OELVN vs JVN

[Zakamutt]

I think people here are generally of the opinion that most if not all OELVNs are not really worth reading. I'd also say that hardly all OELVN writers are native speakers, and a decent few don't write well even though they are. Who would feel encouraged to read by a crappy story? Perhaps hyperbole, but nevertheless.

[Darklord Rooke]

I think people here are generally of the opinion that most if not all OELVNs are not really worth reading. I'd also say that hardly all OELVN writers are native speakers, and a decent few don't write well even though they are. Who would feel encouraged to read by a crappy story? Perhaps hyperbole, but nevertheless.

 

Yeah actually, it is. I could just as easily say "most translated VNs are crappy nukige. Who the hell would want to read that shit?"

[InvertMouse]

Yeah actually, it is. I could just as easily say "most translated VNs are crappy nukige. Who the hell would want to read that shit?"

 

"But pretty drawings and $$$ and it is from Japan mean it must be a good game hype hype hype hype hype  ."

[zoom909]

"But pretty drawings and $$$ and it is from Japan mean it must be a good game hype hype hype hype hype  ."

You almost got it right.

The correct statement is "Unless it has pretty drawings and it is from Japan it cannot be a good galgame."

At least, it is correct in my world.

[Zakamutt]

You's disregarding that comparing the amount of oelvns considered decent to the amount of translated story vns considered decent is a thing when making the nukige comparison though.

[Darklord Rooke]

You's disregarding that the amount of oelvns considered decent compared to the amount of translated story vns considered decent is a thing when making the nukige comparison though.

 

You're forgetting that "decent" is a subjective experience dependant on the individual. For example I find only a handful of translated VNs to be "decent" due to my prejudices with writing style and my despise of bloat in plot-driven stories. I find most translations of VNs to be written (in English) just as badly, if not worse, than OELVNs. I know of at least one professional author who writes high quality free OELVNs in her spare time (including a localisation of a Russian fairy tale.) I know that there's hardly any translations of good "sim" games compared to a wealth of original "sim" games developed in the West. Same with otome. Same with RPG/VN hybrids.

 

I play far more OELVNs than Japanese VNs, and I do so because I find them more appealing to my prejudices. There's tens of thousands OELVN fans, whether they congregate on Fuwa or not may have something to do with the traditional attitudes of the eroge fanbase.

[Clephas]

I'm not against OELVNs... I'd just rather read a straight-out novel than a western-written VN, lol. 

[Pabloc]

Yeah actually, it is. I could just as easily say "most translated VNs are crappy nukige. Who the hell would want to read that shit?"

Except that statistically, the majority of translated VNs are not nukiges, so that statement is simply objectively wrong.

And while Zakamutt's statement is obviously a subjective opinion, it's far from being a hyperbole. I can count actually readable non-Japanese VNs on my fingers (I'm talking only about pure VNs, since I'm not playing dating sims). Of course, there are some exceptions and their quality seems to be slowly improving, but there's still some way to go.

 

And while I agree that the quality of translations is often very questionable, the vast majority of those still have better writing than an average OELVN (plenty of those are on the level of a bad fanfic...). Plus, a huge problem with many Western VNs is that they try to be as Japanese as possible, which usually results in weeaboo garbage. Those that avoid forced (pseudo)Japanese settings, sometimes can be quite interesting. I wonder why there are so few adaptations of literary works/fairy tales/etc., those are generally the best OELVNs I have read so far.

[Darklord Rooke]

Except that statistically, the majority of translated VNs are not nukiges, so that statement is simply objectively wrong.

 

So was his.

 

And while Zakamutt's statement is obviously a subjective opinion, it's far from being a hyperbole. I can count actually readable non-Japanese VNs on my fingers (I'm talking only about pure VNs, since I'm not playing dating sims). 

 

I can count far more than that. I believe I sent a list of 30 I considered “good” to Nohman without even thinking too hard. Pure VNs. However let’s take the flip side. I consider most translated VNs to read like high school fanfiction filled with an obscene amount of bloat where characters stand around doing SFA. 

 

And while I agree that the quality of translations is often very questionable, the vast majority of those still have better writing than an average OELVN (plenty of those are on the level of a bad fanfic...). 

