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a way to make visual novels more popular in the west


Lumaria
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25 minutes ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said:

so what? you keep saying things like this but are you trying to say that having an otaku mindset somehow makes you less worthy of participating in a discussion?

Yes.....it objectively does. 

You can't possibly think of any positive or real ways to integrate Visual novels toward the west with an otaku mindset. It really demand for one to take a real step back from your interests to really see the potential of what VN has to offer.

 

I'm not saying you can't be an otaku to participate inn the discussion. But you aren't going anywhere if you rely on that otaku mind set.

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10 minutes ago, Lumaria said:

Yes.....it objectively does.

look, i think i understand what you're trying to achieve with this discussion and that's very noble and all but it doesn't give you the right to defame people with opinions like they have, with statements like this.

just saying

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1 hour ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said:

look, i think i understand what you're trying to achieve with this discussion and that's very noble and all but it doesn't give you the right to defame people with opinions like they have, with statements like this.

just saying

I don't think you have understood. I think the idea only a very very small handful truly understood. 

The whole point is to push away from the otaku perspective. I'm not defaming anyone's opinion. but it defeats the purpose of going against it. 

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6 hours ago, Lumaria said:

Yes.....it objectively does. 

You can't possibly think of any positive or real ways to integrate Visual novels toward the west with an otaku mindset. It really demand for one to take a real step back from your interests to really see the potential of what VN has to offer.

 

I'm not saying you can't be an otaku to participate inn the discussion. But you aren't going anywhere if you rely on that otaku mind set.

 

Why do VNs have to integrate into the west? Why do they have to become mainstream? If you don't like otaku stuff then fine, don't play it, watch it, read it, etc. However it's not your place to decide what gets produced, it's the consumers. If the majority of consumers like bishoujo and moe type stuff then that's what will be produced. If you don't like that type of stuff, fine, but don't go and complain about how visual novels need to change to cater to people who don't even play them nor care about them. 

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9 hours ago, Lumaria said:

Yes.....it objectively does. 

You can't possibly think of any positive or real ways to integrate Visual novels toward the west with an otaku mindset. It really demand for one to take a real step back from your interests to really see the potential of what VN has to offer.

 

I'm not saying you can't be an otaku to participate inn the discussion. But you aren't going anywhere if you rely on that otaku mind set.

Do you want to start a company or something? looks like you so tryhard with this west thingy.

"But you aren't going anywhere if you rely on that otaku mind set." Otaku mindset? then what mindset that most people in the west have?

Gamer mindset? Maniac mindset? Will-buy-if-cheap mindset?

2 hours ago, Zenophilious said:

This-thread-gave-me-cancer-60s-spiderman

Im surprised this still going *grab popcorn

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15 hours ago, Lumaria said:

You don't understand that VNs will never explicitly be popular but at least an accepted medium.

On 22.01.2016 at 0:40 PM, Lumaria said:

I think i have a really good way visual novels can be really popular in the west. and I mean immediately popular.

Answer: make visual novels meant for people who don't play visual novels

There is one thing that visual novels have continuously done that makes it harder to get into, especially for the west. They are simply not approachable.they don't appeal to the every day person (key note, person, not gamer, or anime fan).

But how to realistically make VNs more popular in the west in the immediate future? Actively make a campaign about it. Openly tell everyone you are making a VN that is meant for them.

You were talking about making VNs "really popular" and "immediately popular" among Western audience, by creating ones that will be "approachable" by an "every day person" and "meant for that audience". You said this yourself, quite explicitly. But now you are saying that you just want them to be an "accepted medium"? They ARE an accepted medium already - they are even present on Steam, and non-Japanese creators have been making their own VNs for a while.

On 22.01.2016 at 5:07 PM, Lumaria said:

I see a community so hard wired into what they like, they are willing to kick out or push away  anything that is different because they are threatened by an idea that is very promising. They don't even give any real feedback as to why this would be bad.

I said quite a few times that I would love to see something different (like Battletech or Warhammer setting for example, obviously with fitting Western artstyle), and that the idea is indeed very promising. But I also explained why I think it's unlikely that something like this will be created anytime soon. And I did say why I think making VNs "really popular in the west" (your words) would be bad.

