Visual Novel Writers You Hate?

[Mr. Meogii]

I don't think i've read enough visual novels to say that I hate a particular one, however, even if I did I don't think I would be able to say that I hate one. I value the good and the bad

[Rincchi]

I'm not sure what everyone hates about Yuuto Tonokawa, since I actually loved Kurugaya's route in Little Busters! and I did like Chihaya and Shizuru's routes in Rewrite (though I'll admit Chihaya's route was too Sakuya focused)

 

Least favorite writer is probably Romeo Tanaka, since I didn't enjoy what I read of Cross Channel. Rewrite was kind of lacking too.

[douggle]

Some of his other work is pretty good. I/O was pretty enjoyable, personally I loved Cross Channel. Regardless though the way I see it no point on vocalizing the hate for a writer, if I don't like a writers work, I simply won't read anything else from them

[fun2novel]

I do not have a writer I hate, probably due to me having read less than 20 (maybe 10) VN's so far.  However, as pointed out by someone on the vast realm of the internet(I think it was VLR or Ever17 board on GameFAQs), Kotaro Uchikoshi reuses his twists in his VN's. Anyone who has read both 

VN No. 1) Ever17

VN No. 2) Virtue's Last Reward

is probably having an "Eureka!" moment right now. Actually, it is to a degree that reading #2 of the VN's tagged above made me borderline unable to enjoy the #1. Hint: The #1 VN was also known and praised mostly for its true route and its twists.  (As a side note, if you have not read these VN's, I'd suggest you read #2 first, the twist is far more effective in that one.)

 

Do not get me wrong, I LOVE Uchikoshi (he opened an English Twitter account just for his Western fans, follows fan projects closely and is an overall great guy) but even he himself admits to this: He says that he did that because too small of his fan base would have read the #1 VN before reading #2. I hope that if ZE3 happens it does not include twists from his other games. Reusing twists is lazy, anticlimactic and annoying, even if it will come embedded with a bazillion new mindfucking turns.

 

That's an interesting point and I think that the #1 tagged vn should be read first, overall it's much better written and it came first anyway, lol.

 

As for Uchikoshi, I have read almost all his VNs and I love them all, but it is true that he is reusing twists. He focuses a lot of how to surprise the reader which probably why people like him. He is also a very nice person, really honest and truthful, wish more developers were like this.

[suikashoujo]

One of the main reasons I got into VNs was because I wanted to play Higurashi (the anime was pretty much my obsession at the time). But when I finally bought and started playing it, I never managed to get past the beginning of the second arc. The same think happened recently when I tried to play Umineko- I dropped it before I could even finish the first arc. I wouldn't say I COMPLETELY hate Ryukishi, because the stories he creates tend to be great. Lucia's route in Rewrite was easily the best one, even though I initially disliked her as a character. But I can't stand his writing style. It's not the translation that's the problem, it's the fact that there is way too much description even in scenes that don't really need it. It just feels unnecessarily dragged out, and it makes it hard to sit and read it for a long time.

Other than that though, I don't have any specific thoughts on writers. Unless it's a high-profile writer like Ryukishi or Jun Maeda, I sometimes don't ever find out who wrote a specific game.

[Pabloc]

Also, if you don't mind yaoi read Togainu no Chi, it's by Urobuchi too.

Except it was written by Fuchii Kabura and Urobuchi Gen didn't have anything do do with it.

Also, I have read it already. Good stuff, even though it's BL.

 

@Palas

I definitely wouldn't go as far as saying that unless you have read the original work, you cannot evaluate the writer at all. Like you said, you can judge many aspects of writing even in a translated work. But, in the end, your evaluation will be always incomplete (regardless of the medium). How incomplete - that depends on the TL-quality a lot.

In the end, what you are reading is translator's writing, not the original one. And an incompetent translator can easily turn a beautifully written prose into a poorly written crap. KonoSora is written rather well (the only flaw I found so far is an overly lengthy common route and maybe a bit too much infodumping), but MoeNovel's version is a completely unreadable garbage and an insult to literature in general. After reading such hack job, you can't evaluate anything. Sure, that was an extreme example, but good translations among VNs are actually pretty rare (due to differences between ENG and JP, if nothing else).

 

That aside, mentioning machine translators in the thread about evaluating writing totally made my day. It's so utterly ludicrous, I'll keep laughing at it for a week. XD

[Clephas]

lol... be careful, you are supposed to be talking about what you hate, not derailing the topic with writer suggestions.

