First time reading Fate Stay

[Kosakyun]

 

Also this is the route where Shirou has the most chance of becoming the Heroic Spirit Emiya(aka Archer) since it is the route where he can confirm to uphold his ideals if he chooses to do so, even Nasu referred to that in a fan Q&A. Although it is still possible for that to happen in Fate and UBW, it's just that in terms of events HF gives that extra push towards the existance of Archer, this also alludes to the way that Nasu approaches his works, through the multiverse theory, meaning that every rote and event is possible and can be canonically true if Nasu wishes it to be so. Type-moon's philosophy and it's inherent questions give so much life to their works, it's awesome.

 

Heroic Spirit Emiya was created out of fulfilling his ideals. And that's precisely the reason for his downfall. He tried to help everybody by utilizing all the skills he possesses. In the end, the people he helped turned his back against him and some even betrayed him, if I remember correctly. That's why he wished to be a Guardian Spirit, right? To eliminate Emiya Shirou before he becomes a hero. Following that Shirou did indeed become Heroic Spirit Emiya, I wonder what route he took in the previous timeline? Since Shirou is the 'past', Heroic Spirit Emiya must also have a definite 'past', or a vantage point (Shirou) where he came from. Might we be able to assume that he did kill Sakura in the previous event, or the events in Heroic Spirit Emiya's life?

 

 

What the hell would happen if Illya won the Holy Grail War?  Would she just sit around doing nothing, since she's the vessel?  Or would someone else have to be the vessel?  I have no idea...

 

I don't think you can actually have Illya win the war. Thinking about it, has any Einzbern won the war? I can't really remember. In that case though, Illya being the vessel, wouldn't the Grail still be inevitably brought into the world? Since the Grail is able to fill itself with the souls required for summoning itself, Illya would still succumb as the vessel of the Grail. I guess that means that the Grail is once again up for grabs? I don't know. What am I wondering however is Illya not transforming into the Grail in HF. Illya might have the ability to close the portal or the gates summoning the Grail, but I was wondering why she didn't lose consciousness to the Grail? Might it be because Sakura had finally corrupted the Grail so much? Might it be that the link between the Great Grail and Illya has been cut? Might it all be Sakura's fault? I don't know.

[madvanced]

 

Heroic Spirit Emiya was created out of fulfilling his ideals. And that's precisely the reason for his downfall. He tried to help everybody by utilizing all the skills he possesses. In the end, the people he helped turned his back against him and some even betrayed him, if I remember correctly. That's why he wished to be a Guardian Spirit, right? To eliminate Emiya Shirou before he becomes a hero. Following that Shirou did indeed become Heroic Spirit Emiya, I wonder what route he took in the previous timeline? Since Shirou is the 'past', Heroic Spirit Emiya must also have a definite 'past', or a vantage point (Shirou) where he came from. Might we be able to assume that he did kill Sakura in the previous event, or the events in Heroic Spirit Emiya's life?

 

 

 

I don't think you can actually have Illya win the war. Thinking about it, has any Einzbern won the war? I can't really remember. In that case though, Illya being the vessel, wouldn't the Grail still be inevitably brought into the world? Since the Grail is able to fill itself with the souls required for summoning itself, Illya would still succumb as the vessel of the Grail. I guess that means that the Grail is once again up for grabs? I don't know. What am I wondering however is Illya not transforming into the Grail in HF. Illya might have the ability to close the portal or the gates summoning the Grail, but I was wondering why she didn't lose consciousness to the Grail? Might it be because Sakura had finally corrupted the Grail so much? Might it be that the link between the Great Grail and Illya has been cut? Might it all be Sakura's fault? I don't know.

 

He became a Heroic Spirit when he made a contract with the world to gain the power necessary to become an "Ally of Justice". however right after his death brought upon by betrayal and the human side he witness as an Heroic spirit made him become cynical and loathe his past self, so it was by pure chance that he actually was able to encounter his past self. Now as to what was Emiya's

(I'm going to refer to Archer as Emiya and Shirou as Shirou for better differentiation) past, it's not set in stone, basically all routes can lead Shirou to become Emiya. I do think that UBW has the least chance ironically. My reasoning for this is that Emiya didn't seem to expect being summoned to the same timeline has is past self, however in UBW Shirou always learns about Emiya so we can assume that Rin was able to prevent the birth of Emiya in that specific timeline. But we can't assume anything as to what Emiya did because he comes from different pasts at the same time in my opinion, even if that may seem crazy that's how Nasu kind of made me think when he said that every route had the chance of creating Emiya.

