Plot vs Writing

[Funnerific]

A recent argument in another thread here got me thinking: which one is more important? I've asked around, and it appears that the plot is more important for most people, but I can't share that preference.

I can enjoy even a low-plot or plotless VN with good writing much more than anything with bad writing. Can't say about other forms of media as that's a little out of my scope.

It would take me forever to list the popular VNs which, in my opinion, had shit writing, but here's a few examples:

Muv-Luv Alternative (see this for issues)

Sakura, Sakimashita (intrusive repetetive generic comedy with overused boring running gags) - I'll concede, it's not really a popular VN. Funny thing though, I found their next game to have mostly excellent writing, and that one got bashed to shits by Japanese readers.

Reconquista

Spoiler

Kureha route, available from the beginning, spoils the shit out of Mahoko route. And Mahoko route... the ending is the perfect example of the kind of writing I hate: pretentious as fuck. A fight between two men with conflicting goals? Bitch please, one tries to kill the other, while the other (protag) is too soft to do that even to save his and Mahoko's life. Then as he's about to sacrifice himself to save her, the bad guy shows up yet again and sacrifices himself for no apparent reason other than to give you a forced happy ending.

All of this happens after you hear Mahoko being murdered in the most brutal way by the guy, then revived. But hey, no killing allowed right? This is one of the reasons I hate Japanese writing.

Hatsuyuki Sakura

Spoiler

Revenge kill kill revenge

jk lol, we can't kill anyone cause only hopeless bad guys do that, let's just stick it in someone and die an idiotic death.

My biggest problem though is that the protag doesn't give a shit about anyone, all the romance is fake.

AstralAir no Shiroki Towa (yuki-yuki yuki-yuki yuki-yuki yuki-yuki yuki-yuki yuki-yuki )

Aiyoku no Eustia (see post)

Sharin no Kuni, Himawari no Shoujo

Spoiler

Where do I even begin? The setting, it just doesn't work if you stop and think about it. With Sachi, the painter girl - protag gives her the pills when she'd likely die from hypothermia, survives because their friend was close by to help even though he wasn't supposed to be there, and that just works out and the protag doesn't blame himself for fanatically sticking to rules to the point of putting his friend in grave danger. With Ririko - she can just go around committing crimes without anyone to stop her. Technically you can call the police, but you'd have to look at her first - which is a crime. Who's to prove you couldn't ignore it? Add that to the Japanese mentality of looking the other way and you've got a completely broken system, where her "punishment" is a reward.

The list goes on and on.

For some examples of what I consider good writing, redardless of the plot: Rewrite (Terra), Symphonic Rain (if I remember correctly), Fureraba (sugar overdose), Haruka Kanata (at least some routes), Itsusora (for the common route).

Of course, you will likely disagree with me on some or all of this, and that's perfectly fine. But the question here is: what will you enjoy more, a solid game with writing issues, or a low-plot/plotless title with the kind of writing that just clicks with you?

Edited December 10, 2016 by Funnerific

[Funnerific]

Please refer to the updated question, I feel like my intent might have been misunderstood.

[Zidan209]

I simply wouldn't read something with shit plot. 

But if the plot is amazing, i wouldn't mind it being written by an amateur or something

[fun2novel]

I get what you mean but I also think you're confusing what plot and writing really mean.

Plot is a sequence of strung together events and scenes. Writing is, well, the actual text you see with your own eyes. In your case by Plot you actually mean a Story and by Writing you mean how the story is told. If I understood your correctly.

My answer to your questions is very simple, it depends. Say I am reading something like Dies Irae, then of course I want a good plot. But what makes the plot good is not just THE plot but how it is written. Even a good plot will fail if the writing is bad.

On the other hand if I am looking to read some thing more comedic then a plot is not that matters, the writing has to be good and funny to hold my interest.

Both examples demand good writing but with a very different focus.

[Funnerific]

1 minute ago, fun2novel said:

I get what you mean but I also think you're confusing what plot and writing really mean.

Plot is a sequence of strung together events and scenes. Writing is, well, the actual text you see with your own eyes. In your case by Plot you actually mean a Story and by Writing you mean how the story is told. If I understood your correctly.

I don't really see a difference, but fixed

[atorq]

You can't really have one without the other, and on top of that, writing is something which can be objectively classed as good or bad whereas plot is far more subjective.

Edited December 10, 2016 by atorq

[Funnerific]

2 minutes ago, atorq said:

You can't really have one without the other, and on top of that, writing is something which can be objectively classed as good or bad whereas plot it far more subjective.

