Anime as Art

[Zalor]

I have considered anime a legitimate art form for several years now. There are animes out there that have influenced and helped structure my views of life on an equivalent level that literature has. What I'm suggesting is should Anime be respected on the level that literature and film are? Should there be courses that analyze anime in the same fashion that there are courses that analyze literature and film? I say yes. I consider anime to be so brilliant because it is a combination of visual art, animation, music, and story telling. You could write a comprehensive paper on the significance of an art style in an anime, or choose to focus exclusively on the story, or focus on how the animation, story and music all harmonize with each other. There are many things to think about when analyzing and interpreting anime precisely because it is a combination of multiple arts, which is why I firmly believe it should be respected as such.   

[Nosebleed]

To put it simply, I agree with you when classifying Anime as Art.

However there's some debateable things in what you said. I can't agree with "The ultimate form of art" as ultimate implies perfection and in the real world perfection does not exist or else everyone would see Anime as art and follow it and appreciate it, so I can not consider it an ultimate form of art. But it does have artistic value when used properly. 

Just as movies are classified as Art, Anime deserves the same title since it utilizes the same medium which is Television (This includes any stuff that involves a screen that displays moving frames). And just as a movie can be bad, Anime can be bad as well. For Anime to be considered art you have to first look at the defenition of the word art. What are you looking for when you watch anime? Visual aesthetics? Philosophical value? Good story writing? All these can be considered art.

But if you're looking for consolidation then yes Anime can be art, not just visually but it can have a powerful message and be inovative. Just like you I was also influenced by certain Anime that completely changed some of my prespectives regarding the world. However there's also Anime that only exists for mere entertainment and that's sadly a big chunk of the industry.

Nonetheless there will always be great artists and script writers that manage to bring out the best of the business and create a consolidation of elements that will leave an impact on the viewer. Something that hasn't been seen before. 

That for me is Art, Inovation, Originality, Consolidation and Impact.

And Anime can very well have all these elements.

[Down]

I don't believe there is such a thing as a medium of art intrinsically better than another. (I agree that any medium of creativity is art by the way)

Different affinities for different people, certainly, medium better suited to certain stories, maybe, but nothing as absolute as anime being the ultimate form of art or whatever. 

 

I also believe that the ratio of good works for bad works of animation as a medium is far from being the best one, but that's a different thing. And a very difficult thing to judge, too.

[Zalor]

 

 

 I can't agree with "The ultimate form of art" as ultimate implies perfection and in the real world perfection does not exist or else everyone would see Anime as art and follow it and appreciate it, so I can not consider it an ultimate form of art.

 

Before I get misunderstood any further, when I said "ultimate", I meant in the way that it combines multiple art forms, not that I think it is better then other forms of art. I repeat, I do NOT think anime is better then other forms of art.

 

 

 

 

 

I also believe that the ratio of good works for bad works of animation as a medium is far from being the best one, but that's a different thing. And a very difficult thing to judge, too.

 

Actually in terms of a ratio, anime may not be that far off. In terms of numbers there is a lot less anime, and only a few great anime. But while numerically there are more great books then anime, proportionally there is such large collection of books, (and so many of them that are mediocre or bad) that the ratio for literature: mediocre fiction, could be pretty small as well. In other words as someone else said, most mediums of art only have a few or limited selection of great works that actually accomplish the full potential of the art form. And I would argue that there are some anime out there that have already successfully taken advantage of the potential of such a medium.

[Nosebleed]

Before I get misunderstood any further, when I said "ultimate", I meant in the way that it combines multiple art forms, not that I think it is better then other forms of art. 

That's a better explanation but even then ultimate still implies something superior, the way i see it, something is either art or it's not art. There's different types of art but there'll never be one that's better than the other because they're all art.

[Zalor]

That's a better explanation but even then ultimate still implies something superior, the way i see it, something is either art or it's not art. There's different types of art but there'll never be one that's better than the other because they're all art.

 

Point taken and I agree with it. I edited the sentence and deleted "ultimate" from the sentence.

[AceAttorney]

I hate that term, "art." It seems so many people nowadays misinterpret it as being something profound or having a deeper purpose, but this is simply not the case. Art is really anything creative produced by a person that appeals to other people. Cinematics is an art form. Knock-knock jokes are an art form. The messy crayon scribble you made as a kid? That's art.