 

Where I rate most unofficially translated VNs, with some exceptions.

 

Plus, a huge problem with many Western VNs is that they try to be as Japanese as possible, which usually results in weeaboo garbage. 

 

A huge problem with many Japanese VNs is that they are nukige, which tend to be sex-filled garbage... with some exceptions

 

You see how opinionated this debate can be? We can keep going all day...

[Down]

I saw people talking statistics so I came in.

According to the very convenient lists pinned at the top of this section, there are currently about 300 translated VNs (probably less actually accessible ones) and 140 nukige. I think it's a safe assumption to assume that maybe 50 of those are written decently well, and I doubt we could find more than 10 titles that are actually really well written. It's no accident that when we make a thread asking people "what translation impressed you the most" there's barely more than 3-4 titles in total that are mentionned.

 

On the other hand, asking just a few knowledgeable members nohman had no difficulty putting together a list of 40 noteworthy OELVNs. I think we can safely assume that at least 30 (if not all) of those will be at least at the decently well level I mentioned before.

 

So I think the absolute numbers are not only comparable, they might even be in favor of OELVNs. Maybe in percentage it's worse because there's myriads of badly written fanfics out there. So what. I'm sure despite all of its acclaimed writers, the eroge doujin scene in Japan is also filled to the brim with trash.

[Down]

I'm aware of the difficulties of translation, and I'm aware that a really good translation of a VN is pretty much a miracle.

 

My point was that it's absurd to proclaim that most OELVNs are not worth it, or written like crap, when there's probably more decently written ones than there are well translated VNs out there. I'm not bringing into that any other factor, be it the subjective "quality of the story", or the "production value" (which can include the translation process), just the final result in terms of prose.

 

That's why Down writes "it's no hazard" rather than "it's no accident."

[Clephas]

Meh.  Sorry about causing trouble if it wasn't bothering anyone... but rants like that one tend to completely derail threads...

 

To be honest... OELVNs don't interest me that much for a variety of reasons. 

 

The first is, quite simply, I prefer the ridiculously high-quality visuals you get in Japanese VNs, along with Japanese voices.  English voices just remind me how much I want to commit one of the Seven Deadlies by disemboweling people who talk to me in English irl... 

 

Another is that, for me, VNs are an easy way to experience Japanese writing... tbh, I don't get nearly as much out of having to puzzle out something like the Genji Monogatari over the course of a month as I do from three hours of Dies Irae, simply because I can achieve something closer to my normal reading speed if I have access to jparser, lol. 

 

Yet another is that I simply have yet to experience an OELVN that matches my expectations for good English writing... understand, when I say good English writing, I mean something on the level of Steven Brust or Jim Butcher at the very minimum.  Nothing turns me off more than a story told almost entirely through dialog and simplistic descriptions of actions.  Morever, romance stories, while bearable in Japanese, are boring as hell to me in English (yes, I know what that says about me...). 

 

The best of those few OELVNs I've been able to bring myself to sample in the last few years have reminded me of my years reading cheap novels based in the Forgotten Realms as a kid... which was fine when I was in middle school... but now? 

 

Do I think OELVNs lack potential?  Quite the reverse.  I think that if it gets off the ground commercially, OELVNs could eventually surpass Japanese ones, at least in terms of narrative.  The simple fact that ninety-nine percent of all Japanese VNs are either nukige or moege, both of which lack a decent narrative in most cases, pretty much tells you how easy it would be to surpass them in narrative quality.

 

I would absolutely love to see a Dies Irae-level epic OELVN come out at some point... since we don't have some of their difficulties with portraying violence, I daresay we would do a much better job on that point. 

 

Edit:  Yes, I know, my perspective is of someone who isn't limited by a lack of Japanese knowledge... and so it is naturally skewed in a direction those who can only play translated can't follow.

[Pabloc]

So was his.

[Darklord Rooke]

Zakamutt's statement was a purely subjective opinion (as you said yourself), it can be neither objectively right nor wrong by definition.

[Okami]

Okay Rooke science you are trying so hard to prove that OELVNs are as good as JVNs let me ask you just one question. Could you name 10 decent OELVNs? Science other then KS I really doubt that there are more then few decent ones.