[fun2novel]

Pabloc, are you sure it wasn't Urobuchi? Because it really felt like him and I remember reading somewhere that he was the scenario writer on Togainu no Chi. Maybe Fuchii Kabura wrote the h-scenes?

[Mr Poltroon]

Funny thing. Everytime I drop a visual novel because I found it too boring, when I go and check the writer, it's always the same one, Romeo Tanaka.

I guess I'm too stupid to understand his stories? I dunno, but I don't like him.

[InvertMouse]

Funny thing. Everytime I drop a visual novel because I found it too boring, when I go and check the writer, it's always the same one, Romeo Tanaka.

I guess I'm too stupid to understand his stories? I dunno, but I don't like him.

 

There is never a need to think you are too stupid ! Not to say it is the case with Romeo, but if I read something that is convoluted, before I consider I might be too dumb for it, I would sooner suspect the writer is being too visible and trying to impress, when in fact she is only exposing her insecurities.

 

A lot of folks seem to mention hating the fact that certain writers use too much description. That is no doubt valid for a lot, possibly even most, VNs out there. What could they do, though? Many VNs seem to boast how long and how many words it contains (this will be a 80,000 word epic). If a game is 50 hours long, to say it has zero padding is almost certainly a lie. Yet, if writers cut to the chase, people will complain that the game is too short and not worth the price. It is a difficult situation.

[sanahtlig]

A lot of folks seem to mention hating the fact that certain writers use too much description. That is no doubt valid for a lot, possibly even most, VNs out there. What could they do, though? Many VNs seem to boast how long and how many words it contains (this will be a 80,000 word epic). If a game is 50 hours long, to say it has zero padding is almost certainly a lie. Yet, if writers cut to the chase, people will complain that the game is too short and not worth the price. It is a difficult situation.

More content, less fluff.  I typically evaluate a VN on two scales: quality and value (determined in part by length).  Padding decreases quality and raises value to some extent.  But if quality drops below a certain threshold, value becomes meaningless.  Tighter writing with more content is always better than padded writing with less content.

 

Padding could be defined in many ways.  I'd define it as using grossly more words than needed to convey a given idea.  The anime equivalent is spending an entire 25-min episode depicting a few minutes of time in the fictional world (think Dragonball Z).  In essay terms, you could write an essay that touches all points in 3 paragraphs, or a longwinded rant that spans 5 pages--all containing the same basic amount of content, condensed to fit in 3 paragraphs or drawn out to fit the 5-page target.  We're all guilty of the latter, because that's how English class taught us how to write.  And so are VN writers, because they're paid by the word.

 

My recommendation to aspiring fiction writers is to plot out each scene and use the minimum number of words necessary to fully realize each scene.  Make sure every scene tells us something new about the characters and world, and every word serves a purpose.

 

 

 

That aside, mentioning machine translators in the thread about evaluating writing totally made my day. It's so utterly ludicrous, I'll keep laughing at it for a week. XD

If only baseless dismissals were an effective way to demonstrate a point.  Maybe if I put this into Google and hit EN -> JP the point would come through?

[Clephas]

tbh, I don't understand people who don't enjoy convoluted writing styles... for me, the more convoluted the writing is, the more fun it is wrap my brain around it... probably because I was a reader long before I became an otaku.  Of course, needless and endless description of everyday scenes is annoying as hell, but in an action vn, those descriptions are the meat of the game.  Also, without a detailed description of major events, VN stories become shallower and shallower (see: moege) and thus boring. 

[sanahtlig]

I find many moege boring for exactly the reason that nothing happens and there's all this chatter (read: filler) that doesn't go anywhere.  There's nothing wrong with description that tells you something new, presents insights, and generally brings the world alive.  The problem is unfocused rambling that doesn't serve a purpose in the story.  That can just as easily be dialogue as description--and in VNs, it's often dialgoue IMO.

[fun2novel]

The longer a VN is the more there is a chance it's going to have a lot of filler, the more filler the less value it will give its readers. A long VN with a tightly written plot will still have some filler but it balances it with a lot of important scenes and lines of text so it doesn't lose in value.

 

I think it is also important to say that some filler is filler only if you look at it that way, for another person with a different perspective will not see it as filler.