 

So yes, I would consider anime as an art form. Even the bad anime. It's important to realize that being bad =/= not art, it simply means being a "bad or ineffective work of art," at least in the eyes of the beholder.

 

I kinda strayed off-topic, but that's just something that has always bothered me.

[Zalor]

I hate that term, "art." It seems so many people nowadays misinterpret it as being something profound or having a deeper purpose, but this is simply not the case. Art is really anything creative produced by a person that appeals to other people. Cinematics is an art form. Knock-knock jokes are an art form. The messy crayon scribble you made as a kid? That's art.

 

So yes, I would consider anime as an art form. Even the bad anime. It's important to realize that being bad =/= not art, it simply means being a "bad or ineffective work of art," at least in the eyes of the beholder.

 

I kinda strayed off-topic, but that's just something that has always bothered me.

 

No it's fine if you disagree with the way I used the term "art". However, while I respect your contribution I do disagree with you. I take my literature, poetry, film, and even anime pretty seriously. Hamlet, The Inferno, Brave New World are all examples of art because they provide insight into a culture and the human condition. They are works that get you to understand, think, and question cultural values and/or what it means to be human. In a similar sense, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Monster, and Kaiji are all examples of animes that are art, because they provide meaning that is beyond surface value. By your definition Twilight is art, and if that were the case then why don't people read Twilight in literature classes? Short answer: because it's not art, not even a contemporary Lit class would read it.

[Down]

No it's fine if you disagree with the way I used the term "art". However, while I respect your contribution I do disagree with you. I take my literature, poetry, film, and even anime pretty seriously. Hamlet, The Inferno, Brave New World are all examples of art because they provide insight into a culture and the human condition. They are works that get you to understand, think, and question cultural values and/or what it means to be human. In a similar sense, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Monster, and Kaiji are all examples of animes that are art, because they provide meaning that is beyond surface value. By your definition Twilight is art, and if that were the case then why don't people read Twilight in literature classes? Short answer: because it's not art, not even a contemporary Lit class would read it.

 

That doesn't really make sense. I mean, you argue about anime being art as a whole, but there are tons of candidates out there to be the Twilight of animation. Yet books are art too. So how can Twilight not be art?

 

And going by your definition, works meant purely for entertainment isn't art. Don't you think comedy is art? That making people laugh is a form of artistic creation?

 

Defining art is very difficult and nobody agrees on it anyway. There's a whole branch of philosophy about it. I'm far from being knowledgeable enough to debate the details of it, but I think anyone having some intellectual honesty would agree that anime can be considered as art.

[Zalor]

That doesn't really make sense. I mean, you argue about anime being art as a whole, but there are tons of candidates out there to be the Twilight of animation. Yet books are art too. So how can Twilight not be art?

 

And going by your definition, works meant purely for entertainment isn't art. Don't you think comedy is art? That making people laugh is a form of artistic creation?

 

I'm arguing that I think anime should be respected as an artistic medium on an intellectual and academic level. Books are a medium of art, and literature is studied as art. Twilight might be published on paper and technically be a book, but it most certainly isn't literature, and therefore isn't art. Art is something earned for being insightful. If I wrote a crappy thriller novel that had no depth beyond entertaining people for a few hours, then it isn't art. So no, I don't think works that strive to merely be entertaining to be art. Entertainment is entertainment, and art is art.

 

There are comedies out there that are insightful, and that can qualify as art. To use an anime example; Welcome to the NHK is really funny, but also delves into some really serious,bleak and dark thoughts that are insightful to the subcultures and individuals that the anime analyzes. Art has got to have some deeper meaning to it, other wise it is entertainment. Not that I think there is anything wrong with entertainment, but I want to draw a distinction between art, and entertainment because there certainly is a difference. A professor of mine once told me he loves junk food, and that entertainment is the equivalent of junk food, but you have to eat healthy as well, and art is a healthy meal. 

[Wahfuu]

Art is something earned for being insightful.

No, it's not, actually. Attaching a definition to the word 'art' is like attaching a definition to the 'meaning of life'. It's an incredibly murky, undefinitive and highly subjective area which has absolutely no room for objective definitions.

