Localization of VNs

[Steve]

This kind of debates emerges pretty much every two weeks around here.
It's always very interesting but also tend to derail the threads involved.

This thread will be used to channel all of it. 

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Original Post:

orignal topic: https://forums.fuwanovel.net/index.php?/topic/887-mangagamer-cease-desist-da-capo-iii-fan-translation/page__pid__12439__st__50#entry12439

Lets continue here further distribution discussion.

[Wahfuu]

Yes but they are niche even in Japan and are still profitable - because they are also cheap to make. Yes there is better density in japan but they have like 100m people in there.

Then take the rest 6.9bil of people or what the population is and don't tell me you wouldn't find at least about half of the JP number of people interested.

Just look at fuwanovel numbers or even better VNDB numbers, there is 40k registered users, that means 40k of people that took the time to register so they can keep a list or whatever, many other people who play VNs I know don't even have VNDB account.

So the market is there, even if not the numbers of JP people, it is there and translation should never cost nearly as much as the whole VN development, And if done right and quickly, it will be bonus sales that would otherwise not be sales at all or be torrent DLs.

And you throw the 100usd all the time so again, think about how much of that the developer actually sees, after all the giant cuts from distribution. They can afford -20% whole summer deal (or there is always a coupon for at least 15% from somewhere, must be even easier to get it in japan as you just get it with any other purchase) and I think you get another 5% in points on sites like DLgetchu which you can use for next purchases if you buy there regularly which is also sometimes doubled to about 10% from the purchase. And you get 3% if you register there.

So lets see, DCIII X rated is 80usd on getchu for boxed copy normal edition (without some artbook or whatever as you don't get that with digital either). You apply all the regular discounts (not even counting the best deal you can get) and all and you get it for about 60usd and it is boxed copy.

So why do you think 50usd for English DL release on same day is not enough?

For a big release like that it is a fair price if I can play it on the day of release.

5 years after when there is DCIV... not so much.

So that brings the whole point once again.

People want the newest and greatest, we want to see the new stuff like Witch's Garden technology or whatever else the new VNs has to offer, not old stuff for a price of a new release.

I'm just gonna copypaste what you said over here just so I can respond.

I think you are far, FAR overvaluing how much value being newer would actually bring to the VN market. It really doesn't matter to the VN market as a whole as it currently stands; We exchange information about whats good and whats not and what should be translated and what shouldn't be, date or not. Being 'newer' has very little effect on this market.

Also, about VNDB numbers: 40k Is an EXTREMELY small number for a medium. Not only that, people almost always introduce people to VN's through pirating because the majority of the best VN's are fan translated. How many of those 40k people do you think actually bought hard copies of those VN's? It's probably smaller then you think. Way smaller.

Also, licensing deals can be quite expensive and very frustrating. The Kara no Shoujo voice acting licsense was very problematic.

You know Japan releases a huge number of highschool romance 18+ games because it's simply safer and sells consistently? It's like what we have with MangaGamer. The VN market in Japan is quite stagnant. It's a bit like how we continue to get Nukige from MangaGamer because they are struggiling to stay financially afloat.

[Steve]

I'm just gonna copypaste what you said over here just so I can respond.

I think you are far, FAR overvaluing how much value being newer would actually bring to the VN market. It really doesn't matter to the VN market as a whole as it currently stands; We exchange information about whats good and whats not and what should be translated and what shouldn't be, date or not. Being 'newer' has very little effect on this market.

well then I would love to hear opinions of others on this because for me it is very important part.

the current choice is -

a] pay for licensed english translated game that is 5+ years old

b] download game that is 3+ years old for free with fan translation

what im looking for is

c] pay for licensed english translated game that was just released

but there is no option like that

Also, about VNDB numbers: 40k Is an EXTREMELY small number for a medium. Not only that, people almost always introduce people to VN's through pirating because the majority of the best VN's are fan translated. How many of those 40k people do you think actually bought hard copies of those VN's? It's probably smaller then you think. Way smaller.

well they didn't buy any copies because there are no English copies of new games. Also there are no DL versions of many games so they would have to import with expensive shipping - and then wait for someone to TL it.

Also for a common VN 10k sells is already a success so even if they somehow managed to sell it to 3k people, it would surely pay for the TL and who knows, they make next game like that and more people buy it because they liked the previous one from company?

People reward good games with good business practices, even in a niche market.