But you simply dismiss everything I say as some "otaku thinking" or whatever, without actually addressing any of my arguments. Do you define real feedback as: "Yes Master! I 100% agree with your wise words!"?

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9 hours ago, Lumaria said:

I don't think you have understood. I think the idea only a very very small handful truly understood. 

The whole point is to push away from the otaku perspective. I'm not defaming anyone's opinion. but it defeats the purpose of going against it. 

i know that's the point. you think that a selfish, 'i just like cute catgirls' mentality is bad and want to plant the suggestion that we should be more open to new ideas and see this medium as something more and something broader than we do currently

as i said, and even if i'm not completely accurate with that summary, that's a noble goal, but i've seen you make plenty of comments that i'm pretty sure have hurt the people you directed them at. 

that's not the way to change people's minds, is all i'm saying

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@Chuee  when I hear myself I hear: "why should we allow other people to enjoy their personal tastes in a medium I love." Or "why should we stop discriminating to the west". 

Thats what I hear. You can assume ibdont like Japanese culture. But I appreciate Japan a little different then the otaku. For one I know Japan's strengths and weaknesses. 

Look up "I hate weeaboos" video from trailer Drake. The last couple minutes is what I wholeheartedly agree with.  

 

@Pabloc  what you quoted and what I said are not the same thing. And what you interpreted is wrong. Especially after I clarified. 

I don't believe that you would love to see a western VN. When you actively look for the common misconception, where you generalize Westerners negatively and western culture. You have yet to find any reedming qualities of the idea of a western VN.

 

@Dizzy people here are so otaku they act like they are out of touch where they come from.

Are you incapable of understanding that people have different tastes? Do people think there is a legion of doom  of anti otaku haters? And if so do you think they share the same interest? 

@john 'mr. customer' smith there is a difference between saying "I personally like Japanese stuff." And "I am against this because I like Japanese stuff" 

 

And that is a huge issue. If they get offended, and can't open their minds or have gears turn. Then good for them. They've proven their ignorance. Why keep them here only to devalue the topic with their selfish ways with no intent to learn?

 

Because that's what they are really asking me when they ask me seriously dumb questions. And I mean seriously dumb. There is no forethought whatsoever in these questions. 

 

Can you imagine someone actually ask you face to face "why should we broaden our horizon?" Or "why should we appeal to other tastes too". Why should we make it accessible to others". 

 

The obvious answer: because you look like an ignorant selfish person who cares more about keeping his preferences then to allow others to access it. 

 

This is the answer I've been avoiding but it needs to be said. Look, if you truly want VNs to be more popular in the west, then stop thinking that you will automatically gain more people to appreciate the same otaku things. It will be very likely that  someone may have no interest in it. It is also likely that some may integrate into it too. 

 

But there's less room for backlash on working with a medium with less tropes, stereotypes, and archetypes. 

 

 

 

I mean it, if you have no interest whatsoever in the idea of non Japanese VNs. Then leave. You don't have to be in this thread. The entire forum is catered to you.

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12 hours ago, Chuee said:

 

Why do VNs have to integrate into the west? Why do they have to become mainstream? If you don't like otaku stuff then fine, don't play it, watch it, read it, etc. However it's not your place to decide what gets produced, it's the consumers. If the majority of consumers like bishoujo and moe type stuff then that's what will be produced. If you don't like that type of stuff, fine, but don't go and complain about how visual novels need to change to cater to people who don't even play them nor care about them. 

If he doesn't like it, it's fully within his right to complain. 

