

But if there is a VN that starts with the serious plot right way, then fluff has no place in it, in my opinion. Once things "get real", so to speak, I want to quickly get to the next twists and developments, not wade through useless scenes.

 

In short, I don't mind VN fluff when it's in the beginning of the story. It definitely isn't exciting to read, but I suppose I've sort of came to expect it, or got used to it? Not sure, I never really minded it in the first place. To give a different example from KEY works, Ever17 does the same thing, and it works well. Hell, even Ryukishi utilizes this in Higurashi, where the first half of each arc could be considered fluff - I just see it as a nice way of getting attached to the characters.

 

I think the quality of said fluff is important, honestly. If it's between characters that have no chemistry or that you don't like of course you aren't going to enjoy it and think it's just filling space. When it's the opposite though, the reverse happens. Suddenly you are just enveloped in the friendship/warmth and fun the characters are having and it helps sell the atmosphere and relationship between who's on screen. Really, people use the term 'pointless' all too often.
(...)
Fluff is.. kinda subjective I guess.

Couldn't agree more.

[Undying]

Theres nothin wrong with a bit o fluff, the problem is when the fluff surpass the main argument. The fluf must be dosed in the story so it doens`t become to much irrelevant, or even worse, simply boring and painful to move foward in the story.

[Flutterz]

You didn't finish LB? D: I don't think we can be friends anymore...

 

I agree with Vokoca in that it depends a lot on the genre of the VN or the part of the VN that fluff appears. If it's a SoL, then it's great. If the author is trying to achieve something specific with it, like Higurashi, then that's great too.

[Nosebleed]

I like the fluff as long as it's not exaggerated and in balance with what the VN is trying to accomplish. 

But i think what this does is, like InvertMouse pointed out, make you get attached to the characters and see more of their personality rather than just events and the plot moving forward. I think it's something you need and as long as it's well balanced it shouldn't really be harmful in my opinion.

I mean i loved the fight scenes in Little Busters. One of the things i loved hte most were those breaks in the baseball practice where you could watch Kurugaya mess around with the girls. I absolutely LOVED those moments and they genuinely made me laugh.

I think it's just because SoL is one of my favorite genres but i just personally like this stuff and like growing attached to the characters. That's just me though.

[Vokoca]

I like the fluff as long as it's not exaggerated and in balance with what the VN is trying to accomplish. 

But i think what this does is, like InvertMouse pointed out, make you get attached to the characters and see more of their personality rather than just events and the plot moving forward. I think it's something you need and as long as it's well balanced it shouldn't really be harmful in my opinion.

I mean i loved the fight scenes in Little Busters. One of the things i loved hte most were those breaks in the baseball practice where you could watch Kurugaya mess around with the girls. I absolutely LOVED those moments and they genuinely made me laugh.

I think it's just because SoL is one of my favorite genres but i just personally like this stuff and like growing attached to the characters. That's just me though.

I agree with everything you've said. The "Goddamn, don't touch me or else you'll get numb!" scene is probably my favourite moment from the whole VN. 

 

Though I also enjoy slice-of-life stuff, even the sort of anime that could be considered absolutely plot-less, like K-On, Yuru Yuri, Nichijou and such. The characters and humour is what makes it to me, so much that the anime/VN can become one of my favourites - so, on the other hand, I guess there are people who can't stand this kind of thing?

[InvertMouse]

I agree with everything you've said. The "Goddamn, don't touch me or else you'll get numb!" scene is probably my favourite moment from the whole VN. 

 

Though I also enjoy slice-of-life stuff, even the sort of anime that could be considered absolutely plot-less, like K-On, Yuru Yuri, Nichijou and such. The characters and humour is what makes it to me, so much that the anime/VN can become one of my favourites - so, on the other hand, I guess there are people who can't stand this kind of thing?

 

Ever since I left uni, I've been struggling to find time to play VNs, so I have no patience for fooling around . Maybe I need to change my perspective, though. Then again, I always say that and then just end up dropping a game because I've lost patience again.

 

I tried playing Hoshizora no Memoria last year. The main character is moving houses with his little sister. *Two hours later* The main character is moving houses with his sister. Sorry guys (TUT).

[floral]

Fluff in Visual Novels, anime, other shows, manga, comics, movies, stories, and life, whether an adult area or not serves a purpose.  Not every scene has to a direct link/part to the overall main storyline.  If it did i doubt jokes would have been thought of, cultural society itself would not be diverse aside from language.  In fiction it can and often does pull you into the story, helps bond you to the characters.

 

No depth, no drama, no embarrassing parts that can freeze you, no touching moments that can make you cry, no music that captures your heart and soul for a little.  Your emotions are a type of fluff, the way you react to a story is based on fluff or lack thereof.  But stories would be mostly bland without it.

 

Think if you will, what would the Harry Potter stories or the Chronicles of Narnia be like if you eliminated all the fluff from the stories.  We would not have been as captured and enthralled if we were at all.  The stories would not have been great to read or listen to on the audio books unabridged versions.

 

i say keep the fluff that is there in the stories.  They would not be as engaging or as great without it.