Well you kinda can, I've seen plenty of that. And the question is, which one matters more to you, without any regard for objectivity.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Funnerific

[atorq]

Just now, Funnerific said:

Well you kinda can, I've seen plenty of that. And the question is, which one matters more to you, without any regard to objectivity.

And I answered that I find them equally important, if I don't like the writing, I skip, if I don't like the plot, I skip. Writing can ruin an interesting plot, but writing can't save a dull plot. And vice versa.

[Sovapex]

42 minutes ago, atorq said:

And I answered that I find them equally important, if I don't like the writing, I skip, if I don't like the plot, I skip. Writing can ruin an interesting plot, but writing can't save a dull plot. And vice versa.

Problem I have with that statement is that writing does not need to save a dull plot, because plots are not always the most important thing in a Visual Novel. 

 If the dialogue is Shakespearean, then that alone would be more than enough reason for anyone who gives a damn about that to stick with it. Same if the themes were well presented, same if the characters were well presented, same if certain scenes (like H or fight scenes) were well presented. That's what writing essentially is - Presentation. 

Good writing can't make a bad plot better, but it can make a visual novel better. No? 

Edited December 10, 2016 by Sovapex

[Deep Blue]

Writing doesn't click anything for me, the story does, I can handle something that goes on and on aka repetition, bad pacing, etc if it leads to something good.

I cannot read something that isn't something to begin with, can I? 

[Narcosis]

Let's deconstruct the terms. What does "plot" mean? It's basically the story idea, given a structural form. Writing is the process of bringing that idea into fruition by putting it into the right words. Ideas are many and they are disposable. You can have the greatest ideas ever, but if you're unable to physically manifest them into reality, they will remain what they were - just some thoughts swimming inside your head. On the other hand, good plot tends to achieve far greater impact with equally great writing. I agree with @fun2novel on that point, but the truth is you can't really have a good story without a good plot, or even lack of thereof. Still, you can even turn the most generic and casual of daily activities into incredibly interesting situations with good writing. You can even write sex scenes, that won't look like porn at all.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Narcosis

[Darklord Rooke]

Hearing that the plot is the most important thing for many visual novel fans might demystify certain things. For example, because there's only so many different sorts of plots going around, I might now understand why the 'plot twist' is held in such high regard - anything to take the story in an unexpected direction I guess.

[Sovapex]

37 minutes ago, Narcosis said:

Let's deconstruct the terms. What does "plot" mean? It's basically the story idea, given a structural form. Writing is the process of bringing that idea into fruition by putting it into the right words. Ideas are many and they are disposable. You can have the greatest ideas ever, but if you're unable to physically manifest them into reality, they will remain what they were - just some thoughts swimming inside your head. On the other hand, good plot tends to achieve far greater impact with equally great writing. I agree with @fun2novel on that point, but the truth is you can't really have a good story without a good plot, or even lack of thereof. Still, you can even turn the most generic and casual of daily activities into incredibly interesting situations with good writing. You can even write sex scenes, that won't look like porn at all.

Your post is great. 

In simple terms, writing is the presentation of pretty much everything in the narrative. As someone who writes, understanding this was absolutely fundamental in improving myself. 

Good writing and a good plot will pretty much always make for a great experience. But if it's a question between one or the other... I guess I can't fault many people who go for plot, but I'll never understand it. Writing simply controls too many factors for me to favor plot over it. There's nothing that puts me off more than a boulder of information being force fed to you, bringing the plot to a halt, because the writer was too incompetent to weave his exposition into the narrative. 

[Norleas]

To me, writing cannot save bad stories at least in the visual novels medium, because in the pool of scenario writers only a minimal fraction have talent(or potential) to make this happen. Make conversations is one thing, but use the words as a art form is other completely different and way more harder. Another thing is that we have more factors to think, art, sound, characters personality, you could see that in smee last title, that though have the same scenario writer of the last titles the art downgrade make a drop off in the sales.
 
On a side note, great plots could have shit concepts(chunni high school save the world).

[Narcosis]

22 minutes ago, Norleas said:

On a side note, great plots could have shit concepts(chunni high school save the world).

That would be Dies Irae, wouldn't it?

But that's just a good example, of how high quality writing can make even the most stereotypic and cliched plots into magnificent stories.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Narcosis

[Sovapex]

51 minutes ago, Norleas said:

To me, writing cannot save bad stories at least in the visual novels medium, because in the pool of scenario writers only a minimal fraction have talent(or potential) to make this happen. Make conversations is one thing, but use the words as a art form is other completely different and way more harder. Another thing is that we have more factors to think, art, sound, characters personality, you could see that in smee last title, that though have the same scenario writer of the last titles the art downgrade make a drop off in the sales.
 