 

Now onto what you replied to Zeno, Illya could indeed have won the war if it was done in her route. You can maybe apply what happened in Fate and UBW where there wasn't a physical vessel but rather an opening to the Great Holy Grail and make Shirou extend Illya's life trough one of the true magics(2nd or 5th maybe?), since it is said by Zouken, iirc, that Illya only had a short amount of time to live. Also in HF Illya didn't become the Holy Grail in the traditional sense, what I mean to say is that Sakura was the vessel of the Holy Grail and absorbed the souls of the servants for that effect however, illya when she dressed herself with the dress "Heaven's Feel" she was able to cut the ties between the Holy Grail(Sakura) and the Great Holy Grail, hence why she still was able to have some time of consciousness before perishing and use the incomplete 2nd Magic on Shirou, because she never took in the souls herself. This is also somewhat proved by the fact that Sakura still functioned as the Holy Grail afterwards the war in her true end, the Great Holy Grail was completely used and destroyed after Illya made use of it, in my own speculation this is also why Sakura was able to exist as the Holy Grail because there shouldn't be allowed to exist 2 Holy Grails in the same world even with the 3rd Magic. As I said this last bit was my speculation and may be 100% wrong, but what I wrote before the "in my own speculation" stands true I guess.

[Dark Ariel7]

I am soooo curious about the conversation happening on the side. But I learnt my lesson with spoilers.

[Zenophilious]

I am soooo curious about the conversation happening on the side. But I learnt my lesson with spoilers.

Yeaaaaaah...don't do it.  Unless you want all the endings to Heaven's Feel spoiled for you, resist the urge.

[Kosakyun]

He became a Heroic Spirit when he made a contract with the world to gain the power necessary to become an "Ally of Justice". however right after his death brought upon by betrayal and the human side he witness as an Heroic spirit made him become cynical and loathe his past self, so it was by pure chance that he actually was able to encounter his past self. Now as to what was Emiya's

(I'm going to refer to Archer as Emiya and Shirou as Shirou for better differentiation) past, it's not set in stone, basically all routes can lead Shirou to become Emiya. I do think that UBW has the least chance ironically. My reasoning for this is that Emiya didn't seem to expect being summoned to the same timeline has is past self, however in UBW Shirou always learns about Emiya so we can assume that Rin was able to prevent the birth of Emiya in that specific timeline. But we can't assume anything as to what Emiya did because he comes from different pasts at the same time in my opinion, even if that may seem crazy that's how Nasu kind of made me think when he said that every route had the chance of creating Emiya.

 

Now onto what you replied to Zeno, Illya could indeed have won the war if it was done in her route. You can maybe apply what happened in Fate and UBW where there wasn't a physical vessel but rather an opening to the Great Holy Grail and make Shirou extend Illya's life trough one of the true magics(2nd or 5th maybe?), since it is said by Zouken, iirc, that Illya only had a short amount of time to live. Also in HF Illya didn't become the Holy Grail in the traditional sense, what I mean to say is that Sakura was the vessel of the Holy Grail and absorbed the souls of the servants for that effect however, illya when she dressed herself with the dress "Heaven's Feel" she was able to cut the ties between the Holy Grail(Sakura) and the Great Holy Grail, hence why she still was able to have some time of consciousness before perishing and use the incomplete 2nd Magic on Shirou, because she never took in the souls herself. This is also somewhat proved by the fact that Sakura still functioned as the Holy Grail afterwards the war in her true end, the Great Holy Grail was completely used and destroyed after Illya made use of it, in my own speculation this is also why Sakura was able to exist as the Holy Grail because there shouldn't be allowed to exist 2 Holy Grails in the same world even with the 3rd Magic. As I said this last bit was my speculation and may be 100% wrong, but what I wrote before the "in my own speculation" stands true I guess.