Also, licensing deals can be quite expensive and very frustrating. The Kara no Shoujo voice acting licsense was very problematic.

You know Japan releases a huge number of highschool romance 18+ games because it's simply safer and sells consistently? It's like what we have with MangaGamer. The VN market in Japan is quite stagnant. It's a bit like how we continue to get Nukige from MangaGamer because they are struggiling to stay financially afloat.

Well not sure how exactly MG does it but if they buy the rights to translate and release game and they get 100% of the earnings, then it seems weird and ofc it will bring problems.

It would be better to get on good terms with the JP publisher/dev and not take the role of west publisher, but distributor.

Without a need for license, only pay the translators and then either get cut from the sales or when on good terms, funding of the project from JP and full money to the dev.

It might be hard talking to the JP publisher/dev but can't be impossible.

I will once again bring CD Projekt, they are official distributor and localization company for south-korean NC soft and japanese SEGA. They managed to show that some small country of 30m people or so wants their game in their native language. Why can't we show that enough western people want new VNs in the most common language in america and europe - English.

It would just take lots of talking and trying trying trying and trying again to talk those Japanese into that. Then they could see how it works.

Or if they really don't believe in the market, why not use crowd fund or pre-funding.

"Hey guys we got a deal with this JP dev (not some random one, someone at least little popular in the west), if we get this amount of money that would the TL cost for their next game that is about to be released in half a year, we will do it. Their scripts are mostly done so we can start TLing as soon as we get the money from KS or wherever and it should be done 1-2 months after the release. Donate 1-25usd for good warm feeling, 25+ for a DL copy of the game and 60+ for a artbook or poster or whatever as a bonus or a boxed copy. If we don't fund it, nothing will happen but well nobody is loser anyway as there were no money invested"

If it got funded, get the promissed game to toe backers and then also sell it as a DL/box to the new costumers for full price."

They would lose nothing at all trying it and if it got funded, they would get TL for free and then bonus earnings from future sales.

And I'm not saying do it only that way and rely only on KS TL funding - do it that way if they are scared of funding the translation. They would see if it works or not and for the next project they could decide to fund it themselves.

[RusAnon]

Re. "Steam is on different scale" — I don't have hard numbers on hands right now, but I've heard VNs did quite well on google play/apple market. And I see no problems in selling VNs on Steam too — Agarest greenlight showed significant interest in japan games.

Raising prices to combat poor sales is dead end, many companies tried it and found no success.

[Beato]

Higurashi still hasn't been able to get through greenlight though.

[InvertMouse]

Re. "Steam is on different scale" — I don't have hard numbers on hands right now, but I've heard VNs did quite well on google play/apple market. And I see no problems in selling VNs on Steam too — Agarest greenlight showed significant interest in japan games.

Raising prices to combat poor sales is dead end, many companies tried it and found no success.

Yeah. Surely, raising prices to make up for poor sales is not the way to go~

What about Analogue on Steam? That game sold okay, I think. What was the difference in Analogue that made it stand out, I wonder? I certainly would love to see more VNs show up on Steam.

Getting VNs first hand is is real expensive. Admittedly, even if I love a VN, I mostly just get it second hand, which is of no help to the creators at all. Unless it's a game like Narcissu in which case I'll just throw money at anyone involved.

[solidbatman]

I have a hard time justifying a $60 purchase for a freshly printed VN when in my opinion, I see VNs as an extension of video games without the game play. That being said, the pricing I see for Nitoplus games over on JastUSA seems very reasonable to me. I'll have no issues paying $24.95 for Saya no Uta in the future. The thing for me, though, is that VNs compete with full fledged video games for my PS3 and other consoles. So then my problem is, I can only afford a $25- 50 VN, or I can buy a game like Mugen Souls, Zone of the Enders HD, Dead Space 3 etc. for the same amount. Of course, I'm going to lean towards the actual video game since those, to me, they seem like better value (even if they may not be).

In my eyes, VNs are another genre of video games. That may be wrong, but thats how I see it, and I assume a great number of western gamers see it the same way. So when it comes down to it, I'd rather spend my money on a PS3/PC game than buy a visual novel.

