Who are charages aimed for?

[Vorathiel]

I will start with a disclimer that I do not wanted to hurt anybody feelings, and all of this is my subjective view on the matter.

Let's get it started.
We all know how 'otaku culture' is perceived (in the west at least). Neckbeards, virgins, obesse, etc. I'm not saying that's the truth, but that's the stereotype, and stereotypes usually aren't coming from nowhere.
Also - what charage/datingsims-like-eroge are providing? For me is escapism. Many titles deliberately make protags bland, empty shells with no voice acting, even without name sometimes, so you can immerse yourself in his place.
So my 'escpaism' theory is rather correct. Charage provides dating and romance stuff for people who are craving it in reall life (admit it - who would want to spend 5 hours reading some charage, instead of actually dating a pretty girl he likes?).

Then, if it's true, if charage are made for 'beta-males', to put it blunt, why are protags so... so great?
Yeah, I said they're empty shells, but what a shells are those! They're almost everytime at least handsome, if not downright attractive, great body, decent skills in many things (like, school grades, duh), and pretty popular. I have yet to see a charage in which protag is not-very-goodlooking, not very charming, or 'hardworking', and needs to WIN the girl, who is not interested in him at all, with his personality, his hidden charms, his actions or something like that. Usually it's just 'every girl is dreaming of him, and he is to dense to see it'. Sometimes girls are gradually more attached to protag through events they spend together, but those are scenes they had together, not scenes in which protag deliberately created a situation when girl will start to like him. There is no small teps, no small presents, no flowers, no first dates disguised as just regular going to somwhere, ect. I naver seen a scene, like for example: school setting, teacher announces a group-project, and protag doing everything to be in the same group with his crush. Nothing like that.

So my question is - who is it really aimed for? I, for example, as a beta-male, I feel sometimes just depressed when seeing a scenes when this asshole, the protagonist, is doing absolutly nothing and he gets girlfriend besides that. I have enough of seeing this in reall life. This is not escapism I'm looking for. This is a nail to the coffin to the depressed by 'that feel when no gf'. Or maybe I am just a special snowflake, and charages are not aimed for me? And all those other no girlfriend boys/men are enticed and happy by those stories? Or maybe charages are aimed for japanesse succesfull boys/men? But if so, then it contradicts to my point of view, as who would want to read a charage, when he have a reall loving girlfriend.

Or maybe I'm just unlucky in my charages choices? And there are many games that provides a 'looser' protag, who must really strive to get a girlfriend? If so, then could you give me examples of that vns?

Feel free to discuss anything related.  

[Yuuko]

13 minutes ago, Vorathiel said:

(admit it - who would want to spend 5 hours reading some charage, instead of actually dating a pretty girl he likes?).

All the 3D girls are trash  2D all the way.

13 minutes ago, Vorathiel said:

They're almost everytime at least handsome, if not downright attractive, great body

You have seen the protag-kun!? : o

You can also self-insert yourself to a protagonist that is not an empty shell. (or at least I can)

13 minutes ago, Vorathiel said:

Then, if it's true, if charage are made for 'beta-males', to put it blunt, why are protags so... so great?

Charage is a really wide "genre" are you sure you exactly know what charages are?

13 minutes ago, Vorathiel said:

So my question is - who is it really aimed for? I, for example, as a beta-male, I feel sometimes just depressed when seeing a scenes when this asshole, the protagonist, is doing absolutly nothing and he gets girlfriend besides that. I have enough of seeing this in reall life. This is not escapism I'm looking for. This is a nail to the coffin to the depressed by 'that feel when no gf'. Or maybe I am just a special snowflake, and charages are not aimed for me? And all those other no girlfriend boys/men are enticed and happy by those stories? Or maybe charages are aimed for japanesse succesfull boys/men? But if so, then it contradicts to my point of view, as who would want to read a charage, when he have a reall loving girlfriend.

I live to see cute 2D girls. I don't care about 3D  

[Okarin]

Not sure about the charage distinction, it isn't in my vocabulary yet. The explanation to above-par protags is fantasy, like with bad writers that create Mary Sues and Gary Stus. In an ideal world we would like to be what we certainly aren't, and that would be powerful, charming and a womanizer, in most cases.

There's also more generic protags for easily relating to them, but I think these are from longer ago. They start with a boring life and magically get lots of friends and potential love interests. The girls in-game remark that what attracts them to the man is his "gentleness". Pretty much implying that at the start they would be antisocial assholes. That can be seen as character development, but IRL antisocial people don't have it that easy. Examples: Yuuji (Yuki Sakura), Kouhei (Yume Miru Kusuri), Mitsuki (Period).

