Otome games and the difference in emotional involvement

[Turnip Sensei]

I played few Otome games recently and noticed that I unconsciously had really different approach on them. 

 

1. I didn't go into the story as focused on characters.

In VNs with routes for different characters I just go for the girl that seems most interesting (and best looking, I admit) and pursue her, sometimes blindly. This had led me to some awkward experiences like Miyako's route in Majikoi. Because I couldn't do so in Otome games I picked the choices that seemed natural and let the game choose a character for me. This was something that I have rarely experienced while reading VNs, I can't deny that my attraction to some characters twists my decision making. Following playthroughs felt more like the normal, because I was pursuing the remaining characters consciously.

 

 

2. The way I felt about the protagonist was vastly different.

I felt really protective towards the protagonist and wanted to see her through the story safely and happy. I wasn't actively trying to romance some character, which meant that emotional development that happened later felt better because I was looking it more objectively. It was more like feeling content watching from the sidelines when the protagonist finds happiness, rather than being happy as the protagonist. There's less personal involvement from my part which makes reading about the romance much more enjoyable.

 

 

I've only played a few otome games, but I was surprised how differently I experienced them. So I wanted to know if others experience otome games differently from Galge and how?

[Chronopolis]

1. I didn't go into the story as focused on characters.

 

2. The way I felt about the protagonist was vastly different.

I felt really protective towards the protagonist and wanted to see her through the story safely and happy. I wasn't actively trying to romance some character, which meant that emotional development that happened later felt better because I was looking it more objectively. It was more like feeling content watching from the sidelines when the protagonist finds happiness, rather than being happy as the protagonist. There's less personal involvement from my part which makes reading about the romance much more enjoyable.

 

 

I have felt this in novels, (but also in some VNs) anywhere where the characters importance/ties to each other are heavier then their appeal to me the reader. Basically anywhere where I've been attached to the characters but not blindly doting one of them.

 

Of course it's difficult to appreciate a romance of two people if you are just being attracted to the character in question. Recently, my impression of self-insert VNs has been that they are too bland. (To really self-insert I feel like I would have to actually write my own identity / struggles into the narrative, which is obviously impossible). I rather have a real protagonist with their own struggles. You can still get very close to the protagonist's position if you feel their emotions and irritation, and make an effort to look at their struggles from their vantage-point. It would be less likely though if you couldn't relate to or be convinced by the protagonist.

 

When I think of an otome game, while I do feel a bit protective of a female protagonist, I also am interested in the male cast. Because they are emphasized, I hope they are strong characters, or interesting in some ways. Things that are cliches unfourtantely are still cliches, but there probably are some things to be enjoyed from the different structure of the cast (group of characters).

[Darklord Rooke]

Recently, my impression of self-insert VNs has been that they are too bland. (To really self-insert I feel like I would have to actually write my own identity / struggles into the narrative, which is obviously impossible). I rather have a real protagonist with their own struggles.

 

VNs don't really do the whole self-insert thing well. The perfect self-insert, interactive story would be one with plenty of choices so you can choose how to react in each scenario. This, of course, has its own limitations but I feel Western style interactive stories are better for this sort of thing, and Western Role Playing games are going this way as well. Skyrim was a self-insert do anything you want game, really. The Sims too.

 

VNs focus on routes with fewer choices and to try and make this sort of thing a "self-insert" VN, you literally need bland "apply to everybody" dialogue and reactions, which is just boring. VNs tend to do the "set story with a few key deviations" thing well.

[Getsuya]

Awesome thread. I was actually thinking about starting up an Otome discussion thread too!

 

To be honest my first otome game involved a really adorable protagonist:

https://vndb.org/v1970

so I did feel really protective toward her and emotionally invested in who she ended up with. I didn't want the guy to treat her badly or take advantage of her... which is unfortunate since guys taking advantage of your character seems to happen a lot in otome games. Just like how the weak-willed guys in a lot of galge get tugged around by events with no will of their own, it feels like that happens a lot in otome games but it feels worse because girls dragging around guys is funny but guys dragging around girls is... well very not funny.

 

So the next game I played kind of turned that on its head. You play a beast-tamer who stumbles on a few talking animals who are princes under a curse. You work with them to help break the curse, but in the meantime you also set up a show with them and pretend to be their trainer. In this game the protagonist really felt in control of both the situation and the relationships. There's a mechanic in the game where basically you give the guys scritches in their animal forms and it's just adorable. You really feel like the guys are kind of in the palm of your hand, and it's a different feeling than anything I've gotten from a galge. In a galge it would feel more like some kind of weird slavery or forcing your affections on the girls, but as a girl doing it to a bunch of guys it just made me feel good that the girl had the relationship in her own hands rather than being forced into things. I guess I like seeing female protagonists that are in charge of their own destiny.