Very few VNs come over that get me excited. ef, and Saya no Uta might be the only two that have come over that I'll end up buying. The issue is that the "good" VNs for the most part, don't come over. Clannad for example might never get an official release since 1)it has a fan translation and 2)so much text. Steins;Gate is another I would gladly snatch up. Instead, we get Boob Wars, Harem Party, whatever the else hell Manga Gamer has in their Adult section, etc.

I know there is a fan base for those games, but really? Those games get picked over actual gems like S;G, Clannad, other Key VNs.... It pisses me off. It's sad that VNs simply don't sell very well in the west or we might get them in a more timely manner. It's also a shame that of all the VNs that have come over, I can think of 2-3 that I would actually buy.

I may be completely off in my opinion here, so feel free to set me straight.

tl;dr There is nothing I really want to buy when compared to other genres of gaming.

[sanahtlig]

The problem is localization companies have very limited choice when it comes to what they can choose to release. Key has been approached. They demanded unreasonable licensing fees for a market this size. Other companies like Age may be willing, but they want to choose the titles that get localized and in what order (a choice Amaterasu disagreed with which led to breakdown of negotiations). What it all boils down to is that Japanese developers aren't terribly interested in this market, and the market in turn isn't very interested in them (if the low volume of sales are any indication). This leads to the paradoxical situation where the most successful companies see no reason to expand overseas because they're doing just fine supported by their current fanbase, and Western players have very little enthusiasm for what does get released because the titles are generally mediocre, especially compared to fan translated titles which entirely circumvent negotiations with the original developer. Deals with companies like Nitro+ are fortunate exceptions, where a company with modest success in the Japanese market sees a high potential for its titles overseas. Minori is constantly struggling to stay solvent, and despite reservations they decided to work with fan translators rather than let their works be usurped.

But no matter how you look at it, you pay a premium for niche content. If you can't accept that you'll have to pay more for a Fate/Stay Night than a Mass Effect 2 (available for as little as $10), then this market isn't for you.

[Guest]

im with solidbatman imo,

the customer doesn't care about the static costs of production. all they care about is the price they are going to pay, relative to the competition, and based on whether the perceived value for what is gained, outweighs the loss (the loss, as in the other games u could have bought for that same amount of money).

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120417/03333118519/if-publishers-cant-cover-their-costs-with-10-ebooks-then-they-deserve-to-go-out-business.shtml

...and $25 is not really that premium is it?

[Tief Blau]

The amount I would pay isn't really important.

What is important is that I am getting what I am paying for.

I would gladly put up $100 if it was a game with a lot of goodies, but not $100 for a game alone.

For that matter, we do not expect ef - the latter tale to sell well, either. minori must realize that the western fanbase wants to be treated as well as the Japanese, not second-class citizens scrounging for table scraps. Give them a reason to buy your games, and they'll respond accordingly. minori has disappointed on that end: it has been 2.5 years since our first contact with them, and only ef tft has been released. Not much to cheer for, huh? We think the sales figures will be more encouraging once we work on something new.

Original post @ NNL

I also see a lot of people bringing up TYPE-MOON and Key as examples. I can't help but wonder if the differences in the mechanics for DVD/BluRay markets between US and JP have anything to do with their ridiculous licencing fees (JP = Sell to a niche market with expensive products, US = Profit by volume)

[Down]

I also see a lot of people bringing up TYPE-MOON and Key as examples. I can't help but wonder if the differences in the mechanics for DVD/BluRay markets between US and JP have anything to do with their ridiculous licencing fees (JP = Sell to a niche market with expensive products, US = Profit by volume)

TM and Key are exceptions. Because they have a way larger fanbase/sellbase than your random VN company. They don't have to rely on hardcore fans to make tons of profit out of their games. The niche ultra-expensive thing is for other companies struggling to get decent sales out of hardcore fans.

I think if their licensing fees are THAT ridiculous it's because they know their games are already popular in the west - they're pretty much the only ones that are, actually - so they can ask whatever price they want.

[Mephisto]

I think at the moment it isn't as much what we want as much as what we can get.

As mentioned a lot, VNs are a niche market which means that there isn't a great monetary incentive to localize.

That isn't to say there is "no money", but the fact is that it's insignificant compared to what a business can do with a different product. If you are an engineer, why would you work a job at a school for a very low wage compared to what you can earn at a corporation?

Only reason could be because they want to. That is why I think Mangagamer is on the same side as we are on this in that they want to bring visual novels here. However, if you are working and must pay for living expenses and the school salary can't support it, what can you do? That is a problem they will have to face.