[Vorathiel]

1 minute ago, Kiriririri said:

All the 3D girls are trash  2D all the way.

You have seen the protag-kun!? : o

Charage is a really wide genre are you sure you exactly know what charages are?

I live to see cute 2D girls. I don't care about 3D  

1st quote) - that's why I said 'girl he likes'  Cause I know that most 3d are just... ugh. 
2nd) - yeah, in many titles. Cause I'm not talking about straight nukige, like Imouto Paradise, rather something more vanilla, romance oriented, like Hoshimemo.
3rd) - in my definition is a typical 'dating sim' like vn, with common route in which you get to know all the ladies, made some choices and land on route with one girl you chose. Am I wrong?
4th) - so you're not translate yourself on protag place, you just read story about 'this guy', and you're jsut happy because you get to see pretty CGs? Well, sometimes I feel the same way, but if game have somthing 'more', something that 'touches my heart' I instantly starting to project myself and how would this situation would be if there was me instead of this protag.

[TexasDice]

12 year old French girls who like anime

[Nashetania]

So... What you are saying is that you want to read something more realistic? That doesn't make much sense.

If it would be realistic, I could just go out and do the same stuff.

It's same with games (not VNs) too. I wouldn't enjoy a "realistic" game.

 

Furthermore, it's not that hard to get a girlfriend. There are as many "beta-males" as there are "beta-females".

[Vorathiel]

2 minutes ago, Nashetania said:

So... What you are saying is that you want to read something more realistic? That doesn't make much sense.

Why? Is about romance with empty shell protag, where you 'should' project yourself. That's why I would like something more reallistic, which could rise up my selfesteem. Like 'seeing this guy, acting like me, in that situation gets a girl, so why can't I?' type of way. Seeing Gary Stu protag are only pushing me downwards cause 'oh I need to be that and this to get a girl like her'. I know it's just a game, and I shouldn't take their stories as a depiction of reality, but on some subconscious level, this is how it works.
 

5 minutes ago, Nashetania said:

It's same with games (not VNs) too. I wouldn't enjoy a "realistic" game.

Agree. I would want to play Mass Effect with whiny, weak protag, or watch Indiana Jones with ugly, gloomy fatso. But these are different types, these are story driven things, and that's why I was talking about charages, romance oriented titles.

[Nosebleed]

I think you're kind of misinterpreting the term charage.

Charages are games where the focus is on character interaction rather than an overarching plot. Usual signs of a charage are VNs where the goal is ultimately to romance one of the heroines and the focus of the route is the characters themselves and their problems rather than some external plot, which again is most VNs out there.

But there's nothing that says a charage can't have a properly written protagonist, it's just that most of the time they don't because they're self-insertion moege.

Who are charages for? People who value characters and character interaction over plot.

[Yuuko]

9 minutes ago, Vorathiel said:

1st quote) - that's why I said 'girl he likes'  Cause I know that most 3d are just... ugh. 
2nd) - yeah, in many titles. Cause I'm not talking about straight nukige, like Imouto Paradise, rather something more vanilla, romance oriented, like Hoshimemo.
3rd) - in my definition is a typical 'dating sim' like vn, with common route in which you get to know all the ladies, made some choices and land on route with one girl you chose. Am I wrong?
4th) - so you're not translate yourself on protag place, you just read story about 'this guy', and you're jsut happy because you get to see pretty CGs? Well, sometimes I feel the same way, but if game have somthing 'more', something that 'touches my heart' I instantly starting to project myself and how would this situation would be if there was me instead of this protag.

Charage is a game that is about character interaction and their relationships. This can be applied to too many VNs

No I self-insert myself but I don't do it like you. I "am" the protagonist but I let the game control me, I don't control the game. I don't think how I would do in this situation. I'll just enjoy the scene. Bringing 3D thoughts to 2D is bad.

[Stormwolf]

Can't go as far as to say i ever self-insert into a protagonist in vn's. Sure, i empathize with shit they go through, but i can hardly ever agree to anything they say or do. They are like the silent guy at the front of the classroom who never says anything and can't make any friends. I just can't be that guy.