Infact I'd say that trying to take a highground via defining what qualifies as artwork and what doesn't, you go against the very spirit and freedom of artwork itself. It's incredibly pretentious.

Using that logic, 'bad art' does not exsist. It does. If you didn't like it, if it was trashy, poorly written and didn't affect you, that's called 'bad art'. Saying 'It didn't have a deeper meaning, ergo, isn't art' is really, really absurd. Criticism is not the only thing about artwork.

 

Also: I know quite a few people that have read Twilight in class and there are essays on that book, so thats wrong.

[Zalor]

It's incredibly pretentious.

Using that logic, 'bad art' does not exsist. It does. If you didn't like it, if it was trashy, poorly written and didn't affect you, that's called 'bad art'. Saying 'It didn't have a deeper meaning, ergo, isn't art' is really, really absurd. Criticism is not the only thing about artwork.

 

Also: I know quite a few people that have read Twilight in class and there are essays on that book, so thats wrong.

 

I acknowledge to a certain extent that that merely trying to define art is nearly impossible, and most people who do end up being labeled as "pretentious", and to a certain extent I will even admit, I am a bit pretentious. However, this stems from the belief that I refuse to accept that art is based entirely on individual opinion. Why isn't art judged merely on opinion, for the same reason I'm about to disprove that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". When I was around 12 or 13 my friends and I would do what many males do at that age and discuss the aesthetics of the girls in our school. I remember this one time I said that some girl or another was really attractive, (actually, realistically I probably said something like, "she's hot"), and all my friends disagreed with that statement, (must have bad taste in women or something). Now, re looking at that that anecdote with some understanding of cultural anthropology, I can say with confidence that beauty is heavily based on culture. What we define as beautiful can vary from culture to culture, and generally cultural views of beauty out weigh the views of an individual. In other words if my views of beauty as a 13 year old were at odds with my culture's views of beauty, then my opinion has very little value. So even if my admittedly extremely pretensions arguments are invalid, I will never believe that art is defined by individual opinion, but rather culturally.

 

Shakespeare's great, and so is Robert Frost, but to a certain respect their greatness is result of the cultural view that they are great artists. To me art is only art if the intellectual and academic culture respects and acknowledges it as art. Hence why the corner stone of my argument in the OP is for anime to be studied in universities and colleges.

 

I suppose Twilight does have a strong enough influence on popular culture to deserve some recognition. But alright, maybe Twilight specifically is getting some recognition, but there were popular fiction novels 50 years ago that have been long forgotten. Why? because while merely entertaining, they didn't have the intellectual depth to be respected by the academic culture and community.

 

Tl;dr Individual opinion doesn't define art or beauty, culture does. Some people hate Shakespeare, but their opinion has little value because it is over ruled by culture. And culturally, Shakespeare is widely revered as a genius. 

[Wahfuu]

I acknowledge to a certain extent that that merely trying to define art is nearly impossible, and most people who do end up being labeled as "pretentious", and to a certain extent I will even admit, I am a bit pretentious. However, this stems from the belief that I refuse to accept that art is based entirely on individual opinion. Why isn't art judged merely on opinion, for the same reason I'm about to disprove that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". When I was around 12 or 13 my friends and I would do what many males do at that age and discuss the aesthetics of the girls in our school. I remember this one time I said that some girl or another was really attractive, (actually, realistically I probably said something like, "she's hot"), and all my friends disagreed with that statement, (must have bad taste in women or something). Now, re looking at that that anecdote with some understanding of cultural anthropology, I can say with confidence that beauty is heavily based on culture. What we define as beautiful can vary from culture to culture, and generally cultural views of beauty out weigh the views of an individual. In other words if my views of beauty as a 13 year old were at odds with my culture's views of beauty, then my opinion has very little value. So even if my admittedly extremely pretensions arguments are invalid, I will never believe that art is defined by individual opinion, but rather culturally.

 

Shakespeare's great, and so is Robert Frost, but to a certain respect their greatness is result of the cultural view that they are great artists. To me art is only art if the intellectual and academic culture respects and acknowledges it as art. Hence why the corner stone of my argument in the OP is for anime to be studied in universities and colleges.