If your "friends" came up to you and told you they think you are doing your job wrong and then present a "better" way to do it, would you be overjoyed? I think we need a different approach than saying MG is doing stuff wrong.

Edit: Additional thoughts

You are saying that you want games coming out when they are newly released, not 5 years after they are released and a sequel will be out.

There are obvious problems with this such as translation issue, but that likely is not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that would require cooperation between the Japanese Developer and the company localizing the game.

In this scenario, the Japanese Developer holds all the cards, and the company has nothing. There is no incentive for the JP developers to allow their game to be localized once it is released. Monetary incentive? Prove it. I don't have hard facts about this part, the way I imagine it to work is that the localization company pays an upfront fee for the license, and then an additional royalty for each commission sold. Feel free to correct if that's wrong, as maybe they only have to pay an extremely high licensing fee.

Where is the localization company going to get the money to pay for this? From fans? Prove it.

What is one visual novel that you want localized really badly, and are willing to pay for? Can you even think of one? If you can, then go and create a webpage dedicated to localizing that game and try to raise money for it. If you succeed in raising anything at all, then present it to the developer for the game, and ask them for permission to localize it.

Willing to do it? Because that is exactly what you are telling the localization companies to do. Sure you can say they are an organization so they can make some investments, but in the end these organizations are made by people, and if hardcore fans aren't even willing to try to raise money for these projects, why would a company bother?

How that relates to whether the game localized is new/relevant?

You said it yourself, you will pay more money for a game that has come out recently than one five years ago. Since you are willing to pay more, that means the Japanese Developers are also going to ask more from the company that wants to localize it. This is just theorycraft, but I would guess the amount would be close to five times the cost of localizing an old game. Since the fan-base is so limited, can they really justify an investment like that?

Of course not. Just look here, this is a community of visual novel players and even they are saying that they would prefer to buy a normal game instead.

I'm not even going to go in to piracy because that topic is a dead horse.

The picture I painted here is pretty bleak, but that's because I think the reality is just as bleak or even darker.

If you really want newer games to be localized then the fans need to help out. Companies have their hands tied since they have nothing to bargain with.

I apologize for the terrible structure of this post, as I didn't really think it through. I could rewrite it in essay format if it would make more sense.

P.S: If you are going to say something like the JP developers do have an incentive, such as possibility of a new market, then here's a thought problem for you. Let's say you design a completely new laptop and begin selling it in Japan. Then, some guy from the U.S is like, hey let me use your laptop design and sell it in the U.S! You'll be able to make a lot more money! I can only offer $100 up front for your designs though, and I can't guarantee that the Americans will want to buy Japanese laptops.

Sounds legit right?

[sanahtlig]

I think if their licensing fees are THAT ridiculous it's because they know their games are already popular in the west - they're pretty much the only ones that are, actually - so they can ask whatever price they want.

Absurd demands usually don't come from greed. They come from apathy. The greedy seek to extort what they can within the realm of what would potentially be accepted. The apathetic don't care enough to negotiate, so they set a demand and say "take it or leave it".

[shcboomer]

Absurd demands usually don't come from greed. They come from apathy. The greedy seek to extort what they can within the realm of what would potentially be accepted. The apathetic don't care enough to negotiate, so they set a demand and say "take it or leave it".

That seems to be the correct way to think of it, the biggest issue has to be that the Japanese companies just really don't care that much about the Western market. We can call it a bias or whatever we want, but the bottom line is that we as a market has yet to prove that we are worth the time and monetary investment. Localization companies can't afford to pay a huge licensing fee, much less enough for new content. That's why it becomes a circular problem that will likely see no end until we have some solid sale numbers in the West. With limited supply out here, and low demand, things look pretty bad.

[Steve]

I have a hard time justifying a $60 purchase for a freshly printed VN when in my opinion, I see VNs as an extension of video games without the game play. That being said, the pricing I see for Nitoplus games over on JastUSA seems very reasonable to me. I'll have no issues paying $24.95 for Saya no Uta in the future.

And that I see as one of the biggest problems too, people not being informed enough before purchase. I who before every purchase look at reviews and what not know, that Saya no Uta, although being a good VN, is also very short. on EGS it says average play time 6 hours.

And then we would have DC3 that has average 25 hours and it doesn't count the extra content.