[Okarin]

Most important thing for getting friends and a partner is being in social environments. Like, find a thing you like and do it with other people. Some environments are not that good for socializing, for example I'm the loner in yoga class because the pupils are mostly middle-aged married women, and I don't fit in that much. In all honesty the cause is that I hardly approach anyone in that place, and no one approaches me. Have gotten to good terms with a couple people, but they were men, and I piqued their interest; why would someone approach you otherwise?

Characters in a VN are in social environments, such as a school; if your school is co-ed (my class had around 5 girls to 25 boys) you have potential chances of meeting girls. So, many times it only takes the protag to approach class rep or some other girl and develop a relationship from there. Just like with any of us, if we found the strength.

[Vorathiel]

7 minutes ago, Nosebleed said:

I think you're kind of misinterpreting the term charage.

Charages are games where the focus is on character interaction rather than an overarching plot. Usual signs of a charage are VNs where the goal is ultimately to romance one of the heroines and the focus of the route is the characters themselves and their problems rather than some external plot, which again is most VNs out there.

But there's nothing that says a charage can't have a properly written protagonist, it's just that most of the time they don't because they're self-insertion moege.

That's....exactly what I was saying and understanding by the term charage. Especially the part that most (obviously not all) charages are having that bland protag.

Cause if the protagonist is written, then I have rather small complaints on 'unrealistic', out of nowhere romance.
But if the protag is as bland and invite you to project yourself on his place, then...yeah, that's when it gets bad.

[Nosebleed]

From reading your post, I think you just interpret charage as strictly self-insertion moege where the goal is to date cute girls, when in fact charages can have good settings and good characters that aren't meant to be about self-insertion. It all depends on what games you play.

Also the idea that they're strictly for escapism and for beta-males is quite a broad over generalisation.

One of my favorite visual novels, Tasogare no Sinsemilla, has an overarching plot and expands on the setting with each route until you get to the true route. Even though it's a charage, it manages to balance the development of its initial premises and folklore while introducing the element of romance later on, with most of the girls having some connection to the overarching plot.

I think charage are ultimately just games where you can enjoy reading about fun characters rather than reading about how the world is being destroyed.

[Vorathiel]

1 minute ago, Okarin said:

Characters in a VN are in social environments, such as a school; if your school is co-ed (my class had around 5 girls to 25 boys) you have potential chances of meeting girls. So, many times it only takes the protag to approach class rep or some other girl and develop a relationship from there. Just like with any of us, if we found the strength.

THAT'S what I'm talking about! See, you said that charcter have to approach class rep or other girl. But they don't do that. Not on their own, just from a thought "I like her/she's pretty, so I'll approach her and start talking". Not ever. (at least for me, and I haven't read many vns yet, so recommendations are most likely welcome). Always the girls are taking first steps, or just sittuations in which protags talk to a girl came by accident.

And that's my main problem I think - there is no buildup to 'love' from protags side. Like in Ikinari Anata Ni Koishiteiru. I really like this title, it's shit, but have a few peaks that are really high. Like in a Tane route, when game really excellently depicts a minds of a first time in love young people. Or in Eika route is great scene when they kiss first time, with so much sexuall tension between them, that air is just sparking.
BUT. There were no buildup. It was depicted that girl likes protag for ages because that and that events, but protags are just "suddenly relised he's in love". He didn't need to approach, and simply put 'try to pick up' the girl. And that's what I want in romance driven titles. Romance.

[Nosebleed]

Just now, Vorathiel said:

And that's my main problem I think - there is no buildup to 'love' from protags side. Like in Ikinari Anata Ni Koishiteiru. 

Well there's your problem, you read Ikikoi.

[Vorathiel]

1 minute ago, Nosebleed said:

From reading your post, I think you just interpret charage as strictly self-insertion moege where the goal is to date cute girls, when in fact charages can have good settings and good characters that aren't meant to be about self-insertion. It all depends on what games you play.

I think charage are ultimately just games where you can enjoy reading about fun characters rather than reading about how the world is being destroyed.

Yeah, I probably just used wrong words and sentence structures, that can be misguiding. But I was talking about just romance driven vns. With small or not existing overarching plot.
 

2 minutes ago, Nosebleed said:

Also the idea that they're strictly for escapism and for beta-males is quite a broad over generalisation.

As I said - it's only my opinion (and it's only about that bland protag titles), and I asked - if that's not it, then what? Who is it aimed for and what it provides? 

[Kanbe]

I just play charages for well, the characters. Shit charas? No play. Dun care bout anything else

[Vorathiel]

2 minutes ago, Nosebleed said:

Well there's your problem, you read Ikikoi.

