Your Worst VN Experience

[Boon]

But still Saber , in my view, had more than needed attention in fate route, about how she fought bravely for her country, and was betrayed later making her doubt her ways and think that any other king would have been better. AKA her back story , it had a lot of attention. Saber's own personality even had got attention so I think you are wrong saying that they didn't concentrate on her in fate route and she didn't get much character development! You are really mistaken there!

 

While that is true, IMO, what you've just said is a very mistaken common misconception. All those things you mentioned in the Fate route, they felt like 'telling' rather than 'showing.' I'm not sure if you are familiar with the storytelling techniques of 'showing' and 'telling', but 'showing' is always better than 'telling,' in the sense that you don't 'tell' your audience about your character, you show them what your character is like through her actions and her interactions with the world and people around her. There wasn't much in the sense of 'showing'. Most of her actions in Fate route had little to do with her past or having any closure to the betrayal of her own people. Most of her actions didn't reflect her beliefs about 'sacrificing people for the greater good,' something she was forced to do for her country. It would have been nice to see if she would do the same thing again in present time if given the same situation, not to mention that it might have given her a much better closure.

 

That's the reason why people never really felt as connected to Saber in Fate route as they did with the other heroines in the other routes. 'Telling' won't really connect your audience on an emotional level as effectively as 'showing,' because actions speak louder than words, and through such actions, we could have at least seen Saber's growth as a person from her time as Arturia to her time as Saber the Servant. Unfortunately, most of her actions were wasted on protecting Shirou from his whiny-ass self. In hindsight, this is really just Nasu's shoddy writing at work, considering that the Fate route was really just the prototype for the real meat of the story, UBW and HF.

 

 

WHAT MADE ME HATE SABER WERE HER FANS..... geez. They come with half-assed excuses to love her ..... I for one liked her for one time but I felt so much frustration because of her back story but Sakura made me forget everything about that (Sakura's the worst heroine imo)

 

Well, the same to you then. What made me hate Saber-haters (and just about any shipper-hater, tbh) is their irrational hatred for a character and their equally irrational reasons for hating her. I've came up with more than good enough reasons for justifying my liking for her, yet all I could see from you is frothing and barking because you dislike a fictional character.

 

I get that mindless fanboys can be annoying to some people (though I hardly see the problem with people being overly passionate about the things they love), but at least have the decency to see that some of us actually like her for legitimate reasons.

[hsmsful]

While that is true, IMO, what you've just said is a very mistaken common misconception. All those things you mentioned in the Fate route, they felt like 'telling' rather than 'showing.' I'm not sure if you are familiar with the storytelling techniques of 'showing' and 'telling', but 'showing' is always better than 'telling,' in the sense that you don't 'tell' your audience about your character, you show them what your character is like through her actions and her interactions with the world and people around her. There wasn't much in the sense of 'showing'. Most of her actions in Fate route had little to do with her past or having any closure to the betrayal of her own people. Most of her actions didn't reflect her beliefs about 'sacrificing people for the greater good,' something she was forced to do for her country. It would have been nice to see if she would do the same thing again in present time if given the same situation, not to mention that it might have given her a much better closure.

 

That's the reason why people never really felt as connected to Saber in Fate route as they did with the other heroines in the other routes. 'Telling' won't really connect your audience on an emotional level as effectively as 'showing,' because actions speak louder than words, and through such actions, we could have at least seen Saber's growth as a person from her time as Arturia to her time as Saber the Servant. Unfortunately, most of her actions were wasted on protecting Shirou from his whiny-ass self. In hindsight, this is really just Nasu's shoddy writing at work, considering that the Fate route was really just the prototype for the real meat of the story, UBW and HF.

 

 

 

Well, the same to you then. What made me hate Saber-haters (and just about any shipper-hater, tbh) is their irrational hatred for a character and their equally irrational reasons for hating her. I've came up with more than good enough reasons for justifying my liking for her, yet all I could see from you is frothing and barking because you dislike a fictional character.

 

I get that mindless fanboys can be annoying to some people (though I hardly see the problem with people being overly passionate about the things they love), but at least have the decency to see that some of us actually like her for legitimate reasons.