 

Now about Emiya being a heroic spirit... Didn't he always have the hope that he'd be meeting his past self in one of his summonings? I may or may not be correct, since it has been approximately 2 years. Emiya had the hope of meeting his past self. I think that was his main reason for continuing to exist, as far as I can remember. I think the main motivation he had was the chance to eliminate his existence once and for all from the world by killing off the person which he stems from ----- Shirou. In this case, he had always desired to see Shirou, but has been unsuccessful. Until the faithful day that Rin Tohsaka had summoned him...

 

About the possible past of Emiya... Yes. It was not set in stone. That's why it has led to a number of speculations regarding the topic. It may or may not be related to the actual Holy Grail War. It might've stemmed from a Shirou that holds the original desires of all possible Shirous, which is to save people. Upon gaining that power, Emiya did good. But yeah, he was faced with the cruel truth of betrayal by the people he once saved, which caused the change in his personality. A change that he welcomed. A change that he knew would redefine who he once was ---- a hero of justice. Ironically, he changed at his moment of death. Several moments was given to him to decide on what he wants to do; die a pitiful death or continue to live on with his hope as a Guardian Spirit of the World. I don't really think UBW has the least chance of Shirou turning into a Hero of Justice again, or Emiya for short. He did swear that he will not become what Emiya has become, but he never said anything about turning back on his ideals. Emiya cursed the ideals that Shirou and he once had, due to being betrayed by the very same people he saved. It was too much of a shock for him, I guess. In Shirou's case, he was indeed taken aback by Emiya's life, but it never stopped him from pursuing his ideals. He may or may not end up like Emiya, but he will continue to act upon his beliefs. At least, that's what I remember.

 

And regarding Illya as a grail, I completely forgot that she managed to live after the incident involving Kirei and Gilgamesh. Goddamn. I forgot that she didn't die. But wasn't there a physical vessel for the Grail in UBW? Shinji was used as the vessel, as far as I'm concerned. But of course, it needed the heart of an Einzbern, Illya's heart. And if you would remember, Illya was completely unconscious in Fate, and dead in UBW. It would then be correct to say that Illya would not win. Rather, Shirou would win the war for her. Technically, Illya would win. But it would be Shirou who did the winning for her. And also, what part told of Sakura continuing to live as the Grail after the True End? She was never the Grail in the first place, or at least the true Grail. She was an incomplete Grail. I don't think the nonexistent possibility of two Grails being present in one timeline is applicable here, since they are two different types of Grails. Illya's the true Grail, while Sakura's the incomplete Grail. In this sense, Illya was meant to be the catalyst, but due to something happening in Heaven's Feel, the transfer of the souls for the Grail was instead done unto Sakura Matou, thereby receiving the souls that were supposed to be received by Illya. This then allows her to summon the Holy Grail, or at least open the Great Holy Grail. I wonder how the Grail which contained Avenger manifested in Heaven's Feel though. Sakura did not act as the physical vessel. Rather, she acted as the storage of souls. How did that Grail come to be then?

 

Again, these are all speculations based on my memory of the game. I've yet to play it again.

[madvanced]

Now about Emiya being a heroic spirit... Didn't he always have the hope that he'd be meeting his past self in one of his summonings? I may or may not be correct, since it has been approximately 2 years. Emiya had the hope of meeting his past self. I think that was his main reason for continuing to exist, as far as I can remember. I think the main motivation he had was the chance to eliminate his existence once and for all from the world by killing off the person which he stems from ----- Shirou. In this case, he had always desired to see Shirou, but has been unsuccessful. Until the faithful day that Rin Tohsaka had summoned him...