 

I already mentioned Looseboy and how everything feels like he's buying time. Another example, Aoishiro, everything seemed to take so long I could barely read more than an hour (combine that with a hard to read translation and it's even worse.)

 

And one more example, Muv-Luv Alternative, ok, so the reader already went through dozens of hours in Extra and dozens in Unlimited and now in Alternative not only is every dialogue scene takes forever, we have the protagonist repeats to himself two or three times after every single line of dialogue, over and over the same thing again and again, you tell me if this was filler or not because I sure felt like I don't care about the story anymore and just wanted this torture to stop.

 

Although I will admit I was way overhyped for MLA so that didn't help either.

[InvertMouse]

tbh, I don't understand people who don't enjoy convoluted writing styles... for me, the more convoluted the writing is, the more fun it is wrap my brain around it... probably because I was a reader long before I became an otaku.  Of course, needless and endless description of everyday scenes is annoying as hell, but in an action vn, those descriptions are the meat of the game.  Also, without a detailed description of major events, VN stories become shallower and shallower (see: moege) and thus boring. 

 

Yeah, it is very subjective . I guess there is a difference between complex and convoluted writing, and it is always a subjective discussion. There are definitely times when I read a piece and go, "Oh, interesting. Let me see what this is about." Other times, the reaction is, "What are you doing mate..." I might want to get all cocky and say I can sense when someone is just desperately trying to impress with her writing. Of course not, though. That is up to the individual to decide.

 

It is great to see many of you folks want filler free storytelling. Now, consider a game that you will be paying for. Would we then steer toward wanting the game to be long before anything else? If we are able to maintain that quality over quantity issue, and if there were more readers like you guys, then video games would be heading in a great direction.

[Mr Poltroon]

And one more example, Muv-Luv Alternative, ok, so the reader already went through dozens of hours in Extra and dozens in Unlimited and now in Alternative not only is every dialogue scene takes forever, we have the protagonist repeats to himself two or three times after every single line of dialogue, over and over the same thing again and again, you tell me if this was filler or not because I sure felt like I don't care about the story anymore and just wanted this torture to stop.

What's this?! Although I totally agree with you, it's simply blasphemy to just come out and critique that game. Bad, very bad. 

Can't you see that's the besteste thing in the universe other than sausages?

[Zakamutt]

The problem with short VNs is that it takes a better writer to make you build the kind of strong conenctions to characters you get in a long common route. In, say, Little Busters, I strongly disliked Haruka as first but eventually had a mild liking of her once the common route was ending. That's not to say LB isn't bloated. I do like comedy sections, however, so it's not as much of a problem for me.

[fun2novel]

Can't you see that's the besteste thing in the universe other than sausages?

 

Foshizzle Yo! You sir, get a sausage on a cookie.

[Yeah Way]

Whoever wrote Emi's route in "Katawa Shoujo" and made it so that trying to stay healthy locked one onto her route. u.u

[Pabloc]

Pabloc, are you sure it wasn't Urobuchi? Because it really felt like him and I remember reading somewhere that he was the scenario writer on Togainu no Chi. Maybe Fuchii Kabura wrote the h-scenes?

Fuchii Kabura is the main writer from Nitro+ Chiral, and is definitely the main writer in Togainu no Chi.

Urobuchi was the main writer in Saya, Phantom, Kikokugai, Django, Viedogonia and Jouka no Monshou. I can't access EGS at the moment, so I can't check where else he was involved, but I never heard that he worked on any of the Nitro+Chiral titles.

 

As for convoluted writing styles - I'm definitely with Celphas on this one. It takes quite a lot of skill to write long, complicated scenes, filled with detailed descriptions, without making them feel dragged out or even nonsensical. I don't like lengthy, boring BS as much as the next guy. But a well done, wordy, flowery prose is what automatically makes me value the writer more.

 

If only baseless dismissals were an effective way to demonstrate a point.  Maybe if I put this into Google and hit EN -> JP the point would come through?

You are saying that you base your opinions about writers on machine translators' gibberish that doesn't even resemble anything that could be called "writing". There are no points to be made here. It's just funny.