(incidentally that game is https://vndb.org/v4540 )

 

Otome games also showed me just how much I judge VN routes and characters by how the girl looks. In an otome game I'm not really attracted to any of the guys, I go entirely on personality and whether I'm interested in their story or not. With galge I'm much more willing to forgive a crappy route if the girl is adorable or something.

 

Otome games aren't magically better than galge, they have their flaws and tropes and shallow bits just like galge do, but I think even straight guys should take a look at some otome games because you will discover things about how you perceive VNs that will really open your eyes. Plus, some otome games are super fun and interesting too!

 

(Edit: Also I can't be me without pointing out that a large majority of otome titles are all-ages. No H-scenes. Huzzah!)

 

Edit2: Also also, they're putting out a Vita version of the second Otome game I mentioned where you can use the Vita touch controls to pet the animal-form princes squeeeee! I can't wait to muss Matheus's mane using touch controls~~~!

[Chronopolis]

VNs don't really do the whole self-insert thing well. [...]

Ah that makes sense.

 

I've actually had a fair amount of experience reading CYOA's from the touhou fandom (there are choices after most updates, and the readers vote. People reading after the fact (like me) just read the resultant story.). If the story is light/comedic with a high degree of freedom, the presence of choice gives the CYOA a game-like feel: you pick what seems fun and interesting.

 

In a serious story...if details about the protagonist are provided, the presence of choices IMO just gives a sense of agency: the MC's confusion and dilemma's are yours, but the MC still is a person if their own.

 

To really be good self-insert, I think you need a reasonably serious situation (to avoid the game-feel), choices, and a narrative that always emphasizes that it's *you* in the position. Ie. second-person is mandatory.

 

Gamebooks are a thing and are pretty much what I described: http://www.reddit.com/r/gamebooks .

I'm not sure how immersive table-top role playing is in practice...there's probably some strong parts (constant high degree of freedom, environment can react profoundly). If you get into the scenario and your character, RP is probably one of the most immersive setups.

[Supah Kawaii Weeaboo]

Otome games aren't magically better than galge, they have their flaws and tropes and shallow bits just like galge do...

 

Of course. Everything is flawed. It would be ridiculous for me to say that women's fiction is superior to men's fiction, or vice versa. There are no perfect genres, demographics, or categories. Also, I do not consider any kind of entertainment to be irredeemable.

 

The main character of "Bakudan Handan" is an interesting individual. She can take charge of a dangerous situation, and work well with other people. It's implied that she has amazing skills at deduction. She sometimes benefits by giving into her anger. Her main goal is survival, rather than finding a significant other.

 

The main character of "Date Warp" is also fascinating. She ends up trapped in an alternate dimension, but deals rather well with the challenges that she faces there.

 

In the recent past, I've struggled to like visual novels with boy x girl pairings. I keep asking myself questions such as "Do I find the main character sympathetic?" and "Is he just a Marty Stu and a stand-in for the reader?"

[Yuuko]

I have been wanting to test otome game for a while now. Anyone got good one to recommend? It can also be in Japanese

[Turnip Sensei]

I have been wanting to test otome game for a while now. Anyone got good one to recommend? It can also be in Japanese

 

Hakuoki is pretty awesome, it's the one that inspired the thread. The other I've played is Sweet Fuse, but it's not as good.

I haven't played that many, so I want recommendations too.

[Yuuko]

Okay gonna try them in the future

Is Hakuoki for pc or do I need to emulate it?

[Turnip Sensei]

Okay gonna try them in the future

Is Hakuoki for pc or do I need to emulate it?

 

There's no PC version, so do what you must.

[Stray Cat]

Just....just gonna leave this here.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGcRz9jJJCU

[Turnip Sensei]

Self insertion is not really what I experience in visual novels, it's more like role-playing a existing character, as you are given person whose actions you can influence through the choices.

 

The role-playing doesn't happen when the characters or story are strong enough. And when you can distance your own feelings from the story it usually becomes more enjoyable. It's better when story influence your feelings, rather than your feelings affecting the story. 

