reading untranslated VN

[ezyo22]

Do you need to learn kanji to read untranslated VN or the hiragana and the katakana is enough

[Kyoroto]

First of all grammar is definitely important in order to read VNs. I would recommend Tae Kim's Grammar Guide: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar

As for Kanji I don't think it's necessary to learn them, since you can use the machine assisted method (Jparser, etc.)

But of course if you have the time or the motivation I recommend learning Kanji; since it will definitely make reading vns a lot easier.

[Miulei]

Unless you're getting machine-translation help, you should learn the Kanji before trying to tackle an untranslated VN. But there are so many methods of translating the text from inside the visual novel now that it's really only necessary to have a handle on the basics of the language and a good grip on sentence structure.

[ezyo22]

Unless you're getting machine-translation help, you should learn the Kanji before trying to tackle an untranslated VN. But there are so many methods of translating the text from inside the visual novel now that it's really only necessary to have a handle on the basics of the language and a good grip on sentence structure.

 

so the basics grammar and good sentence structure are enough for most vn

[Miulei]

so the basics grammar and good sentence structure are enough for most vn

 

Yeah, as long as you've got some help from a text hook and machine translator like VNR or something similar.

[Nosebleed]

Do you need to learn kanji to read untranslated VN or the hiragana and the katakana is enough

Well, you'd be able to read it (assuming you're using TA or similar software for furigana), but you wouldn't be able to understand anything.

 

Build up on grammar at the very least so you know how Japanese sentences work, even if it's just the basics. This really is a must if you actually care about reading and understanding things.

You should also build up some basic vocab although you can do this as you read VNs (by looking words up with JParser or something) but it's always adviced to have some level of knowledge beforehand.

Knowing kanji in of itself is not a requirement but it's adviced that you try to memorize the most common ones so you don't have a super hard time. You'll have to deal with checking a dictionary all the time for definitions so i would advice you to at least try and learn some as you go (it's a continuous process after all).

 

Lastly, and I know i'm not alone in this:

 

Don't use machine translators (ATLAS, VNR, etc)

Machine translation doesn't help you understand anything any better, you should try to learn to understand japanese by thinking in Japanese, not by translating it into other languages.

Using machine translations only hinders your progress to learn the language more efficiently.

Not to mention 80% of the time the translation will never even be close to accurate.

 

Seriously, if you care to understand Japanese, don't go down the machine translation path.

[Cyrillej1]

Do you need to learn kanji to read untranslated VN or the hiragana and the katakana is enough

If you use Jparser/text-hooker, probably don't have to learn Kanji.. but I'd still suggest you learn some of the most basic/often used ones.  It's not needed, but it'd help speed up your reading/understanding in Japanese...  but I guess either way would take time. xD

 

..yeah, grammar would be a must.

[Pabloc]

Machine translators are utterly useless and don't help with anything, but like Kyoroto mentioned, there are other programs like JParser and MeCab, and those actually work. They basically provide you with an instant dictionary look-up and can also add furigana to each kanji (that is - reading of each character written in hiragana, katakana or even normal letters). With that, you can read without knowing kanji (as long as you know the grammar - and I mean know it well). The more kanji and vocab you know, the faster you read, but actually reading VNs is the best (and most enjoyable) way to learn them.

 

Edit: Oh, I was a little late, the above 2 posts explained everything quite well.

[Clephas]

Use translation aggregator with Jparser set to romaji or hiragana (depending on which you prefer) and know the grammar and basic vocabulary (the common vocabulary) and you'll be able to figure out low-level VNs.  If you have a working brain, you'll figure out the kanji and how they work along the way.  Jparser isn't perfect (you generally have to change about 1/3 of all pronunciations in your head as you go), but it is more than enough if you know what you are doing.  It is mostly a work-around for those who don't want to have to learn kanji or don't want to have to pull out their dictionary every time a unique or unusual kanji pops up on the screen.  ITH (Interactive Text Hooker) is the better text hooker for most games, simply because it is more flexible and doesn't eat up even a tenth as much of your computer's resources.