LOL if I had to give a reason why I hate Saber, it would be because she frustrates me as much as Shirou does..... they are both idiots imo. Shitou's idealism can make me hate the whole VN especially they concentrated on it a lot in Fate route, then came back to concentrate on it more and more in ubw. And I know what you mean by telling and showing and actually you will surprised but I was more connected to Saber and her back ground than Sakura and Rin. When I said she frustrates me, I mean I would like to go into the game and slap her ..... then slap her again XD for her mentality state..... most people would hate who have betrayed them like Archer did, right? No she won't hate them .... she would hate herself saying that she shouldn't have become a king which is really frustrating imo.

 

Anyways when I said fate route was written in a bad way, I wasn't thinking about Saber at all,

I was thinking about the convenient breakthrough many times, especially how they beat Berserker. That was really annoying and so convenient so he just saw it in his dreams and then he manifested it and it was able to steal all the remaining lives of Berserker? Even Gilgamesh had to strike him 11 or 12 times with using noble phantasm each time but the manifested sword with Saber's help took all these lives? maybe I was the one who misunderstood what happened

but I actually liked the ending and was really touched by her face after she returns to that hill and dies later

[Boon]

LOL if I had to give a reason why I hate Saber, it would be because she frustrates me as much as Shirou does..... they are both idiots imo. Shitou's idealism can make me hate the whole VN especially they concentrated on it a lot in Fate route, then came back to concentrate on it more and more in ubw.

 

Implying that idealism and stupidity are not mutually exclusive. I see we're off to a great start in the debate.

 

If anything, I respect Saber solely because of her hardened idealism. Not many people have the willpower and tolerance to hold true to an oath the way she did, and your cynical excuses hardly qualify her as an idiot.

 

And I know what you mean by telling and showing and actually you will surprised but I was more connected to Saber and her back ground than Sakura and Rin. When I said she frustrates me, I mean I would like to go into the game and slap her ..... then slap her again XD for her mentality state..... most people would hate who have betrayed them like Archer did, right? No she won't hate them .... she would hate herself saying that she shouldn't have become a king which is really frustrating imo.

 

I understand what you're saying. But know that many people over the world suffers from the same psychological barriers that keep them shackled to an oath, a promise, or an aspiration, if not out of sheer determination, it's out of their inability to receive proper closure on their traumatic past.

 

That said, Saber is not any different. It's easily understandable why she would blame herself, as most guilt-ridden people do, which is why I honestly wished she had expressed her guilt through her actions in Fate route to better let us understand her side of the story, her perspectives, what she plans to do with such guilt, etc, etc. That's what I meant by 'showing' over 'telling.' Showing her development as a character through the kind of actions she'd take, perhaps by straying away from her oath by sacrificing a few people? That kind of stuff.

 

Though I could understand somewhat why you're frustrated, I could hardly say I share the same frustration. Her solemn oath, while old-fashioned, is something I would like to see today in our modern world full of grey-areas and hypocrisy.

 

Anyways when I said fate route was written in a bad way, I wasn't thinking about Saber at all,

I was thinking about the convenient breakthrough many times, especially how they beat Berserker. That was really annoying and so convenient so he just saw it in his dreams and then he manifested it and it was able to steal all the remaining lives of Berserker? Even Gilgamesh had to strike him 11 or 12 times with using noble phantasm each time but the manifested sword with Saber's help took all these lives? maybe I was the one who misunderstood what happened

 

He didn't just 'see it in his dreams.' IIRC, he projected the same sword from his mind. So yes, it's essentially something related to 'the power of imagination,' which is why I share your irritation of Nasu's convenient plot-device as well. Nasu's writing has always been a bit wonky in F/SN (I mean, rape-worms?), but I'm sure someone more devoted to the VN could explain away all these little technicalities with his vast knowledge of the lore and whatnot. Honestly, I couldn't be bothered with the lore and magic spells; I'm more interested in the characters.

 

You gotta admit though, Shirou's defeat of Berserker together with Saber, as implausible as it might be, was rather entertaining and satisfying in its own way. And if something is entertaining, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief a little bit.