 

I suppose Twilight does have a strong enough influence on popular culture to deserve some recognition. But alright, maybe Twilight specifically is getting some recognition, but there were popular fiction novels 50 years ago that have been long forgotten. Why? because while merely entertaining, they didn't have the intellectual depth to be respected by the academic culture and community.

 

Tl;dr Individual opinion doesn't define art or beauty, culture does. Some people hate Shakespeare, but their opinion has little value because it is over ruled by culture. And culturally, Shakespeare is widely revered as a genius. 

If I were to really get into this I'd probably end up rambling at length about society and ethics and I really don't want to do that, so I'll try to keep it short.

If culture is the thing that defines art, then VN's cannot be art by definition. Most people consider VN's to be nothing but porn games and self inserts into harem scenarios. Everyone around the VN medium knows that's not true, but hey, culture defines art, right? Our opinion has little value because it's "overruled by culture." Switch words around and this is exactly what you are doing by rejecting pieces of work that other people could like/find meaning in simply because you don't find it good enough.

What you are talking about isn't the beauty and freedom of artwork; it's the sacrifice of individual creativity to conform to society standards of what is looked at as 'art'. That isn't art, that's marketing.

So no, I do not believe for a second that culture dictates the definition of artwork. Culture dictates what is 'good' to consider artwork, what is popular to consider artwork. Not what <is> art. Something as creative and as free as art can't be defined by something as silly as tyranny of the majority.

[Zalor]

If I we're to really get into this I'd probably end up rambling at length about society and ethics and I really don't want to do that, so I'll try to keep it short.

If culture is the thing that defines art, then VN's cannot be art by definition. Most people consider VN's to be nothing but porn games and self inserts into harem scenarios. Everyone around the VN medium knows that's not true, but hey, culture defines art, right? Our opinion has little value because it's "overruled by culture." Switch words around and this is exactly what you are doing by rejecting pieces of work that other people could like/find meaning in simply because you don't find it good enough.

What you are talking about isn't the beauty and freedom of artwork; it's the sacrifice of individual creativity to conform to society standards of what is looked at as 'art'. That isn't art, that's marketing.

So no, I do not believe for a second that culture dictates the definition of artwork. Culture dictates what is 'good' to consider artwork, what is popular to consider artwork. Not what <is> art. Something as creative and as free as art can't be defined by something as silly as tyranny of the majority.

 

It maybe a bit surprising, but I do agree with you on certain aspects. The whole reason I brought this topic up, is that anime isn't considered art now, but that should change. Anime can be as smart, deep, and insightful as literature, so can VN's, but culturally, for the most part they are viewed as either children's cartoons, or as porn games. If culture's views of anime and VNs stay this way, then people will maintain and accept these incorrect notions. But everyone here knows that VN's and anime are so much more, that is why we need to alter cultures current, and misconceived notions. Yes, we can say that Swan Song, (or some other well written VN) is great, but our opinions do not matter if culture's conception of VNs doesn't change. Culture can be wrong, but it's the judge, and what it says goes. Therefore it is our duty to correct cultures views so it doesn't maintain it's flawed views of anime and VNs. I am also arguing that the best way to accomplish this cultural recognition of anime and VNs, is for the academic community to acknowledge them.

 

Side Note: You may be right that I am mistaken in only recognizing good art as art. Anything that someone creates through expression is arguably art. But I only really care about good art, and since great art does exist through anime and VN's, I would like them to be culturally and intellectually respected as such.

[Wahfuu]

Oh I kinda went offtopic a bit, my fault.

Anyways, I do agree on that aspect. Niche artwork is still artwork and has great stories to tell to the open minded people willing to listen to them. That's why I said what I said. There is a bit of a culture barrier from anime being considered a true way of expression, but you'd be amazed at all the variety and discussion about certain anime. It's hard to say if it'll ever break into the educational system, though. The stigma attached to it might be too much.

Not so much for VN's though. Remember our biggest official outlet (MangaGamer) constantly vomits out porn games so they can stay financially afloat. Those are some deeply ingrained prenotions about them.
 

 

 

Side Note: You may be right that I am mistaken in only recognizing good art as art. Anything that someone creates through expression is arguably art. But I only really care about good art, and since great art does exist through anime and VN's, I would like them to be culturally and intellectually respected as such.