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@Lumariai give up. you're right. i really think you are. just allow me to give you some honest advice

if your intention is to change people's minds, then getting rid of narrow-minded people this way seems a bit ironic. i do think there are ways to approach these people. maybe you could try summarizing your opinions from a more positive perspective by, for example, writing an article about the strengths and potentials of the vn medium as you define it. i think that could change more minds than simply ranting about what's wrong and how things should be, no offense meant

and another thing, i don't think your interpretation of the motto: 'make visual novels popular in the west' is entirely justified. i imagine (someone back me up here) that fuwa was formed not primarily to actively increase popularity of visual novels, but more to simply create a positive environment where people randomly introduced to, interested in and/or uncertain about vns could go to find out more, and i think it does that very well

good luck

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A way to make visual novels more popular in the west is for news sites to actually treat them like proper games and honestly a lot of the more story driven ones have already gotten slightly more accessible by simply having both an 18+ and an All Ages version of their games. The biggest problem with visual novels is that they cost too much in the eyes of the average consumer so lowering cost might actually help people become more aware of them.

You ask for a way to make visual novels more popular in the west but I argue they already are a lot more popular than they were a few years ago. 

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44 minutes ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said:

@Lumariai give up. you're right. i really think you are. just allow me to give you some honest advice

if your intention is to change people's minds, then getting rid of narrow-minded people this way seems a bit ironic. i do think there are ways to approach these people. maybe you could try summarizing your opinions from a more positive perspective by, for example, writing an article about the strengths and potentials of the vn medium as you define it. i think that could change more minds than simply ranting about what's wrong and how things should be, no offense meant

and another thing, i don't think your interpretation of the motto: 'make visual novels popular in the west' is entirely justified. i imagine (someone back me up here) that fuwa was formed not primarily to actively increase popularity of visual novels, but more to simply create a positive environment where people randomly introduced to, interested in and/or uncertain about vns could go to find out more, and i think it does that very well

good luck

Keep in mind, I Behan with open minded discussion. Everything about Visual novels says it's a versatile medium. And the people who come in and are fully admitting they do not want to be enlightened is a bad choice. 

 

Even if what you claim is true about community selling VNs more, you all did a horrible job. Look at the first page and tell me they couldn't have handled the idea better?

 

I've been actively trying to do it. But there are distinct barriers that stop people from seeing the real picture.

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can you tell me, then, what you actually want to achieve specifically within this forum?

 

45 minutes ago, Lumaria said:

Even if what you claim is true about community selling VNs more, you all did a horrible job. Look at the first page and tell me they couldn't have handled the idea better?

 

i don't understand what you're saying here, is this a comment about fuwa's lack of success in its premise? first page of what? this forum isn't just a first page, it's what you get when you, for example, type into google: 'top 50 vns', stuff like that. it's a place to get information, preferably positive. how has it done that horribly?

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14 minutes ago, john 'mr. customer' smith said:

can you tell me, then, what you actually want to achieve specifically within this forum?

 

i don't understand what you're saying here, is this a comment about fuwa's lack of success in its premise? first page of what? this forum isn't just a first page, it's what you get when you, for example, type into google: 'top 50 vns', stuff like that. it's a place to get information, preferably positive. how has it done that horribly?

Come up with VN ideas and Even if a completely hobby approach,  you know. Make it an open event. 

 

Second I'm talking about this thread. The first page of this thread. 

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2 minutes ago, Lumaria said:

Come up with VN ideas and Even if a completely hobby approach,  you know. Make it an open event. 

 

Second I'm talking about this thread. The first page of this thread. 

i see, well i think a lot of people took that the wrong way, as in interpreting it as 'change', whereas you meant 'diversify'

i still don't think you should have reacted to that so negatively though, i think they were offended by how harsh you were about the current state of vns in the west

i don't actually think the majority of this community is narrow minded, i just think this discussion started wrong, with people acting (perhaps unjustly) defensively and you interpreting that as narrow-mindedness.

perhaps you could start over with a new thread, and this time actually calling it 'come up with new vn ideas'. also, i know i keep repeating myself, but please try to talk more positively, i'm sure you'll find us acting much more open-mindedly if you do. 

i hope i'm still making sense here

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@Lumaria I don't believe that you want to make VNs more accepted on the West. You're just a [insert random pejorative term] and that mindset makes you objectively less worthy of participating in a discussion. You didn't understand what I said, and misinterpreted everything. All things that you say are completely wrong.