 

About the possible past of Emiya... Yes. It was not set in stone. That's why it has led to a number of speculations regarding the topic. It may or may not be related to the actual Holy Grail War. It might've stemmed from a Shirou that holds the original desires of all possible Shirous, which is to save people. Upon gaining that power, Emiya did good. But yeah, he was faced with the cruel truth of betrayal by the people he once saved, which caused the change in his personality. A change that he welcomed. A change that he knew would redefine who he once was ---- a hero of justice. Ironically, he changed at his moment of death. Several moments was given to him to decide on what he wants to do; die a pitiful death or continue to live on with his hope as a Guardian Spirit of the World. I don't really think UBW has the least chance of Shirou turning into a Hero of Justice again, or Emiya for short. He did swear that he will not become what Emiya has become, but he never said anything about turning back on his ideals. Emiya cursed the ideals that Shirou and he once had, due to being betrayed by the very same people he saved. It was too much of a shock for him, I guess. In Shirou's case, he was indeed taken aback by Emiya's life, but it never stopped him from pursuing his ideals. He may or may not end up like Emiya, but he will continue to act upon his beliefs. At least, that's what I remember.

 

And regarding Illya as a grail, I completely forgot that she managed to live after the incident involving Kirei and Gilgamesh. Goddamn. I forgot that she didn't die. But wasn't there a physical vessel for the Grail in UBW? Shinji was used as the vessel, as far as I'm concerned. But of course, it needed the heart of an Einzbern, Illya's heart. And if you would remember, Illya was completely unconscious in Fate, and dead in UBW. It would then be correct to say that Illya would not win. Rather, Shirou would win the war for her. Technically, Illya would win. But it would be Shirou who did the winning for her. And also, what part told of Sakura continuing to live as the Grail after the True End? She was never the Grail in the first place, or at least the true Grail. She was an incomplete Grail. I don't think the nonexistent possibility of two Grails being present in one timeline is applicable here, since they are two different types of Grails. Illya's the true Grail, while Sakura's the incomplete Grail. In this sense, Illya was meant to be the catalyst, but due to something happening in Heaven's Feel, the transfer of the souls for the Grail was instead done unto Sakura Matou, thereby receiving the souls that were supposed to be received by Illya. This then allows her to summon the Holy Grail, or at least open the Great Holy Grail. I wonder how the Grail which contained Avenger manifested in Heaven's Feel though. Sakura did not act as the physical vessel. Rather, she acted as the storage of souls. How did that Grail come to be then?

 

Again, these are all speculations based on my memory of the game. I've yet to play it again.

The only thing I really have to comment on your reply is regarding the Holy Grail in Fate/UBW/HF. If you remember the Great Holy Grail was only known in HF, in Fate and UBW the only Grail that is talked about is the "normal" Holy Grail which is the one corrupted by avenger and Illya doesn't really become the vessel for it, she only becomes the key to open them, this can be verified when she doesn't die in Fate and the holy Grail is still opened, it she was the real vessel she would have perished as a human being. So we can assume that what happens to Sakura in HF, is that she does become the Holy Grail, but not the Great Holy Grail, however since one's power stems from the other Illya was only able to use a incomplete 2nd Magic on Shirou rather than the complete one since she didn't have the Grail's complete power("normal"+Great), also it was mentioned that Sakura still functioned somewhat as the Holy Grail when she was forced to spend her Mana through magical power transfer with Shirou since he also needed that Mana to continue living on his artificial body, remember that only his soul remained from the incomplete 2nd Magic made by Illya, so it was a win-win situation for them both, it was also mentioned that Sakura was forced to get rid of her endless supply of Mana because she would cease to be human otherwise, reinforcing the fact that she still is indeed the "normal" Holy Grail. Now going a little backwards on your points Sakura absorbed the souls herself rather than Illya because Illya didn't have her condition as the vessel fulfilled, iirc Zouken made some kind of ritual to make Sakura be the vessel that the Holy Grail would choose.

 

There are also some bits here and there on my reply that are somewhat speculation too since I also played this game 2/3 years ago, although I do plan to reread the full Realta Nua patched with the h-scenes and all the new content.

[FinalChaos]

You know reading those spoilers is just making me confused, so I shall stop now and just continue with whatever I understood from the vn.

[Zenophilious]

There are also some bits here and there on my reply that are somewhat speculation too since I also played this game 2/3 years ago, although I do plan to reread the full Realta Nua patched with the h-scenes and all the new content.