Now these are times it took for JP and they read fast, it would probably be double the time for me.

so 50usd for DC3 x rated would be very good deal for me while saya no uta for 25usd not so much.

And that happens even in non VN video games, you get games that are 4 hours long and pay 50usd (50eur [65usd] in europe because why not right? xD).

And you get other games that will entertain you for 100 hours.

And people still buy those extra short ones even though every reviewer mentioned it has 4 hours.

In my eyes, VNs are another genre of video games. That may be wrong, but thats how I see it, and I assume a great number of western gamers see it the same way. So when it comes down to it, I'd rather spend my money on a PS3/PC game than buy a visual novel.

In my eyes too, thats why I prefer good VNs over many "average" games (like DS3 - average from my standpoint), I can't say I'd rather buy PC game because they are often times not that good and if there are few games a year with reasonable length and fun then they are as worth my time and in that case even money as VNs are.

The amount I would pay isn't really important.

What is important is that I am getting what I am paying for.

I would gladly put up $100 if it was a game with a lot of goodies, but not $100 for a game alone.

And that is exactly what is included in the 100usd pack in JP, artbook or whatever and sometimes I see version without these benefits that is like 25usd cheaper. (and then you apply discounts or whatever and you get the price we are asking for anyway - without any of the goodies)

Yes if they really want us to pay 100usd then be it with all the goods too, physical box on shelf and such, not DL version.

For example lets take last month's good release Lovesick Puppies

http://vndb.org/v11194

73usd (again by being registered on getchu you get it even cheaper, with no effort even 10% down [reg account and bonus points for next game], with some effort looking for discount code 25%) for the game in a boxed copy, probably manual and such, only to be on shelf.

83usd (again no discount) for this:

特典:[描き下ろしタペストリー、[予約キャンペーン]「らぶらぶえっちあぺんどディスク」＋録り下ろしドラマCD「幼馴染みといちごぱんつにまつわるえとせとら」（保科有希）] (18禁)

can't read it but I see some drama CD and I think some artbook or whatever - goodies, stuff

And that brings to to reasonable price 50usd for english DL release - no box on shelf, no disk, no goodies. So take 73, get some basic discount to like 65 by registering, count down 5usd (maybe even more, not sute exactly what the price is there for small package) for delivery that getchu pays for you anyway in japan to the mail service and no printing fees and box and such and you get to the 50 anyway so I think its a reasonable price for a release on the same month as JP.

and who wouldn't buy lovesick puppies xD

JAPANESE HAVE BAD DEALS

well that might be the biggest problem as I see it now. I never did any business with Japanese person, I made a lot of business with Russians and I must say those are one of the best do do business with as they are very good at making compromises.

Many central Europeans I deal with are also quite nice doing business with.

Chinese are not bad either, if you can get them understand English they are also willing to accept compromises, I traded with them a lot in my times of gold farming, making deals for what servers they would accept my services only so I can lover my competition.

But my only deals with Japanese are games and stuff (and lol SEGA returned me 150usd for stuff in pso2 as they had problems with mastercard and they left me the stuff bought xD) but I didn't deal with them (part of it is also that all those Russians, Europeans and Chinese were speaking English where as Japanese often don't so that might be also another difficulty)

So if that is the problem, the communication with Japanese then I guess not even MG or JAST or whoever can do anything with it. But I would still keep trying, they don't want one deal one month, ask them next month, maybe they changed their mind.

[sanahtlig]

And that I see as one of the biggest problems too, people not being informed enough before purchase. I who before every purchase look at reviews and what not know, that Saya no Uta, although being a good VN, is also very short. on EGS it says average play time 6 hours.

And then we would have DC3 that has average 25 hours and it doesn't count the extra content.

Now these are times it took for JP and they read fast, it would probably be double the time for me.

so 50usd for DC3 x rated would be very good deal for me while saya no uta for 25usd not so much.

This time I have to agree with you. Saya no Uta hits all my buttons, so I'll gladly shell out the money--but I don't kid myself. This is going to be a very expensive splurge for the amount of entertainment I'm expecting to get (and even with advance knowledge I'm still probably going to be annoyed). Demonbane was a much better deal for $40 or so. I generally expect to pay $1/hr or less for good quality games (or any entertainment really). $2/hr is pricey. More than that and I have to seriously reconsider what I'm spending my money on.

