Conjueror's Untranslated Visual Novel Tournament [Discussion]

[Maxel]

35 minutes ago, ChaosRaven said:

I think from the current votig group Soushuu Senshinkan would be the only title I'm interested in. Though to be honest, taking Dies Irae aside, from Light's titles I would prefer Silverio Vendetta over that one. But Silverio Vendetta already ended up in a disastrous 4th place. Probably too new, so the name wasn't popular enough yet.

Makes me wonder why people are hyping so much over Sakura no Uta instead, considering it looks more like school life moege Ikikoi 2 - Boredom Reloaded. Silverio Vendetta looks far more interesting and is also highly rated. People complain that they just get run of the mill school life VN's the whole time, but if they actually get the choice they vote it over and over again.

Yet somehow Sakura no Uta wins couple VNOTY awards + get the highest EGS score in 2015, and it's also currently TOP 7 overall, averaging 90/100 points. It would be strange for it to be "Ikikoi 2 - Boredom Reloaded" 

Hype... is.... real.

EDIT

I even checked Ikikoi for you, and it have pretty bad rating on japanese side too.

 

[VirginSmasher]

4 minutes ago, Maxel said:

Yet somehow Sakura no Uta wins couple VNOTY awards + get the highest EGS score in 2015, and it's also currently TOP 7 overall, averaging 90/100 points. It would be strange for it to be "Ikikoi 2 - Boredom Reloaded" 

Hype... is.... real.

 

 

It may just be blind Sca-Ji fanboys who fap to him every night 

It's probably just that it's a good VN. VN readers are not stupid enough to rate shit like Ikikoi so high.

[ChaosRaven]

57 minutes ago, Maxel said:

Yet somehow Sakura no Uta wins couple VNOTY awards + get the highest EGS score in 2015, and it's also currently TOP 7 overall, averaging 90/100 points. It would be strange for it to be "Ikikoi 2 - Boredom Reloaded" 

Hype... is.... real.

I'm aware that's it's certainly much better than Ikikoi, however even if it's a very good VN, it's still a VN with a super generic school life scenario. There were several other very good and highly rated VN's like Hatsuyuki Sakura in the voting groups which weren't celebrated like the second coming of Fate/Stay Night. Silverio Vendetta is also very highly rated on EGS and VNDB. And Dies Irae is currently at least almost as hyped as Subarashiki Hibi. So it's not that people wouldn't know about Light.

So I'm simply a bit irritaded why people go completely crazy over a school life VN just because it's written by Sca-Ji and ignore VN's of comparable quality but with a much more interesting scenario. And it's almost worse with the Cross Channel retranslation which did beat Silverio Vendetta directly. It's not even particularly high rated on VNDB with barely an 8.0. And a high school scenario with students with psychological problems, time loop and a perverted protagonist?! Even if it's greatly written, is a more generic scenario even possible?

So maybe people don't really want new and interesting scenario's, maybe they just want their endless school life VN's again and again just with slighly better writing. Overall, there must be reason why the Japanese hardly produce anything else. And the votings don't exactly make me believe otherwise.

[Chuee]

3 minutes ago, ChaosRaven said:

I'm aware that's it's certainly much better than Ikikoi, however even if it's a very good VN, it's still a VN with a super generic school life scenario.

And this matters why...? 

Just because it uses a cliche setting doesn't mean it can't be a meaningful, and good story. 

[Down]

Dude, you're judging 20+ hours long VN on their 10 line badly done synopses (synopses are somehow always terrible, I'm not sure how that's doable).

Believe me, as far as I'm concerned generic school setting moege/whatever can eat shit, but there's a reason why SakuUta is currently my 2nd best rated VN on vndb.

And the generic school setting moege argument doesn't hold, Dies Irae has high-schoolers and chuu2 superpowers, if you stay at that that's also one of the most generic thing you could think of in otaku media. The individual games are what matter more here.

[ChaosRaven]

3 minutes ago, Chuee said:

And this matters why...? 

Just because it uses a cliche setting doesn't mean it can't be a meaningful, and good story. 

It does matter, because other comparable highly rated school life VN's are criticized because of that but Sca-Ji's aren't. It actually reminds me a bit of Key-fanboyism.