It was the second VN I ever played, and I joined over a year ago  :/  I'm really fuzzy on most of the details, hence my abnormally bad memory.  I'm gonna go back and get all of the route ends, as well as the hilarious Shirou bad ends, sometime, and hopefully then the Nasuverse will be engraved into my mind.

 

By the way, madvanced, where have you been recently?  I haven't seen much of you for a while  :3

[madvanced]

It was the second VN I ever played, and I joined over a year ago  :/  I'm really fuzzy on most of the details, hence my abnormally bad memory.  I'm gonna go back and get all of the route ends, as well as the hilarious Shirou bad ends, sometime, and hopefully then the Nasuverse will be engraved into my mind.

 

By the way, madvanced, where have you been recently?  I haven't seen much of you for a while  :3

[Zenophilious]

Not been much online, last week I had some problems regarding time, I have however started to post at least about 2-3 times per day again. I'm also a bit burned up regarding VNs, I have some of them on my backlog, including Cross Channel which I'm kind of playing, but at the same time it's stalled. I'm just on those "don't feel like playing VNs" periods that I have sometimes. For me F/SN was my absolute first VN so that plus the time factor(heck 2/3 years for me is a lot in terms of memory), even makes me wonder how I still remember anything about it.

Quick question.  When you say "2/3 years", do you mean 2-3 years ago, or two-thirds of a year ago?

 

I get that.  I've been getting a little burned-out on the 1st playthrough of Comyu.  Taking a break once in a while seem to be necessary if you want to make a decent amount of progress  :3

 

Okay, derailment has been stopped.  I was wonder, by the way, what was everyone's favorite ends to F/sn's routes?  I don't mean the bad ends, only the actual conclusions to the routes themselves.  I've only completed Fate's automatic True end and UBW and HF's good ends, so I'm a little curious.

[Mr Poltroon]

Okay, derailment has been stopped.  I was wonder, by the way, what was everyone's favorite ends to F/sn's routes?  I don't mean the bad ends, only the actual conclusions to the routes themselves.  I've only completed Fate's automatic True end and UBW and HF's good ends, so I'm a little curious.

Unlimited Blade Works because Tohsaka.

[madvanced]

Quick question.  When you say "2/3 years", do you mean 2-3 years ago, or two-thirds of a year ago?

 

I get that.  I've been getting a little burned-out on the 1st playthrough of Comyu.  Taking a break once in a while seem to be necessary if you want to make a decent amount of progress  :3

 

Okay, derailment has been stopped.  I was wonder, by the way, what was everyone's favorite ends to F/sn's routes?  I don't mean the bad ends, only the actual conclusions to the routes themselves.  I've only completed Fate's automatic True end and UBW and HF's good ends, so I'm a little curious.

2-3 years ago

 

Unlimited Blade Works because Tohsaka.

^pretty much this, Rin best girl ever.

[Zenophilious]

Unlimited Blade Works because Tohsaka.

I meant UBW's good and true ends and HF's normal and true ends, not the routes themselves.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

2-3 years ago

Wow, that's pretty impressive that you remember anything about it.

[Kenshin_sama]

UBW's true end. No matter which one I choose, I always feel like I'm coming to a bad end with HF.

[Kendjin]

UBW, because best end.

[madvanced]

Both UBW ends are good but that true end.

When Emiya finally comes to terms with his past self and smiles like Shirou to Tohsaka and when she basically wants Shirou to live with her as her magic assistance in the Magic Association, those were moments of pure win to me.

[Kosakyun]

The only thing I really have to comment on your reply is regarding the Holy Grail in Fate/UBW/HF. If you remember the Great Holy Grail was only known in HF, in Fate and UBW the only Grail that is talked about is the "normal" Holy Grail which is the one corrupted by avenger and Illya doesn't really become the vessel for it, she only becomes the key to open them, this can be verified when she doesn't die in Fate and the holy Grail is still opened, it she was the real vessel she would have perished as a human being. So we can assume that what happens to Sakura in HF, is that she does become the Holy Grail, but not the Great Holy Grail, however since one's power stems from the other Illya was only able to use a incomplete 2nd Magic on Shirou rather than the complete one since she didn't have the Grail's complete power("normal"+Great), also it was mentioned that Sakura still functioned somewhat as the Holy Grail when she was forced to spend her Mana through magical power transfer with Shirou since he also needed that Mana to continue living on his artificial body, remember that only his soul remained from the incomplete 2nd Magic made by Illya, so it was a win-win situation for them both, it was also mentioned that Sakura was forced to get rid of her endless supply of Mana because she would cease to be human otherwise, reinforcing the fact that she still is indeed the "normal" Holy Grail. Now going a little backwards on your points Sakura absorbed the souls herself rather than Illya because Illya didn't have her condition as the vessel fulfilled, iirc Zouken made some kind of ritual to make Sakura be the vessel that the Holy Grail would choose.