[Clephas]

One thing that must be said is that inertia has made most VN fans in the US into pirates, and it is hard to change a habit once established (make that impossible for many). Considering the oddly traditionalist nature of the Japanese eroge industry (because Japanese business culture in general is traditionalist) there is little emotional or cultural incentive for companies over there to choose nontraditional methods of licensing. Making it worse is the general apathy for the super super niche market for VNs in the US that most express and the issues with sexual content that first exploded with Rapelay. Most Japanese countries are terrified that content they send over here will earn censure and vitriol from prudish Americans and so they can't help but be wary of offers from Americans in general.

[Guest]

Piracy is only a problem for people who put all their eggs in the one basket. Selling copies when others produce copies for free is usually a bad idea (but not always). You're putting your entire business model in a stupid basket.

Piracy is not a problem for people who sell their labour instead of trying to sell the printing of copies. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/production-ig/masaaki-yuasas-kick-heart

My speculation is that, in the next 5 years, some1 in Japan is going to figure out a way to monetize the internet while creating anime or visual novels. (Famitsu and 4gamer and Dengeki are constantly posting about kickstarter now.)

One or two companies will work it out, the rest will follow suite.

The problem isn't the business model. That's an issue that the free market will figure out. The issue is that the market for the very titles you desire (such as Lovesick Puppies) that market doesn't even exist here in the West! It is an almost non-existent market. So unless you have the numbers, you can't justify the translation costs for an entire novel. And that is regardless of business model. That is why I believe the main barrier is "You are too few. You don't pay off the costs."

User consumption behaviour is irrelevant so long as you have good entrepreneurs. There is no such thing as impossible for human ingenuity and creativity. If you say there is no way, then someone else who is smarter will figure out a way (as many have already done)

So long as you have people who are willing pay to see new creations happen, and so long as you have people who will accept payment to provide new creations, then the free market will bring these two groups of people together. It is a tremendous amount of arrogance for people to say that no business model apart from the selling of copies, is possible, from now until the end of eternity. That we live and die by it. It is but the failure of the human imagination that so many people have been tricked into thinking that this must be true.

Just see the amount of literature that we already have! http://www.techdirt.com/blog/casestudies/

But first, expand the market (though fan sharing), and then you will make localization costs payable.

[Clephas]

I was pointing out the problems from a neutral perspective, as I have little invested in the localization industry or in fantranslations in general. Pointing out the difficulties and the reasons for the attitudes on the Japanese side is necessary for discovering ways to overcome those same problems. Failing to acknowledge those realities will only result in a higher likelihood of any effort to change their minds failing.

[RusAnon]

One thing that must be said is that inertia has made most VN fans in the US into pirates, and it is hard to change a habit once established (make that impossible for many).

This was proved to be wrong by Steam as well. Before it, here in Russia there were almost none non-pirated games and general sentiment was "why bother buying if you can get this for free?", but only in 2-3 years it became mainstream to buy stuff legally off Steam even if its available on local torrents. Its just a matter of availability, pricing policies and wise marketing (steam profiles with game badges and so on).

[Supah Kawaii Weeaboo]

What do I like as a fan? Variety -- I'm not tied to any art style, type of story, or format. Narrative is good, though I also appreciate gameplay. Computer games are okay, but I still lean toward console games -- less problems with compatibility, installation, and configuration. I don't mind paying about $20 US for an indie game *if* I can reinstall it later (since I've had a few too many problems with computers). I am willing to pay about $50 for a full retail game. But I won't pay the equivalent of 8800 yen for an untranslated game unless it has a full translation patch, and I am very interested in its content.

Generally speaking, if a niche product doesn't sell, then more will not be made. For instance, there won't be any more Region 1 box sets of the Galaxy Express 999 TV series. I admit that I have to watch my spending carefully, and can't just drop cash on the latest products... even if they're from my favorite small-press translation companies or indie game studios. And I have been guilty of waiting until these products are in clearance bins, which is usually when the publisher is considering them to be huge financial failures.

I bought one item each from Steam and Gamersgate, in an effort to give them a chance. But they were sitting unused on my hard drive for months. I never even started up either one. Why? Because I didn't have any interest in logging in just to play a single player game that has no online features.

It is a tremendous amount of arrogance for people to say that no business model apart from the selling of copies, is possible, from now until the end of eternity. That we live and die by it. It is but the failure of the human imagination that so many people have been tricked into thinking that this must be true.