[Decay]

Seriously, Dies irae's setting is really generic. So is Senshinkan's. If you'd vote for those, then you're being hypocritical as hell, ChaosRaven.

Anyways, I voted for Hoshi Ori Yume Mirai. I will make no apologies for my tastes.

[Maxel]

Senshinkan on top, Saihate no Ima is second (I'm kinda glad) Evenicle is saying: "Sayonara!" and Suzuki, Suzuki... what? (well, it's at least got double digit)

 

@ChaosRaven You seem to understimate what a bad translation can do to a Visual Novel written in hard japanese language. That's what happened to Cross Channel. Looks like SCA-JI and Romeo knows how to change generic school-setup into masterpiece, kudos to them. Will read if they will get proper translations and evaluate them myself.

 

Nooo, my HoshiOri, why!?!?

[VirginSmasher]

7 minutes ago, Chuee said:

And this matters why...? 

Just because it uses a cliche setting doesn't mean it can't be a meaningful, and good story. 

Exactly. A cliche setting doesn't automatically mean it sucks. That's a stupid way to think. Kara No Shoujo is your typical mystery novel in VN form, yet it's a great story. Like Decay said, a lot of those masterpieces of VNs have cliche settings as well.

[ChaosRaven]

1 minute ago, Decay said:

Seriously, Dies irae's setting is really generic. So is Senshinkan's. If you'd vote for those, then you're being hypocritical as hell, ChaosRaven.

Uh, no! Maybe it's generic for western movie and game standards, but it's certainly not generic for Japanese VN standards. I've never read a VN with such a scenario, and I wouldn't even know a comparable one with an English translation.

[Ayana]

I won't try to defend all of the aforementioned "generic school setting with a wacky scenario" works I personally adore like Cross+Channel, Subarashiki Hibi, and Sakura no Uta for being great. After all, in none of those works does the author even care about a scenario or a plot and I can't call them great (I and other people just like what they stand for and express that by rating it highly since it's simple to do so) as a result. Instead, those works involve the author being self-aware and communicating that to his environment yada yada; the themes the ideas etc. and the ways in which they are explored are crucial steps to putting forth whatever message the author wants to put forth in whatever form. It's prioritizing the end over the means, and that does not make the work greater than another or whatever.

[ChaosRaven]

5 minutes ago, VirginSmasher said:

Exactly. A cliche setting doesn't automatically mean it sucks. That's a stupid way to think. Kara No Shoujo is your typical mystery novel in VN form, yet it's a great story. Like Decay said, a lot of those masterpieces of VNs have cliche settings as well.

I've never said it sucks. I just expressed my curiosity why people prefer it so much over more interesting scenario's. And I want to emphasize that I mean generic by Japanese standards not westerns standards. Kara no Shoujo is an extremely unique scenario for Japanese standards. But just ask MangaGamer how satisfied they are with its sales.

I'm interested in some school life VN's myself, so it's not that I'd hate them.

[Decay]

Maybe because "interesting" is an extremely relative and subjective term?

BTW, stories like Dies irae may not be common in english-translated VNs (although there are a few), they are extremely common in anime and manga.

[Deep Blue]

nice to see Saihate no Ima is getting some votes but I really doubt anyone would really have the patience to translate that novel, is actually at the level or even more complex to translate than cross channel (romeo is just a weird and complicate dude lol)

[ChaosRaven]

11 minutes ago, Ayana said:

I won't try to defend all of the aforementioned "generic school setting with a wacky scenario" works I personally adore like Cross+Channel, Subarashiki Hibi, and Sakura no Uta for being great. After all, in none of those does the author even talk about a "scenario" or "plot" anyways and I can't call them great (I and many other people just like what they stand for and express that by rating it highly) as a result. Instead, those works involve on the author being self-aware and communicating to his environment yada yada; the themes and ideas etc. and the ways in which they are explored are crucial steps to putting forth whatever message the author wants to put forth in whatever form.

I'm fine with that, but does that mean that Silverio Vendetta 'sucks' because it just ended up on 4th place? Neither Silverio Vendetta nor Sakura no Uta have a translation, but everyone celebrates Sakura no Uta while nobody gives a damn about Silverio Vendetta. So my interpretaion is that people have indeed much more interest in school life VN's than VN's with other scenario's. That's pretty much just an observation. I thought it would be more the Japanese VN fans that prefer the scenario, but overall it looks like the wester VN scene isn't really different: School life VN's >> everything else.