 

There are also some bits here and there on my reply that are somewhat speculation too since I also played this game 2/3 years ago, although I do plan to reread the full Realta Nua patched with the h-scenes and all the new content.

 

Guess I'll just read it again. :/

 

 

Okay, derailment has been stopped.  I was wonder, by the way, what was everyone's favorite ends to F/sn's routes?  I don't mean the bad ends, only the actual conclusions to the routes themselves.  I've only completed Fate's automatic True end and UBW and HF's good ends, so I'm a little curious.

 

Heaven's Feel True End and UBW Good End.

[reyaes]

I've only just finished f/sn the other day. I guess I ended up doing the Fate route. First VN completed! Bam!

 

From what I've read here, UBW sound really cool. HF sounds way too dark for my tastes. I don't plan on going back right away. I'll probably check out the other routes another time.

 

Funniest part of the novel is when you deny Saber lunch and she gets so pissed off she kills you. Couldn't help but laugh my ass off.

How about that? What's everyone's funniest parts?

[Zenophilious]

I've only just finished f/sn the other day. I guess I ended up doing the Fate route. First VN completed! Bam!

 

From what I've read here, UBW sound really cool. HF sounds way too dark for my tastes. I don't plan on going back right away. I'll probably check out the other routes another time.

 

Funniest part of the novel is when you deny Saber lunch and she gets so pissed off she kills you. Couldn't help but laugh my ass off.

How about that? What's everyone's funniest parts?

[Kosakyun]

I've only just finished f/sn the other day. I guess I ended up doing the Fate route. First VN completed! Bam!

 

From what I've read here, UBW sound really cool. HF sounds way too dark for my tastes. I don't plan on going back right away. I'll probably check out the other routes another time.

 

Funniest part of the novel is when you deny Saber lunch and she gets so pissed off she kills you. Couldn't help but laugh my ass off.

How about that? What's everyone's funniest parts?

[Angmir]

UBW is indeed the best route overall, but i simply love Kotomine Kirei story arc and everything he does in Heavens Feel - he is like real main hero of this route !

[Kosakyun]

UBW is indeed the best route overall, but i simply love Kotomine Kirei story arc and everything he does in Heavens Feel - he is like real main hero of this route !

 

He still acts for his beliefs. That's the reason why he helped, anyway.

He simply wanted to see 'it' being born into the world.

[Soradragoon]

Okay, derailment has been stopped.  I was wonder, by the way, what was everyone's favorite ends to F/sn's routes?  I don't mean the bad ends, only the actual conclusions to the routes themselves.  I've only completed Fate's automatic True end and UBW and HF's good ends, so I'm a little curious.

 

I agree that possibly UBW is the best route. But I have special affection for HF maybe because I was not expecting something so different from UBW. I also would throw away my ideals for Sakura, in any case Fate is an excellent VN, which is without doubt in my top 5.

[madvanced]

UBW is indeed the best route overall, but i simply love Kotomine Kirei story arc and everything he does in Heavens Feel - he is like real main hero of this route !

When Kie Nai Omoi(Ever-Present Feeling) plays in Kotomanly's story regarding him and his wife, the feels.

[Angmir]

Yes this and ofcourse last battle with Shirou with slow church theme playing - MADNESS.

 

 

BTW he was never bad (if ever he was misslead by Gilgamesh in Zero) he was a aberation born to be bad,  but still desperetly tried to be good anyway. It is great and moving story unlike anything I have ever seen