On a side note, great plots could have shit concepts(chunni high school save the world).

Using words artistically is not the be all and end all of writing. Shakespeare didn't just write amazing dialogue, he wrote amazing characters and scenes, too. There are a lot of issues that can get in the way of a good plot if the writer is incompetent. 

 

[Norleas]

8 minutes ago, Sovapex said:

Using words artistically is not the be all and end all of writing. Shakespeare didn't just write amazing dialogue, he wrote amazing characters and scenes, too. There are a lot of issues that can get in the way of a good plot if the writer is incompetent. 

 

I think that i expressed myself in the wrong way, i'm not saying that writing is make colossous monologues with beautiful word games and this is the absolute, but when you have a bad history you need ways to catch people . Of course amazing characters alone could make a great vn, but i will leave that alone in this discussion cause i think that character construction is a point that though depend of plot and writing is in some extent independent.

1 hour ago, Narcosis said:

That would be Dies Irae, wouldn't it?

But that's just a good example, of how high quality writing can make even the most stereotypic and cliched plots into magnificent stories.

Dies Irae to me is great beacuse of the characters, principally Reinhard and Mercurius and her monologues, but though is stereotypic and cliched the unroll of the story is not bad (ok i guess).

Another side note: Imagine the characterization and great monologues in a psychological drama without the chunni mask.

[Kawasumi]

3 minutes ago, Norleas said:

I think that i expressed myself in the wrong way, i'm not saying that writing is make colossous monologues with beautiful word games and this is the absolute, but when you have a bad history you need ways to catch people . Of course amazing characters alone could make a great vn, but i will leave that alone in this discussion cause i think that character construction is a point that though depend of plot and writing is in some extent independent.

Dies Irae to me is great beacuse of the characters, principally Reinhard and Mercurius and her monologues, but though is stereotypic and cliched the unroll of the story is not bad (ok i guess).

Another side note: Imagine the characterization and great monologues in a psychological drama without the chunni mask.

I didnt know that mercurius was a reverse-trap.

Also story > writing, pacing is way more important imo

Edited December 10, 2016 by Kawasumi

[Funnerific]

10 minutes ago, Kawasumi said:

Also story > writing, pacing is way more important imo

Pacing is 100% part of writing.

[Kawasumi]

Just now, Funnerific said:

Pacing is 100% part of writing.

thats the thing that keeps me interested, so both then

[Norleas]

6 minutes ago, Kawasumi said:

I didnt know that mercurius was a reverse-trap.

Also story > writing, pacing is way more important imo

My text is a live example of good story with bad writing  imagine if Mercurius wear a skirt, the game would be much better.
I will not edit this for didactic purposes.

[sanahtlig]

I like interesting stories that immerse me in an alternative world.  The scenario, the succession of interesting scenes, is more important to me than how it's written.  Anyone who's played more than a few games with machine translation and enjoyed what they read would have to choose "plot/story", I'd assume?

[Chronopolis]

9 hours ago, Darklord Rooke said:

Hearing that the plot is the most important thing for many visual novel fans might demystify certain things. For example, because there's only so many different sorts of plots going around, I might now understand why the 'plot twist' is held in such high regard - anything to take the story in an unexpected direction I guess.

Well it's not just plot, it's the premise, character development, character interactions (not how the dialogue is presented, but ,) the content of the dialogue, the topics it touches, etc.

[Soulless Watcher]

Plot definitely, but that might be because of how my brain works. I don't nitpick the writing or translation accuracy of a visual novel. I just need a general idea of what is going on and my brain fills up all the gaps, I don't really need a picture painted. I was one of those people who were genuinely surprised that titles like Cross Channel and Hoshizora had notoriously bad translations.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Soulless Watcher

[Sovapex]

1 hour ago, Chronopolis said:

Well it's not just plot, it's the premise, character development, character interactions (not how the dialogue is presented, but ,) the content of the dialogue, the topics it touches, etc.

Character development hinges on both writing and plot. Without plot there's no development, but without decent writing, the presentation of that development is almost fated to be bad. Development is one of the hardest things to realistically pull off. You can't kill a person's dog and then have them wake up the next day to be fully independent - it's a long, hard grueling process. I've seen characters pretty much spontaneously defeat their inner demons because people simply told them to before. 

Plus, content of the dialogue and how the dialogue is presented. Isn't that pretty much exactly the same thing?