[Darklord Rooke]

4 minutes ago, Decay said:

BTW, stories like Dies irae may not be common in english-translated VNs (although there are a few), they are extremely common in anime and manga.

You’re probably referring to those shounen titles that tend to be boring and overrated  (haha, don't hunt me down fellas, I'm armed, clumsy, and dangerous to everybody around me...)

Dies Irae is lauded mostly for it’s narration. You lose all that in an anime, though.

[VirginSmasher]

5 minutes ago, ChaosRaven said:

I'm fine with that, but does that mean that Silverio Vendetta 'sucks' because it just ended up on 4th place? Neither Silverio Vendetta nor Sakura no Uta have a translation, but everyone celebrates Sakura no Uta while nobody gives a damn about Silverio Vendetta. So my interpretaion is that people have indeed much more interest in school life VN's than VN's with other scenario's. That's pretty much just an observation. I thought it would be more the Japanese VN fans that prefer the scenario, but overall it looks like the wester VN scene isn't really different: School life VN's >> everything else.

Probably because Masada didn't work on Silverio. People praise SakuUta because of Sca-Ji while Silverio gets overlooked because whenever people vote on this tournament, if they see a Sca-Ji or a Masada VN, they'll vote for it. It is quite sad to see that Silverio won't make it further while AkaGoei which I don't have any particular interest in passes. Oh well, SakuUta has barely a chance of winning anyways with Muramasa and Dies Irae still in the tournament.

[Ayana]

24 minutes ago, ChaosRaven said:

I'm fine with that, but does that mean that Silverio Vendetta 'sucks' because it just ended up on 4th place? Neither Silverio Vendetta nor Sakura no Uta have a translation, but everyone celebrates Sakura no Uta while nobody gives a damn about Silverio Vendetta. So my interpretaion is that people have indeed much more interest in school life VN's than VN's with other scenario's. That's pretty much just an observation. I thought it would be more the Japanese VN fans that prefer the scenario, but overall it looks like the wester VN scene isn't really different: School life VN's >> everything else.

You're right about that. It's awful that some people (including me) who rate these "ends before the means" works highly decide it's alright to repeat the same lazy expression (I know that I have many times merely told people that "Subahibi is great") to other people or communities and end up overhyping something actually transparent to all of those people with all their differing views/inclinations/preferences/etc. This goes the same for every sort of work in any medium. The "disconnect" here results from the people who do this not actually knowing what these highly rated works are about/entail -- after all they're so highly rated so they should feel like that's a sort of guarantee for something quality by their standards and values.

[Down]

It's perfectly fascinating that we not only have pretty complex (and formed in complex ways) pre-established opinions about works we haven't read/watched yet, but we also discuss vehemently over them and popularity polls where they're featured much in the same way we do for stuff we did read/watch.

I realized that as I was preparing to type an answer to Rooke to say that what people praise in Dies is far from being just narration when I realized the number of people who actually read Dies in that thread (I'm not one of them) is probably equal to the number of those shônen manga that Rooke likes so much to make fun of that he has read in his entire life. And yet here we are taking part in this nonsense. And I almost participated in it despite criticizing it already elsewhere. And we even enjoy it.

I think I'll just link this great (and depressing) article from the Paris Review, On the Pleasures of Not Reading.

[Valmore]

No poll to click on? I have to wade through a mess of Excel spreadsheets? I mean, I get paid to do that stuff every day.

I'm going to go find a write-in candidate. Just like how I voted for myself for President in 2012.

[Darklord Rooke]

3 minutes ago, Down said:

I think I'll just link this great (and depressing) article from the Paris Review, On the Pleasures of Not Reading.

Do I actually have to read that?  

I should point out the literary critic who made that article against Pratchett later read one of his books and expanded on the points he made. He was also spot on - Pratchett for all his strengths is an entertainer and not a literary genius, and furthermore his prose isn't that strong. The people who exploded into tears are mostly fanboys. As a great Pratchett fan, I'm perfectly fine with admitting his weaknesses though. I reject a lot of the points that article makes, btw, mainly because he bases at least some of his points off assumptions.