 

Edit: VNR, depending on what VN you are using it on, can use up to 2GB of your computer's RAM at any given time (this is the max I've found it using, precisely 1.87564GB, on Baldr Sky Zero 2 in comparison to the 200MB it used on some of the VNs I've played).  ITH uses hardly any RAM in comparison, which is why I absolutely do not recommend using VNR if you can possibly avoid it. 

[ezyo22]

i think i will go with no Machine translation because i am usually learning another language because english is not my mother language so i will focus on learning japanese .

 

and thank you everybody for replying

[Zalor]

Knowledge of Kanji is helpful, especially if you are a westerner such as myself. Remembering the Kanji (RTK) is a really helpful book/method to familiarize yourself with them. Keep in mind, RTK will not teach you the 2200 basic use Kanji, but it will familiarize you with them and their most common meanings (since Kanji can have multiple readings). Honestly, I consider RTK a prologue to learning Japanese. It is not neccessary, but doing it will give you a strong head start. I'm currently in the process of doing it, and while I haven't tackled untrnaslated VNs, I have played some Japanese exclusive retro games. While I can't read dialogue or anything, title menus and essential things like settings are doable for me simply from RTK. I definitely don't regret the time I am investing in Kanji before heading onto grammar, vocabulary, etc.  

[Nosebleed]

The advantage of starting with a grammatical approach is that you understand how sentences are built, how verbs work, the usage of particles, etc. (you don't need to know any kanji for this, just hiragana and katakana will suffice for a nice headstart)

And from that point on you can simultaneously learn new kanji/vocabulary while actually reading things and understanding them.

 

It's like killing two birds with one stone.

 

Of course each person has their preferred method but for me learning grammar really was a huge improvement in every aspect.

 

Also you can still learn grammar while tackling RTK (RTK's indeed pretty cool if you just want to memorize kanji), one thing doesn't stop the other.

[Zalor]

The advantage of starting with a grammatical approach is that you understand how sentences are built, how verbs work, the usage of particles, etc. (you don't need to know any kanji for this, just hiragana and katakana will suffice for a nice headstart)

And from that point on you can simultaneously learn new kanji/vocabulary while actually reading things and understanding them.

 

It's like killing two birds with one stone.

 

Of course each person has their preferred method but for me learning grammar really was a huge improvement in every aspect.

 

Also you can still learn grammar while tackling RTK (RTK's indeed pretty cool if you just want to memorize kanji), one thing doesn't stop the other.

 

Yeah grammar is fundamental, and honestly I get quite confused when looking at a Japanese sentence since I currently only know hiragana, katakana, and some kanji. I've pretty much been following Aaeru's guide (which I can't link to since the blog is currently down). Aaeru's guide recommends doing RTK before grammar, so that is what I did. Also since I don't have much free time, tackling RTK is more convenient for me than getting into the nitty gritty of grammar. (Personally I plan on learning grammar after RTK) But if you have the time to do both simultaneously, definitely do that. 

[Toranth]

The most important piece of all is continuous practice. Practice reading every day. Even just a little bit is fine - but make sure you do it every day.

[Clephas]

VNR is ok if you only use it as a text-hooker and furigana converter.   Of course, actual translation functions don't work, lol.

[Yatsufusa]

I used machine translators when I was playing Shiny Days at one point. The translations were so bad although some of them were pretty hilarious too lol.

[-Flashback-]

Reading untranslated novels is like punching someone in the dark. I have to admit I did try once. The kanjis are important, you will see a lot in the novels and they don't come with furiganas.

[LinovaA]

I have a few VN sitting on my computer that are not translated and I use them for study purposes.

Kanji is very important, let there be no doubt about that one, as there is quite a lot of kanji present in VNs.

[Bolverk]

VNR is ok if you only use it as a text-hooker and furigana converter.   Of course, actual translation functions don't work, lol.

If you are good enough in jp you can use jp-jp dic to VNR. It actually checks up words instantly compared to the 1-2 sec delay in jp-eng. Practical if you want to play full screen and practice with jp-jp dic's.

Honestly I am too lazy to do this, so I just use TA.

 

Nothing really to add with the rest of the comments, study grammar and basic vocab and read in jp with TA. You will be slow at the first, but after a month or two you will have improved massively.