 

but I actually liked the ending and was really touched by her face after she returns to that hill and dies later

 

As do I, though Saber's ending was only 'meh, it's okay' to me, due to the problems I stated with her character development. Also, the blatant cash-in of the Realta Nua 'Extended Ending' is hardly appreciated by me. If anything, it only gives the Saber-haters ammunition to further the irrational scandal that Saber's only decent trait is being Type-Moon's cash-cow.

[hsmsful]

Implying that idealism and stupidity are not mutually exclusive. I see we're off to a great start in the debate.

 

If anything, I respect Saber solely because of her hardened idealism. Not many people have the willpower and tolerance to hold true to an oath the way she did, and your cynical excuses hardly qualify her as an idiot.

 

 

I understand what you're saying. But know that many people over the world suffers from the same psychological barriers that keep them shackled to an oath, a promise, or an aspiration, if not out of sheer determination, it's out of their inability to receive proper closure on their traumatic past.

 

That said, Saber is not any different. It's easily understandable why she would blame herself, as most guilt-ridden people do, which is why I honestly wished she had expressed her guilt through her actions in Fate route to better let us understand her side of the story, her perspectives, what she plans to do with such guilt, etc, etc. That's what I meant by 'showing' over 'telling.' Showing her development as a character through the kind of actions she'd take, perhaps by straying away from her oath by sacrificing a few people? That kind of stuff.

 

Though I could understand somewhat why you're frustrated, I could hardly say I share the same frustration. Her solemn oath, while old-fashioned, is something I would like to see today in our modern world full of grey-areas and hypocrisy.

 

 

He didn't just 'see it in his dreams.' IIRC, he projected the same sword from his mind. So yes, it's essentially something related to 'the power of imagination,' which is why I share your irritation of Nasu's convenient plot-device as well. Nasu's writing has always been a bit wonky in F/SN (I mean, rape-worms?), but I'm sure someone more devoted to the VN could explain away all these little technicalities with his vast knowledge of the lore and whatnot. Honestly, I couldn't be bothered with the lore and magic spells; I'm more interested in the characters.

 

You gotta admit though, Shirou's defeat of Berserker together with Saber, as implausible as it might be, was rather entertaining and satisfying in its own way. And if something is entertaining, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief a little bit.

 

 

As do I, though Saber's ending was only 'meh, it's okay' to me, due to the problems I stated with her character development. Also, the blatant cash-in of the Realta Nua 'Extended Ending' is hardly appreciated by me. If anything, it only gives the Saber-haters ammunition to further the irrational scandal that Saber's only decent trait is being Type-Moon's cash-cow.

I think we are spamming this topic now ._.

Anyways no Berserker vs Saber, Shirou and Rin was the least enjoyable battle on my behalf .... Anyways I don't really respect people who are devoted to their ideals or oaths. Yeah it is right , but it is called idiocy. For me it is like staying the truth whenever the situation is, it is not always for the best ..... so doing it is idiocy. Same here, Saber thinks that she couldn't fulfill her oath, she broke her ideals and sacrificed people for the sake of the country but no good came out of this as in her view, the country became worse. She couldn't fulfill her duty, that's understandable. But it wasn't her fault so why is she feeling that she was the guilty one? The people around here were the guilty ones, those who betrayed her are the guilty ones, they are the obstructions she couldn't overcome and they are the reason who stopped her from fulfilling her oath. So she shouldn't be so devoted to it. She threw everything away for her country (ideals, her growth, her life as a woman ... etc.) and it is adorable in its own way. However, she destroys all these good points by just saying she was wrong? another king would have been more worthy and would have saved the country? For me this feels so idiotic and no benefit would come out of it. In fact she threw away her life again and became a heroic spirit just to win the holy grail to redo the past........