[Wahfuu]

I see this statement a lot, and I disagree.  I've played innumerable games via machine translation (the worst possible corruption of the original) and I can easily distinguish generic fluff and uninspired filler from tightly written information-filled communication.  Good VN story primarily comes from good scenario design, interesting characters and setting, and the ability to communicate situations and ideas clearly and succinctly.  These elements come across even with machine translation.  Comedy does require a developed writing style (and coincidentally doesn't machine translate worth a damn), but I'm not typically a fan of games in the comedy genre anyway.

 

Style is really the only element that gets lost in translation.  But writing style is actually only one of several elements that make a story enjoyable--and it's not even necessarily the most important one.

This is ridiculous, I'm sorry to say.

It's not just style that gets lost; numerous and numerous plot details are hilariously ruined and outright wrong. I've seen people try, I tried waayyy years ago when I was only reading things in english and was desperate, and sorry, most of it is garbled nonsense. Hell, look at Hoshimemo's TL. It's plot is completely fucked in the translation to the point where most people who've read it in english don't really understand it at all, and it's...well, pretty bad, but it at least has structure. MTL's often misgive, mistranslate, and are just so laughably bad for japanese that I honestly don't know how people get through whole games like it.

Not only that, you can probably tell when something is inspired and are giving information, but you can't see the cleverness in the text or really get any of the emotion/intended effect in long passages like in Hino's stuff (Ruitomo, Hello Lady) that actually carry messages and pretty deep themes. Any text that has any sort of identity to it is going to get butchered. Of course, this isn't even mentioning wordplay and comedy that frequents eroge, though I guess you already said you don't care for that.

Sorry, but I don't really consider reading the barebones of a plot so heavily mangled and garbled by MTL's counts as really reading the authors work.

 

[fun2novel]

Pabloc, have you played all the Nitro+Chiral games? Each of them has a very different style and even the writing style seems very different from game to game too. Not that I read much of these.

[Pabloc]

Pabloc, have you played all the Nitro+Chiral games? Each of them has a very different style and even the writing style seems very different from game to game too. Not that I read much of these.

I'm not exactly a big fan of BL, so no. I will probably check out some of them though. Someday. Maybe.

[sanahtlig]

It's not just style that gets lost; numerous and numerous plot details are hilariously ruined and outright wrong. I've seen people try, I tried waayyy years ago when I was only reading things in english and was desperate, and sorry, most of it is garbled nonsense. Hell, look at Hoshimemo's TL. It's plot is completely fucked in the translation to the point where most people who've read it in english don't really understand it at all, and it's...well, pretty bad, but it at least has structure. MTL's often misgive, mistranslate, and are just so laughably bad for japanese that I honestly don't know how people get through whole games like it.

I think what outsiders looking in fail to realize is that the ability to interpret machine translation is a complex acquired skill (that I should add has applications outside of interpreting machine translation).  Interpreting machine translation actively engages the reader, much like solving a puzzle.  Just because the translation is wrong, doesn't mean it imparts no information or that the reader will get the wrong idea.  Reading machine translation involves critical thinking--as you read you're constantly evaluating the translation and comparing it with what you already know (the context, which is always missing from the translation).  You add the coherent parts to your conceptual web of the situation, and you discard the incoherent parts.  Your understanding of and thus your ability to enjoy the work will correlate with how good you are at solving the puzzles.

 

This may sound odd, but I tend to enjoy games I play in Japanese more than ones I play in English.  While the broader selection is certainly a factor, I think I actually enjoy the puzzle solving in some cases.  Writing that might be rather dull in English can be more interesting when you layer some puzzle solving on top of it.

 

 

Not only that, you can probably tell when something is inspired and are giving information, but you can't see the cleverness in the text or really get any of the emotion/intended effect in long passages like in Hino's stuff (Ruitomo, Hello Lady) that actually carry messages and pretty deep themes. Any text that has any sort of identity to it is going to get butchered. Of course, this isn't even mentioning wordplay and comedy that frequents eroge, though I guess you already said you don't care for that.

Can't really argue with this.  Yes, these are undoubtedly elements that are lost.  The relative importance of these elements in a given title will determine the extent of loss.  I play mostly gameplay VNs set in high fantasy settings.  I'm more concerned with plot, setting, ideas--objective information--than subjective subtleties in the writing.

[Pabloc]

@Sanahtlig

So you like taking random words that are largely unrelated to the VN script, and piecing them together into some kind of a story? Well, that's cool, nothing wrong with that.

Just don't claim you can evaluate writers in any way. To do that, you have to actually read what they have written, not play puzzle games.