 

 

In my opinion yes pretty much it has to be from Japan to be good (With some exceptions) as Japan is the creator of VNs as a media the only ones that takes making of VNs really seriously. Not to mention that Japan is also the only country that makes anime and so they have far more experience in making anime-like stories and VNs need to be anime-like. West needs far more time before they menage to decently copy a Japanese style and level of VNs.

[Life]

Every country has its own unique style in storytelling and I actually don't mind who writes the vn as long as it is enjoyable. Say there is a wide consensus that even 1 OELVN is good, I would think of that as a reason as to why not to disregard western VNs. They definitely do have potential and there are a few good ones out there.

[Darklord Rooke]

Okay Rooke science you are trying so hard to prove that OELVNs are as good as JVNs let me ask you just one question. Could you name 10 decent OELVNs? Science other then KS I really doubt that there are more then few decent ones.

 

I said above I gave a list of about 30 to Nohman. Including titles like Cinders and a short (free) adaption of a Russian fairy tale written by a published author. I believe he pinned a list of his selections in the recommedation forums based on suggestions by me and some others. 

 

Whether the games from the English scene are as good as the Japanese VNs really depends on the individual, because at the end of the day people enjoy different types of stories. I'm arguing against the complete dismissal of the entire genre by people in the eroge fanbase, a long-held view which ignores a significant and growing part of the VN industry.

 

the only ones that takes making of VNs really seriously. 

 

I imagine the devs who make these things for a living take it really seriously. The people who release free VNs after forking out thousands of their own dollars also. Yes, OELVN studios regularly hire people now. Even some of the free VNs.

 

and VNs need to be anime-like. 

 

No they don't. 

 

EDIT: What I'll do is I'll name ten OELVNs which I consider to be decent from ten different studios. That way you'll be able to tell I still have some up my sleeve and I'm not scraping the metaphorical bottom of the barrel, okay?

 

The Royal Trap - Hanako Games (commercial, otome)

Katawa Shoujo - Thingamybob Studios (I can't remember...)

Dysfunctional Systems - Dischan

The Adventures of Prince Ivan - Dark Erotica Studios (Free VN by Morgan Hawke, a published romance author.)

Cinders - Moacube (Solstice will be released soon :3 )

Analogue A Hate Story - Christine Love (the lady who sold over 30,000 copies of her VN a few years back)

Autumn's Journey - Apple Cider (free)

Jisei - SakeVisual (not free)

X-Note - Zeiva

Icebound - Slight puzzle gameplay from some dude with a theatre degree (I think.)

 

That's not delving into Sim hybrids which is where I think the Western Dev scene REALLY shines atm with Black Chicken Studios my clear favourite, combining hard-core Sim gameplay with tight writing. And that's also not mentioning  InvertMouse's stuff, which I really should mention cause he's a champ, his games are tons of fun, he's an avid student of the written word, and he works incredibly hard at his stuff.

[Okami]

No they don't. 

 

 

Now I see where the problem lies, you my friend don't even know what a VNs are all about.

 

You see VNs are part of Otaku culture and Otaku culture is all about Anime and Anime-like stuff, If you want Russian fairy tales then you are in a wrong place, go search for some books, they don't have place in VNs as they have noting to do with Otaku culture.

 

And I don't know why are you calling us eroge fanbase, I myself hate H-scene as well as many others on this forum.

[Darklord Rooke]

Now I see where the problem lies, you my friend don't even know what a VNs are all about.

 

VNs are a story-telling medium and have little to do with content, artistic or storytelling styles, it is merely a method of delivering a story. Not even VNDB (which I tend to disagree with) limits their database to only anime-like stuff, which is why Cinders is included. They do include the phrase "typically includes anime like backgrounds" but that is merely an observation and not a limitation. 

 

It would be like saying "books should only contain *insert specific culture's stories here* because they invented them and that's what they're all about." "England was the first country to televise TV shows, all TV shows should focus on good British type stories, like mysteries and not detective crime."

 

And I don't know why are you calling us eroge fanbase, I myself hate H-scene as well as many others on this forum.

 

Roger. Sorry.

[Clephas]

VNs are a story-telling medium

This. 