 

The best VNs I've read make you immersed in the story and characters as an observer, while some VNs you just go through because you happen to like the heroine. But otome games are kind of odd ball to me, since my feelings are mostly detached from the start. And that was really fascinating to me. I guess it's better to not relate too much with the main character in order to fully enjoy the story and otome games I played did just that for me.

[Nosebleed]

As someone who always detatches themselves from the story regardless of what type of story it is (even pure nukige), I always experience some form of this, although what I often notice is that narrative targated at females pays a lot more attention to the protagonist's characterization whereas other types of male oriented games usually put in zero effort into their protagonist, making you not care for them at all since they're basically all the same.

 

This is also why I much prefer reading Shoujo manga over Shounen manga, the level of detail in the character personalities is just of higher quality, even if at the end of the day you start noticing clichés and certain tropes going on in the writing as well, I always find it more refreshing in terms of how involved I can get with the character cast and I absolutely love that.

 

Otome games can be fantastic and they deserve to be recognized for it, sadly the gender based demographics really hurt them when it comes to advertisement.

 

Though I also feel like the sense of caring and protecting the character is often correlatable with the fact that a lot of otome games have the damsel in distress trope in them in which they're pretty helpless/uninteresting until one of the heroes comes, and this is something that mostly appeals to younger females and possibly the average male reader since they feel a sense of protection torwards the female. But I do legitimately think that regardless of the tropes used, characters are much more fleshed out in general in these types of games and that's a huge plus.

[Clephas]

Baldur's Gate type crpgs do a better job with self-insert than VNs do... as for emotional involvement, I'll be honest in saying that I spent more time facepalming with the average otomege than I do with the average moege, which is saying a lot.  I'll  admit that I, like most players of VNs, tend to for the heroines that interest me most from the start, but I make a habit of not reading up on VNs too much beforehand, so it is generally the one that interests me as I read the story, rather than the one I anticipating wanting to read about - exceptions are non-human heroines, since I always go there first.

 

With otomege the problem is that - even moreso than heroines in moege - the heroes tend to be stylized to a ridiculous degree... or rather, idealized.  The idealization of a lot of the male characters in otomege is most definitely worse than in moege. 

 

Another problem is that I'm fundamentally not a 'protective reader'.  I want the characters to struggle, suffer, and overcome their problems.  I hate passive main characters, and that is one of my biggest reasons for angst towards moege and otomege...

[Turnip Sensei]

With otomege the problem is that - even moreso than heroines in moege - the heroes tend to be stylized to a ridiculous degree... or rather, idealized.  The idealization of a lot of the male characters in otomege is most definitely worse than in moege. 

 

Another problem is that I'm fundamentally not a 'protective reader'.  I want the characters to struggle, suffer, and overcome their problems.  I hate passive main characters, and that is one of my biggest reasons for angst towards moege and otomege...

 

Those problems started to bug me a little after playing few routes especially the heroine doing nothing. 

 

But mostly I was just thrilled from getting so engaged, being the actual quality whatever. It has been a while since I read something really engaging and I was happy to found out that such simple thing could do it. I have no doubt that after reading more otome games and VNs in general the impact will lessen, but the initial experience was great. 

[kratoscar2008]

VNs don't really do the whole self-insert thing well. 

I disagree. Self inserting doesnt have any set of rules. 

 

For instance look at the medium as a whole were the faceless MC is still the rule rather than the exception even when they get a face they lose it at H-scenes because the japanese thinks and feel that a faceless MC is an optimal self insertion.

 

Then you have people like me that only self inserts if the MC is silent or is nameable, the faceless dude doesnt do shit for me because my "rule" for a good self insert is different. There are no set rules it always depends to what lenghts you are able to go for self inserting.

 

And then there are the "im a little girl" crowd as well.

[kamiwakai]

The best recommendation I have is Amnesia.

Its scenario is really unique and innovative, with super-well written suspense, and lots of choices.

Its BGM, dialogues and scene transition blend incredibly well and make of it one of the most immersive and dense games I ever played.

 

I found it randomly when I didnt even know what Otome game was.

I found waay later that there was romance with guys, but surprisingly I didnt felt awkward because I was reading from 3rd person

(observer of protagonist, instead of becoming it).

 

It had no silliness/fillers that all other VNs have, and also had an innovative story-telling with a tone that you will find nowhere else.

The art itself is also unique.

 

After finishing Amnesia, I learned one thing: Otome games are unusual and will show you great stories that you will never find in mainstream visual novels.