That's really subjective territory and kind of what I wanted to clarify with all that is all. Hope I didn't come off as a twat.

[Zalor]

Oh I kinda went offtopic a bit, my fault.

Anyways, I do agree on that aspect. Niche artwork is still artwork and has great stories to tell to the open minded people willing to listen to them. That's why I said what I said. There is a bit of a culture barrier from anime being considered a true way of expression, but you'd be amazed at all the variety and discussion about certain anime. It's hard to say if it'll ever break into the educational system, though. The stigma attached to it might be too much.

Not so much for VN's though. Remember our biggest official outlet (MangaGamer) constantly vomits out porn games so they can stay financially afloat. Those are some deeply ingrained prenotions about them.

 

 

I agree that anime has become way more acceptable in recent years. Maybe I'm a bit too much of an optimist, but I think it could have an academic breakthrough, I'm just not sure how it would be done. The real concern is with Visual Novels. Sex sells in the west, but anime sex doesn't. Many great visual novels usually contain sex merely because sex scenes make the game more marketable in Japan. I am 100% convinced that the only reason Kanon has any sex scenes was to increase sales. Unfortunately, this has a complete opposite affect in the west. Even if a visual novel has a single 5 minute sex scene that instantly makes it unmarketable here. This is a huge shame because visual novels have SO much potential for story telling. A medium of story telling that combines visuals, audio, and words; you would think the very concept would sell itself...

 

Now I'm straying off topic a bit.

[Darklord Rooke]

. A medium of story telling that combines visuals, audio, and words; you would think the very concept would sell itself...

 

Now I'm straying off topic a bit.

 

Japanese and the West have different story-telling techniques which will keep them from being a success in the West. An example I like to use is bloat (because it's easily identifiable), bloat isn't accepted in the West but there is a ton of bloat in visual novels. Visual novels need to have tighter writing before they'll sell in the West.

 

It's also the price point. Visual novels are aimed at young people, but they're damn expensive. You're paying the same price as a game for what is essentially a novel. Movies are cheaper, you can buy seasons of your favourite TV show for cheaper, young people don't have a lot of cash to splash around.

 

And I suppose it's also the sex.

[Zastie]

I whole-heartedly agree that anime is an art, and a dang good one at that. However, lots of people continue to view all anime as kids cartoons, which is pretty sad. I truly wish it weren't so but it's true, at the moment lots of people just view it as nothing more than a cartoon show and won't give it a second thought, I don't think anime will be considered as the art it is for at least a while now. Anime shows have gotten more feels out of me than any action-packed film/show that've been released in America, most stuff in America now days are just action that isn't even close to art.

[cryofrzd]

Starts reminiscing the dialogues in Rin route in Katawa Shoujo, when a definition or a possible boundary art was discussed.

 

"In short, art defines itself. It simply cannot be contained to a definition from the outside, since the boundaries of art expand and contract from forces within." – Nomiya the art teacher.

 

So I guess you cannot say what's art and what isn't because no established standard definition exists, or at least a strict concrete one I know of. For some including me anime may be considered art.

 

And then onto the question if knowledge about anime can fit into an academic discipline or at least not be considered trivial. I guess now its regarded too trivial by too many, but that can change, maybe if it gets a more important role in society and for more people.

 

Remember that computer science was not regarded as an academic discipline in the 70's and many newer forms of fine art or moving pictures were also in the beginning considered trivial.

[InvertMouse]

The term art itself is probably subjective, so I would never say your definition is right or wrong. Yes, I guess it can feel disrespectful to say a bad product is unworthy of being called art. Of course, that's just how we're going to be by nature. I can certainly be guilty of it.

 

For example, with say K-On, I find it entertaining, but I've never stopped to wonder if it's art, because it never inspires or changes my thinking in any way. It's nice to watch. Shows like Madoka I would immediate accept as an artform. The same thing with Sola, Narcissu and Tokyo Magnitude for me. We'll all be disagreeing until the end of time, though.

 

We want to say every series is an art. At the same time, maybe that's disrespectful to the works that really put in the experience, time and money required to stand out. It's hard to judge .