If you want to educate me on the strengths of Dies Irae, I'm all ears. 

Back on topic: 

Japanese readers will hype up Japanese VNs they consider worthy, and this excitement will infect some in the community who can’t read Japanese, which in turn will generate a fair amount of hype. But whether they’re celebrated when it’s releaed to the English audience is a question I’m not willing to conclusively answer.

Gahkthun is written by an author with lovely prose, and is lauded by people who speak Japanese – it sold pretty badly however. Same with Cartagra, KnS, KnS2, erm … do we have any others? I dunno/can’t remember.

I have a sneaking suspicion the titles considered ‘kamige’ won’t be celebrated as highly as people think. I have a sneaking suspicion that Masada and Romeo won’t be celebrated in the West as highly as people think. The acid test comes when Himawari is released. Let’s see if the trend continues – will people actually buy it?

[Down]

The points of the article about the guy who attacked Pratchett are not the most interesting part of it.

But it's only tangentially related - it's more about despairing at how many books we'll never read and how we derive pleasure from simply not liking an author we've never read, I'm more fascinated by the way opinion constructs itself, especially when in this case it's based on anything but the actual work, since that's pretty informative on the way opinion forms itself when you actually read the thing.

And I haven't read Dies Irae either. Hence the irony.

 

Regarding your last point - no, they probably won't do well. They're already sort of a niche within a niche (each in their own way) in Japan too, they make okay sales, not incredible ones (except Masada, whom I suspect would also be popular around here, not necessarily for the good reasons but well I'm talking out of my ass since I haven't read a line of his).
I'm not looking to defend any game or w/e though, I... just find this whole discussion around those polls absurd in an interesting way.

[Darklord Rooke]

15 minutes ago, Down said:

But it's only tangentially related - it's more about despairing at how many books we'll never read and how we derive pleasure from simply not liking an author we've never read, I'm more fascinated by the way opinion constructs itself, especially when in this case it's based on anything but the actual work, since that's pretty informative on the way opinion forms itself when you actually read the thing.

I'll explain a little how it is related, it's fairly easy because I do the same things with novels. 

Pratchett has weak prose and weak description in a lot of instances. The guy who was writing the article likes writers who know how to evoke vivid imagery with words. A strong grasp of language in other words. To discern whether an author can do this requires a mere flick through the novel, you don’t have to read the entire thing to know this. He also likes courageous tackling of themes and he feels Pratchett can get away too easily not facing themes head on by tackling issues in a make believe land.

Quote

But for some reason, the fantasy genre is a graveyard for the English language. Even Tolkien himself – and yes, I have read him thoroughly – wrote an ordinary, flat, Hobbitish prose.

“The sky was blue.”

“It was a million-to-one chance, with any luck.”

“Simony laughed bitterly.”

This is the difference between entertainment and literature – the novel as distraction and the novel as art. You cannot divorce a literary novel from the way it is written. Sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraph, literature is the words and nothing but.

Plenty of novels get published and loved that are not literature in this sense, but all I am saying, and all I was saying, is that I prefer the literary kind. I prefer it by a billion Ephebian miles.

Is part of what he says. There are plenty of things you can 'get' from skimming a novel, I can pick up whether an author's style appeals to me, the pacing, description levels, whether they know about what they're writing about. As you live your life you understand more about yourself, more about your likes and dislikes, and you can pick up (generally) which books are written in ways which will and won't appeal to you. Youth is about new experiences and trying things, as you age it tends to become more about what's comfortable. This is what your article says:

Quote

“Jones, in reacting so acidly to Pratchett—who, by the way, I’ve also never read, though I’m holding out hope for myself—was no doubt responding mostly to this same set of signifiers: to the downmarket, campy designs that mark most of Pratchett’s books; to the author’s affinity for unfashionable hats; to the sometimes mawkish, adulatory tone of the notices that followed his death; and to genre fiction’s longstanding status as plain entertainment.”

See the above? So far off the mark it’s amusing. So if you’re interested in the way opinion constructs itself, analyse that bitter paragraph and see what conclusion you race toward  

[Darklord Rooke]

First Rance VI, then Evenicle ... RPGs not popular here  

[Decay]

The RPG gameplay in VN hybrids is typically pretty bad. If I want to play an RPG, I'll play a good RPG.