We can "discuss" things like that if you want, but I don't think it would be productive. I still don't get what exactly is your point here.

More diversity? Yeah, that would be great. But... aren't VNs quite diverse already? Sure, most of them are worthless, generic moeges, but the same can be said about any other medium. Most of everything is crap. You say that I'm generalizing Westen culture (which is a misunderstanding on your part, as I did clarify that I only hate modern and mianstream Western culture - and yeah, I do find it worse than shit-grade Japanese anime/manga/VNs), but you are generalizing VNs yourself.

Oh, you don't believe that I would love to see a Western VN? Then tell me, why did I actually like https://vndb.org/v10754https://vndb.org/v11705 (adaptation of a story written by American writer), or https://vndb.org/v14125 (loose interpretation of a Russian fairytale)? And why I liked Japanese VNs that had unconventional setting (European-style setting in https://vndb.org/v22 is one of the important reasons why it's among my top 3 favorite VNs) or those that resemble Western fiction quite a bit (https://vndb.org/v183 - action-packed, dark cyberpunk, or https://vndb.org/v1390 - an Equilibrium fanfic)?
I don't like generic moeges all that much, you know? I'm always looking for something original and interesting. Are the VNs I listed here, both Western ones and Japanese ones, not diverse? Are they ALL just some generic moege thrash?

But yeah, I guess I'm just a big fat otaku liar, and I actually only want stereotypical moe waifus in generic VNs.

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@Pabloc oh look. You finally bringing something substantial. Doesn't excuse you for all the broad over generalizations to prove the point you weren't making now. 

 

I didnt believe you wanted to see unique original VN. Because you provided nothing up until this point. Your last point was revolved on all the downsides. 

 

You want to see a no original unique vn? I am generalizing vns for a different point. To  See the perspective of those on the other side see. 

 

Its not false. Its true. Even within the community admit it. There's no denying.

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So, from what I understand you want visual novels to have more western/less japanese themes and artstyles in order to make the medium visual novel more popular in the west. That by itself is great, as there is surely lots of potential there. 
However, you fail to understand one important part: There are (almost) no western visual novels because (almost) no one is making them. You stated many ideas you think could make visual novels more appealing for a western audience, but all you did was state them, but that will do nothing, even if (and that is a big if) these ideas where good enough to suddenly make the whole forum crave a western visual novel.
Somebody still has to make it, and you don`t sound like you are planning to be the one to do it. The big visual novel market is in Japan, and they simply have no reason to make games for a western audience. Not that they would really be able to, as they simply lack the needed cultural insight.
So all that remains are small western companies and dedicated fans. The former have no reason to make them because they would have to risk their future on a project of that scale, something no one is going to do when they don't even know how big the market is and what it really wants, and fans are unlikely to do it because most fans of visual novvels enjoy japanese novels the most, so they would much rather make something that resembles them. That said, if you want to produce a western visual novel go right on, it`s not like you got something to lose.

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More popular in the West? Here some popular themes to use that would work well (EXTREMELY WELL) here but not in Japan:

1. Murder mysteries - It's a really popular theme in a lot of TV shows. CSI, NCIS, Criminal Minds, Sherlock and many others have become really big as well as many other ones that deal with forensic and even courtroom settings

2. Sci-Fi - There's a reason why Dr. Who is still showing on TV for over 50 years. People in the West love their Sci-Fi and it's great when it involves huge themes like time travel, different alien species, and parallel/alternative dimensions. And yeah don't even get me started on Star Wars because I could talk about that for days.

3. Zombies - We love our Walking Dead, Z Nation, In the Flesh, and all these other zombie flicks both in TV and movies. It's our cheap source of horror as well as this silly ass jump scare movies. It's disappointing there isn't a lot of them in VN form...

4. Superheroes - See why Marvel keeps releasing all these superhero movies? They sell! And yeah can't wait on that Deadpool movie to come out!

5. Action - More blood, deaths, gunslinging, and explosions the better. Screw voice acting, just copy paste all the Michael Bay-like explosions and you got yourself a bad ass action visual novel!

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