[Zalor]

Nothing really to add with the rest of the comments, study grammar and basic vocab and read in jp with TA. You will be slow at the first, but after a month or two you will have improved massively.

 

Can somebody define "basic vocab". Is it N5 level of vocabulary, or does it include N4 as well? Approximately how many basic words do I need to memorize before attempting to read a VN? (This is of course after I learn basic grammar)

[Nosebleed]

Can somebody define "basic vocab". Is it N5 level of vocabulary, or does it include N4 as well? 

I'd say with N5 you can start practicing reading already.

N5 has very basic and super common words that you should probably know.

 

But still, the "basic" is a relative thing. Just know enough vocabulary to not be thrown off by very common words, or else you'll be checking up on a dictionary very very frequently which might get tedious for you.

 

Then again the way to acquire vocabulary is to just read sentences with the word so you'll still have to go through a tedious phase one way or another to start up

 

The difference would be that you can use a proper textbook to learn basic vocabulary and then jump into acquiring extra vocabulary from VNs. If you want to pick up ALL vocabulary from VNs it might make the whole thing not as efficient.

[Down]

Can somebody define "basic vocab". Is it N5 level of vocabulary, or does it include N4 as well? 

Depends on how much words you can bear having to look up when reading, really. Technically you could jump in with N4 only, but you'll be constantly looking up words. I'm probably somewhere between N3 and N2 and I look up words every few sentences in the LNs/VNs I read (and they're not that hard).

 

I remember trying to read VNs with TA when I was about N4 level and I was indeed looking up loads an loads of words, which I personally couldn't stand (hovering mouse over word so hard ) but I'm sure other people could do totally fine this way.

[Zalor]

Depends on how much words you can bear having to look up when reading, really. Technically you could jump in with N4 only, but you'll be constantly looking up words. I'm probably somewhere between N3 and N2 and I look up words every few sentences in the LNs/VNs I read (and they're not that hard).

 

I remember trying to read VNs with TA when I was about N4 level and I was indeed looking up loads an loads of words, which I personally couldn't stand (hovering mouse over word so hard ) but I'm sure other people could do totally fine this way.

 

While it would be nice to have a bit of a head start, I don't think I will mind looking up words much. The first VN I plan on tackling in Japanese is the untranslated version of Period. I didn't like that VN and considered it a waste of time in English, but it seems simple enough where it would be an ideal starting VN for learning Japanese. For my first few VNs I'm more interested in learning how to read Japanese through context than in experiencing the story. All the untranslated VNs I'm genuinely interested in are far beyond a beginners level (thanks Clephas for tantalizing me ).   

[Down]

While it would be nice to have a bit of a head start, I don't think I will mind looking up words much.

When it comes to vocab, another important factor is your ability to absorb it from anime (since I assume you do watch anime). For some people it's all they need to actually have a large pool of words to begin with. Personally I got a pretty bad yield at that, I watched truckloads of anime and still had a pretty poor vocab before I started reading...

If you're in that case, then jumping into reading soon is probably the way to go imo, I wish I had just picked up an LN sooner and started actually reading while "manually" crawling in my dictionary, it really triggered major improvements. (As I said TA didn't do the trick for me, I don't know why =p)

[Zalor]

When it comes to vocab, another important factor is your ability to absorb it from anime (since I assume you do watch anime). For some people it's all they need to actually have a large pool of words to begin with. Personally I got a pretty bad yield at that, I watched truckloads of anime and still had a pretty poor vocab before I started reading...

If you're in that case, then jumping into reading soon is probably the way to go imo, I wish I had just picked up an LN sooner and started actually reading while "manually" crawling in my dictionary, it really triggered major improvements. (As I said TA didn't do the trick for me, I don't know why =p)

 

I heard of those stories of people who learned a decent vocabulary from anime, and it makes me envious. I've learned no more than 20-30 words from all the anime I watched. I heard watching without subtitles increases the amount of words you will learn. So maybe if I refused to use subtitles I would be better off. 

Doesn't TA make it easier to look up words? Well I guess since looking up words in a physical dictionary requires more effort, the words may stick in your head better.