A few individual people might be able to make money in other ways. Every now and then, I will hear about some new, revolutionary product that isn't available in my local retail stores. Unfortunately, it's still easier to crank out sequels, knock-offs, annualized games, and other easy cash-ins. (For instance, a lot of fans consider Psychonauts one of the best video games of the mid-2000s. According to the data on VGChartz, it sold only 0.21 million copies.)

[Guest]

Edit: I moved a lot of posts from this topic here because the debate took a more general turn that wasn't related to the OP. If you notice that I moved stuff wrong, please tell me.

Steve: by now i feel that i dont blame the eroge companies so much as I blame the western regulatory system and their vile and coercive hatred towards other ppl's expression. the fact that freedom of expression is Weaker in the west than it is in Japan to me, speaks volumes. free speech is supposed to be held as the crowning jewel of liberty in countries like the US. Yet over there and over here, the public cannot wait to dismantle your use of your pen and your ink. and all it takes is 50% + 1 persons.

btw i posted it on my blog http://visualnovelaer.fuwanovel.net/2013/05/kono-oozora-ni-tsubasa-wo-hirogete-by-moenovel-a-new-eroge-localization-company/

Edited May 10, 2013 by Down
Moving stuff

[Steve]

Steve: by now i feel that i dont blame the eroge companies so much as I blame the western regulatory system and their vile and coercive hatred towards other ppl's expression. the fact that freedom of expression is Weaker in the west than it is in Japan to me, speaks volumes. free speech is supposed to be held as the crowning jewel of liberty in countries like the US. Yet over there and over here, the public cannot wait to dismantle your use of your pen and your ink. and all it takes is 50% + 1 persons.

btw i posted it on my blog http://visualnovelae...zation-company/

World is a very evil and hostile place - in fact so evil that they even try to forbid escaping to virtual reality in VNs - so they can bombard you with the hatred warheads all the time

[sanahtlig]

Steve: by now i feel that i dont blame the eroge companies so much as I blame the western regulatory system and their vile and coercive hatred towards other ppl's expression. the fact that freedom of expression is Weaker in the west than it is in Japan to me, speaks volumes. free speech is supposed to be held as the crowning jewel of liberty in countries like the US. Yet over there and over here, the public cannot wait to dismantle your use of your pen and your ink. and all it takes is 50% + 1 persons.

I somewhat disagree. Free speech has a strong tradition in the West--except when sex is involved. There's a special exception to the US 1st Amendment for pornography (see the Miller test). It's simply a carryover from our Puritan heritage. Note that the strongest anti-pornography legislation (particularly anti-loli) in 1st World nations is in Britain and its former colonies.

if anyone can explain what [MoeNovel is] actually thinking and how are they benefiting from the all-ages version [of "If my Heart had Wings"]' date= please tell me. I might be extremely stupid, blind or mentally disabled because I really don't understand it.

If properly marketed, an all-ages title could reach audiences that are either blind to eroge releases or actively reject erotic works as tasteless filth. For example, an all-ages release could be a candidate for release on Steam, which would rocket the game into the spotlight.

That said, I think removing erotic content is a terrible idea and displays a lack of understanding of the current market. They're going to alienate current fans, and if they don't offset this by marketing outside the current fanbase, it's going to mean a net loss of customers. Unfortunately, I think they're relying on the experts at Mangagamer to market the game for them.

Yeah...

[Guest]

well at least if its mangagamer, u can expect ANN to cover it, and possibly even Japanator or siliconera?

sanahtlig: if the state can argue that it can twist the meaning of written law to suit their 'modern' needs, then there is no end to the amount of abuse that will result:

New Jersey Lawmaker Proposes Legislation To Ban Games With Mature Content From Public Places

States Continue To Make Photographing Or Taping Farms A Crime

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130410/01513722653/states-continue-to-make-photographing-taping-farms-crime.shtml

Maryland The Latest State To Trample The First Amendment With Quixotic Attempt To Outlaw 'Cyberbullying'

so theyll need to invent more than the Miller test in order to create new laws to fuck us, let's create a Diller, Giller, Ziller test while we're at it. Yes. That's constitutional. Because We declare it so.

...Rather there is actually a correct way to interpret the constitution and it is in how the various former states ratified it during the country's founding. http://www.tomwoods.com/blog/is-there-a-right-way-to-interpret-the-constitution/