[Boon]

I could say the same for Archer seeking revenge. I could say the same for Sakura feeling the need to restrain herself from hurting people. I could very well say the same for Shirou, who sacrificed everyone's lives for the sake of one (oh wait, doesn't that sound kinds similar to Saber's situation despite Shirou's sacrifice being presented in HF instead of Fate? Hm...) It's a little thing called 'emotions' and 'feelings,' nothing your 'pragmatic' thinking could resolve by explaining it away with hard cold logic. It's very well the same thing as scolding a wounded child, calling him stupid for crying.

However, I would hardly compare Saber to a wounded child. If anything, she didn't 'yield to her feelings' like the rest of the cast did, she threw away her feelings for the determination to accomplish a sole aspiration. That's something admirable. Even if you yourself, hsmsful, can't comprehend the value of such things in your mind, I'm pretty sure many people out there knows what I'm talking about. Stop putting idealism together with stupidity. Just because an ideal clashes with your cynical beliefs doesn't make it idiotic or stupid. More info on intelligent idealism at "Good Is Not Dumb."

That said, you're correct. We're spamming the thread, but I couldn't very well leave things hanging the way they are in this thread by having your retort being the final retort in this little debate, now could I? If you want to continue this discussion, refrain from replying to this post any further and continue our discussion through a PM. Otherwise, expect a similar reply from me.

[starkweather]

yandere probably. shitty art, no voice acting, and shitty characters. the game broke about 30 mins into it and i couldn't be bothered to try and fix it.

[AceAttorney]

Narcissu. It essentially tries to excuse the fact that it's an empty story by claiming that its "experimental" and "minimalistic." Not to mention the fact that the messages of the story are completely conflicting and make little sense.

 

Just when the girl finds a reason to live (becoming friends, maybe more, with the protag) she decides to off herself? What?

 

Admittedly, I did feel a little emotional at the end initially, but after stepping back and reflecting on what I had just read, I can't help but feel it was a waste of time.

[crunchytaco]

Well it makes me pretty sad that F/SN's was included in this, and my Saber is hated so much. I've personally never discussed her with any fans so I don't know what "Saberfags" are like.

 
It was my first VN and Saber was my first VN favorite. I wasn't personally attracted to her looks. I thought her whole character design from her blonde hair to her goth outfit was terrible straight off. There's a weird obsession with western Victorian/Goth culture in Japan. But her personality was amazing. She always carried a big stick but talked with that firm but gentle voice. "Shiro, I'm hungry." "Shiro, we should get going." "Shiro?" "Shiro!" I know I can always rely on her being by my side unless she gets possessed by an angry, rejected spirit. 

 

True she doesn't have any of the excitement of a Yandere, or the hot and cold teasings of a Tsundere (Though I think her bantering with Shirou in UBW and HFs were really cute.) But you know what they say, girls like bad boys when they're young but marry a nice guy when they're older. I think that applies in reverse to guys as well. 

 

-------------------------------------------

 

My worst experience with a VN was probably My Girlfriend is the President. Now that's stupid! Oh and Muv Luv: Lacrosse. 

[Boon]

I've personally never discussed her with any fans so I don't know what "Saberfags" are like.

Derogatory term used by Saber-haters, particularly in 4chan, to describe Saber fans who only like her based on her looks or some other superficial reason. Basically, they just aren't happy that Saber's overrated. Personally, I only used the term because I'm rather annoyed that people hyped her up for all the wrong reasons, instead of properly defending her personality like you and I did.

 

 

True she doesn't have any of the excitement of a Yandere, or the hot and cold teasings of a Tsundere (Though I think her bantering with Shirou in UBW and HFs were really cute.) But you know what they say, girls like bad boys when they're young but marry a nice guy when they're older. I think that applies in reverse to guys as well.

I think people are either more cynical or more spoiled nowadays. Idealistic characters are treated as shallow or stupid, while cynical badasses are treated as 'heroic supremes.' So it was hardly surprising to me that people called her 'blend and boring,' when those naysayers are the ones who are blend and boring...

 

But her personality was amazing. She always carried a big stick but talked with that firm but gentle voice. "Shiro, I'm hungry." "Shiro, we should get going." "Shiro?" "Shiro!" I know I can always rely on her being by my side unless she gets possessed by an angry, rejected spirit.