Sigh. ;p
Same goes for Muv-Luv Extra, Hoshizora No Memoria, Cartagra, Imouto Paradise, or even G Maou (in branching routes). No build up. Just sudden love.

[CeruleanGamer]

24 minutes ago, Nosebleed said:

I think you're kind of misinterpreting the term charage.

Charages are games where the focus is on character interaction rather than an overarching plot. Usual signs of a charage are VNs where the goal is ultimately to romance one of the heroines and the focus of the route is the characters themselves and their problems rather than some external plot, which again is most VNs out there.

But there's nothing that says a charage can't have a properly written protagonist, it's just that most of the time they don't because they're self-insertion moege.

Who are charages for? People who value characters and character interaction over plot.

This. You can even break it down from the word itself.  

Chara- as in character. Duh!

-rage as in from that emotion you feel because the heroine and the protag are not being logical and continue to drag the problem and drama instead of finding ways to solve it.  

Thus, do not read character if you hate "rage"ing on characters.  

[Stormwolf]

11 minutes ago, Vorathiel said:

And that's my main problem I think - there is no buildup to 'love' from protags side. 

That is the case in too many vn's and it bugs me to no end as well. He's acting almost completely asexual for most part of the vn and is like, "what do i feel?" but stick to a girl like glue and doesn't show or have internal monologue shows that he actually likes this person, and suddenly he throws out a love confession which goes like "I like you > i love you" And they kiss and have sex within a few minutes. Absolute garbage.

[Vorathiel]

1 minute ago, Stormwolf said:

That is the case in most vn's and it bugs me to no end as well. He's acting almost completely asexual for most part of the vn and is like, "what do i feel?" but stick to a girl like glue and doesn't show or have internal monologue shows that he actually likes this person, and suddenly he throws out a love confession which goes like "I like you > i love you" And they kiss and have sex within a few minutes. Absolute garbage.

Yeah. Remind me - why we even bother reading those VNs? xD

 

3 minutes ago, CeruleanGamer said:

This. You can even break it down from the word itself.  

Chara- as in character. Duh!

-rage as in from that emotion you feel because the heroine and the protag are not being logical and continue to drag the problem and drama instead of finding ways to solve it.  

Thus, do not read character if you hate "rage"ing on characters.  

As always - pure gold from you. Laughed hard xDD

[Tyr]

21 minutes ago, Nosebleed said:

Who are charages for? People who value characters and character interaction over plot.

Yeah right. If you want to read about good characters, charages are the way to go. No self-insertion at all.

To actually answer OP's question: There are different types of beta-males. The type Vorathiel probably is too is the self-consciously type who knows too much about himself and his flaws that he can't fantasize anymore to be someone else. It irritates him to see a protag who does something he would never do. And it's especially irritating if protag gets the girls with being someone the reader could never be.
If I were a beta-male, I would probably be this type too.

Interestingly, Japanese otakus seem to be another type of beta. They don't have any self-consciousness left. They don't have any personality whatsoever and can assimilate everything they read as long as it's cool. That's why we have so many overpowered main characters although their target audience are socially retarded 3D-hetares. I don't think this type of otakuness is healthy and it's probably one of the reasons why animu and eroge are getting so bad.

[Okarin]

Well I think that in a school setting, as I said, you're going to have some interaction with the girls. That interaction can be well or badly written, that's all. For example, Lucia from Rewrite - if you select her scenes, male lead interacts with her, but only as he decides to help her with personal issues (out of compassion, or so it seems) the relationship unfolds.

In Period, well I played that a couple of years ago, but the characters where doing things all day (it's a school), so from the contact some feelings could arise. All in all, it's the type of game where a character comes at a point and downright asks you whom you like. Some heroines in that game are trickier to get. And well... I wish banging school staff was that easy.

Oh, and another one comes to mind, in the indie game "deIZ" done by much loved Mike Einel, the main heroine is one you have to approach with your own tools. Try that, it's entertaining -but not your regular Japanese-made Japanese-taste game.

[Vorathiel]

To sum up the thread:

Could you recommend any romance driven, decent in lenght vns, which has a protagonist who is picking up on girls, who are not interested in him, and gradually 'winning' their hearts?

[Okarin]

Don't take it badly Vorathiel, but there's a point were one kinda develops a sixth sense when it comes to novels. Just looking at a briefing of the plot, the designs, and some helpful VNDB tags will put you in the right direction. There's TV Tropes too, but you could spoil the thing up.