 

 

If we want to talk about the academic potential of anime and VN, that's going to be tough as well. Visual novel--eroge--pretty much speaks of itself. "Oh it's hentai get that thing away from me!" (then looks it up secretly at home) As for anime, I've dropped many from this season. I can't recall their names, but there's one about a dude who has to teach alien girls about otaku culture. Then there's Yuushibu, and that one about girls wrestling. They might make a bit of money, but show them to an academic and they'll go oh so that's anime. Never waste my time with this again.

 

It's the same case with games. So long as games like GTA V and Call of Duty continue to come out, the general public will continue to decide that's what games are. Shooting games that cause shootings in real life.

[garejei]

Well, I dunno. In the flood of generic shounen/moe/harem and fanservice, I find it increasingly hard to take anime seriously. 

 

When I think art, I think novels like Orwell's 1984, for example, which imo is one of literature's great masterpieces. It's hard to find something of that level in anime (and please don't bring up Psycho Pass, while I enjoyed it, it doesn't even hold a candle to Orwell).

 

You could probably find exceptions (Satoshi Kon), but they would be few and far between.

[Down]

Well, I dunno. In the flood of generic shounen/moe/harem and fanservice, I find it increasingly hard to take anime seriously. 

 

When I think art, I think novels like Orwell's 1984, for example, which imo is one of literature's great masterpieces. It's hard to find something of that level in anime (and please don't bring up Psycho Pass, while I enjoyed it, it doesn't even hold a candle to Orwell).

 

You could probably find exceptions (Satoshi Kon), but they would be few and far between.

 

Well, I'm not going to go into namedropping mode, but there are plenty of good anime with serious themes out there.

This aside, there are other points where you can look for artistic value, such as storytelling, animation or realization. A clever realization or an efficient storytelling can bring very good series that don't necessarily have messages to convey or "serious" themes. 

 

For example, while 1984 is great for its thought-provoking themes that pretty much made the basis of all dystopian science-fiction, I don't think its way of storytelling is particularly amazing, nor does it have an incredible writing. 

[Zalor]

Well, I dunno. In the flood of generic shounen/moe/harem and fanservice, I find it increasingly hard to take anime seriously. 

 

Obviously there are bad works in any art form, just like how there are bad paintings and bad poetry. But I think anime as a medium of story telling, using drawn images, incorporation of music and movement, has lots of potential and some anime have reached that potential. Monster comes to mind when I think of an anime that is very deep and thought proving. Monster is on par with great litereature. I would also argue the same of Berserk, Kaji, Neon Genesis Evangelion, and a few others. Great animes do exist, just like how great literature exists. However, most books, films, and anime are bad,but there are a minority that achieve something absolutely genius and deserve to be analyzed and revered. 

 

 

 

 

 

If we want to talk about the academic potential of anime and VN, that's going to be tough as well. Visual novel--eroge--pretty much speaks of itself. "Oh it's hentai get that thing away from me!" (then looks it up secretly at home) As for anime, I've dropped many from this season. I can't recall their names, but there's one about a dude who has to teach alien girls about otaku culture. Then there's Yuushibu, and that one about girls wrestling. They might make a bit of money, but show them to an academic and they'll go oh so that's anime. Never waste my time with this again.

 

I never watch currently airing anime. If I were going to recommend an anime to an academic, I would pick something like Monster, Berserk, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, etc. Anime deserves to be respected on the academic level because there are anime out there that are brilliant and that have proven that anime is capable of deep and sophisticated story telling.

[Guest]

That's a really interesting question.

 

First of all I think we all agree anime is unique, it's mostly a japanese product and has a universe of it's own.

 

Well is it art ?

I would say it depends.

I consider something to be art when it brings something new, would it be a feeling or a story or a different kind of drawing or realization.

I would really instist on the quality of animation and overall harmony of the Movie or series.

 

When I watch art i feel something.

 

And i would count generally anime as art, but there are for sure Master pieces.

 

To sum it up I would say that if you use it's full potential, anime is an art for sure, but it's an art to master.

I'm not a pro but i'm quite able to tell when something is missing in an anime. (Or maybe it's personal opinion)

 

So Yes, anime CAN be an art.

[MellowMadman11]

Art is just as subjective as culture. Art only has intrinsic value to the person who created it. To everyone else it's value is a matter of their personal opinion. Likewise, culture is established by the values and traditions that are accepted by a countries population en mass.