That's kinda what I really love about her as well, her stoicism. Despite whatever hurdles that come her way, she stood against them like a badass heroine. That's what I love with my women. 

[crunchytaco]

Derogatory term used by Saber-haters, particularly in 4chan, to describe Saber fans who only like her based on her looks or some other superficial reason. Basically, they just aren't happy that Saber's overrated. Personally, I only used the term because I'm rather annoyed that people hyped her up for all the wrong reasons, instead of properly defending her personality like you and I did.

 

 

I think people are either more cynical or more spoiled nowadays. Idealistic characters are treated as shallow or stupid, while cynical badasses are treated as 'heroic supremes.' So it was hardly surprising to me that people called her 'blend and boring,' when those naysayers are the ones who are blend and boring...

 

That's kinda what I really love about her as well, her stoicism. Despite whatever hurdles that come her way, she stood against them like a badass heroine. That's what I love with my women. 

 

We live in tough economic times. It makes anyone cynical. The cynics need heroes like Batman and Kiritsugi to stand up for them . 

 

The treatment of Saber in fate/zero was especially bad for us and a win for cynics everywhere. I cringed in embarrassment each time she lost an argument to Kiritsugi (and practically everyone). We all know Kiritsugi and her are from the same idealistic stock though (heck their life examples were the same.) Kiritsugi's broken dreams at the end of the series had cynics rejoicing everywhere... if they weren't so hardened by cynicism by then.

[Boon]

The treatment of Saber in fate/zero was especially bad for us and a win for cynics everywhere.

I figured it would've went something like that. Ironically, I was cynical about Saber's chances for proper development in Fate/Zero, or at least, chances to 'shine' as a character. Looks like my hunch was right.

[hsmsful]

For the last thing, it is not that people nowadays think idealistic people are idiots...... At least for me, I think that it is harder for you and the people around you to be idealistic. Especially that most idealists tend not to be "realists" and most of all they never reach the ideal and by the end of their lives "they get betrayed by the ideal"

Yes they keep praising the ideal like the idealists they are but we all know they are filled with regret and pain due to being idealists. If I brought a small innocent child and told him that , he would choose not to be an idealist.

I for one hated that I tended to be an idealist and love idealists. The whole thing felt a fantasy and a superficial thing that it seems idiotic and "a waste of a lifetime" to become an idealist.

And by far, I have to say that Saber was not a real idealist, she gave up on her idealists unlike for example Shirou kept on fighting for his ideal which is shown clearly in ubw till he was betrayed by his ideal. Saber however gave up on them for the better of the country and regretted it later that she became so desperate as to become a heroic spirit to redo the past. Anyways what I find idiotic is following a fantasy thing which can never be achieved. In other words, I was on Archer's side and was sad when he gave in to Shirou.

[DarksideLawliet]

The heavy-cut "If my heart had wings". Too much eye boobs.

[Boon]

Yes they keep praising the ideal like the idealists they are but we all know they are filled with regret and pain due to being idealists. If I brought a small innocent child and told him that , he would choose not to be an idealist.

I for one hated that I tended to be an idealist and love idealists. The whole thing felt a fantasy and a superficial thing that it seems idiotic and "a waste of a lifetime" to become an idealist.

'Waste of time' is subjective and relative. Some people find moe and slice of life to be a waste of time, yet 80% of the anime today are filled with that. There's nothing 'wasting' with holding true to a belief you strongly have faith in, especially when such beliefs involve helping people. Whether if following a fantasy is wrong or not is, again, subjective to your beliefs, whether you believe that being pragmatic and realistic about life is the best way to go. The same could be said for being religious being wrong or not. 'Worshipping a non-existing god' is also not realistic, but I wouldn't exactly say it's a 'waste of time' either.

 

 

And by far, I have to say that Saber was not a real idealist, she gave up on her idealists unlike for example Shirou kept on fighting for his ideal which is shown clearly in ubw till he was betrayed by his ideal. Saber however gave up on them for the better of the country and regretted it later that she became so desperate as to become a heroic spirit to redo the past.