[Kaguya]

Both are fine. They're just using the same method to show a story. There are several bad OELVNs and there's a huge amount of bad JVNs, just because there are many more JVNs out there. 

I tend to purposefully limit myself to the translated perspective, but I've read a lot of titles in jp too... You'll generally find higher quality in jp works. There are some really good VNs out there in japanese, where I've only found a few good OELVNs. 

 

That doesn't mean JVNs are better, though. They're just higher in number, so it's inevitable that'll happen. I will say your average VN has a high chance of being better than your average OELVN... But that's because a lot of OELVN writers are struggling with what to do and they decide to copy the JVN style, which doesn't really work out in english. 

 

Incidentally, I prefer ordinary novels over VNs. I've read many, many, many more books than I have VNs, and I never spend time with romance-only titles (anime romance is so, so, cringy and awful. It's like they're trying to spread the message that "true love" comes out of awkward small talk and super powers. That or never speaking a word and trying to act as bland as possible. Or treating everyone you know with contempt. Etc, etc, etc. In my completely objective, 100% law, honest-to-goodness opinion, anime romance should die in a fire.) 

 

Regardless, judging a VN quality by where in the world it was made is dumb. There are some cultural differences, but great stories can come from each side. And if it's not a great story, you should probably ignore it exists and just read a proper book. 

[OriginalRen]

Now I see where the problem lies, you my friend don't even know what a VNs are all about.

 

You see VNs are part of Otaku culture and Otaku culture is all about Anime and Anime-like stuff, If you want Russian fairy tales then you are in a wrong place, go search for some books, they don't have place in VNs as they have noting to do with Otaku culture.

 

And I don't know why are you calling us eroge fanbase, I myself hate H-scene as well as many others on this forum.

 

Actually, as someone who is living in Japan and has been to Akihabara many many times, otaku culture does not equate to anime. AKB48 is an idol group, and idol groups are a huge part of otaku culture, yet they have nothing to do with anime. In another example, vocaloid concerts are also a huge part of Japan's culture, yet they once again have nothing to do with anime.

[Wahfuu]

I don't really think that there is some absolute ultimate rule that demands that all OELVN's be shit or something. However, they really do not seem to attract a very talented audience to work on them. I'm sure that there's at least a few exceptions to this rule, obviously, but I can't say I've seen them. Katawa Shoujo is so popular by some miracle of the universe and yet I don't see a lick of good in it. At least not anymore. Maybe awhile ago I did.

But still, we can look at the english-translated scene for this. A lot of translations have really bad and overtly stiff english and really don't do the original work justice. Some may disagree, but I really feel that the well-translated games are few and far between. And even beyond that, we have but a fraction of the really amazing games that are avaliable if you know japanese. There's really not that much once you move through all the holy grails, even less if you only stick to good translated stuff. And even beyond that, quite simply japanese writing conventions and whatnot are very much different from english ones.

Basically my point is that I think that theres alot you can nitpick about when it comes to the circus that is the english eroge scene. And while I don't exactly see the quality in OELVN's, I can certainly see why someone wouldn't like what the english eroge scene has to offer.

(WILL CLEAN UP TYPOS AND CRAP LATER HAVENT SLEPT)
 

[Pabloc]

Oh, now that this is a separate thread, I guess I can go all-out.

 

First things first:

You see VNs are part of Otaku culture and Otaku culture is all about Anime and Anime-like stuff, If you want Russian fairy tales then you are in a wrong place, go search for some books, they don't have place in VNs as they have noting to do with Otaku culture.

[Lambda]

I enjoy both JVN and OELVN. OELVNs I've read tend to be shorter, which is great because my attention span is that of a gnat, I swear. There are also some fun ones that can take advantage of the fact that they're written in English first and foremost and that I can't read Japanese (would I have had as much fun with Pizz'Amore if it had been in a different language and then translated back...? Probably not). There are also a lot more OELVNs aimed at a female audience than there are translated JVNs.

 

The translated JVNs I've read tend to have the build up and the large, epic stories, though, and the fandom to share the hype with, which is actually important to me.

 

(Admittedly, this might say more about what I choose as a reader: if I can be guaranteed an alright time with a shorter length, then I'd go for that, in the case where both options don't bring money into it)