True, but I'd still say she's an idealist, but in a different way than the standard idealist like Shirou, making her all the more unique. She didn't 'give up' on anything. If she had given up, she wouldn't have bothered to pursue her wishes to make her country idealistically better by 'redoing everything.' She probably had the idea of using the Holy Grail to find the 'perfect king' or something to replace her. 

 

Anyway, we're doing it again. Take it to PM if you wanna continue this discussion.

[Satsuki]

Worst VN exp?

I downloaded Sugar's Delight without knowing that it's a nothing-but-H yuri ( I was still a newbie back then ) and played it in the class. 

[hsmsful]

'Waste of time' is subjective and relative. Some people find moe and slice of life to be a waste of time, yet 80% of the anime today are filled with that. There's nothing 'wasting' with holding true to a belief you strongly have faith in, especially when such beliefs involve helping people. Whether if following a fantasy is wrong or not is, again, subjective to your beliefs, whether you believe that being pragmatic and realistic about life is the best way to go. The same could be said for being religious being wrong or not. 'Worshipping a non-existing god' is also not realistic, but I wouldn't exactly say it's a 'waste of time' either.

 

 

True, but I'd still say she's an idealist, but in a different way than the standard idealist like Shirou, making her all the more unique. She didn't 'give up' on anything. If she had given up, she wouldn't have bothered to pursue her wishes to make her country idealistically better by 'redoing everything.' She probably had the idea of using the Holy Grail to find the 'perfect king' or something to replace her. 

 

Anyway, we're doing it again. Take it to PM if you wanna continue this discussion.

You are right but I said for the last time and anyways, neither of our ways of thinking is going to change.

I just wanted to say my point of view more clearly.

[AMMSY]

Kamidori Alchemy Meister for me. I hated how much I was addicted to this game, I wanted to stop because of it's weak and kinda boring plot but my hardcore gamer instincts just won't let up, I had to complete it T.T it took so many hours >.<"

[crunchytaco]

Michiru is equaling my experience with Muv Luv: Lacrosse right now. After the hilarious english lesson with her and Makina, it's been getting repetitiously dragged out with her being the butt of everyone's jokes every single day. Thus I'm not seeing my other girls getting any attention and character development.

[Boon]

Michiru is equaling my experience with Muv Luv: Lacrosse right now. After the hilarious english lesson with her and Makina, it's been getting repetitiously dragged out with her being the butt of everyone's jokes every single day. Thus I'm not seeing my other girls getting any attention and character development.

I hate it when anime does that with joke characters, and I especially hate it here because her being a joke idiot character is related to her mental condition, so watching her being made everyone's clown is even more painful to watch.

 

Thank God for her good end being transferred to the sequel. That's the only saving grace of her character. Her tsundere moments in Makina's route are so annoying even I found it jarring.

[Heizei_koukousei]

I started playing visual novels with Sono Hanabira but I just cant finish the series. And I cant seem to appreciate the game.

I also find that all the games kind of glitch, they will close for a second and reappear. And if the game is in the middle of dialogue when that occurs it just cuts off. No problem finishing the game once i get used to that issue though.

[Hooves]

Worst VN exp?

I downloaded Sugar's Delight without knowing that it's a nothing-but-H yuri ( I was still a newbie back then ) and played it in the class. 

Oh I have to admit that's a pretty horrible experience.

[Funnerific]

I also find that all the games kind of glitch, they will close for a second and reappear. And if the game is in the middle of dialogue when that occurs it just cuts off. No problem finishing the game once i get used to that issue though.

All the games from that developer seem to have this issue and many people are experiencing it. You have to set Windows XP compatibility to the .exe file

[Zykiel]

I cannot get into Yandere...ever it completly botchs the execution alongside the terrible (imo) style it has. So in short hoped for more, got way less than expected.

[DimDito]

Rewrite. I dropped it because 3 of 5 heroine routes were unbearable. And no, enough of your sorry little "oh it'll pick up in Terra and Moon~. It'll be worth it~!" Stop lying to yourself, nothing is worth going through those astoundingly tedious routes.

[douggle]

Probably Lacrosse, or anything outside of Setsuna's routes in School Days.