Clephas Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Hapymaher has no tsundere heroines... Konata yori Kanata Made Otome ga Tsumugu Koi no Canvas Just off the top of my head. Incidentally, I'm not counting heroines that honestly hated the protagonist at the beginning but got over it without that stupid 'tsundere interval' that happens so often with antagonistic heroines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rin91 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Damn, three in one? I smell -dere discrimination! This is blasphemy! Does it at least have a yandere to balance it off?! It does! Sort of. There's defenitely a lot of yan- in one of those derederes at least. And there's a coodere, too. Cythnar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avil Posted July 14, 2014 Author Share Posted July 14, 2014 A misunderstanding or a small fight are not enough to make me hate them, I just dislike the everlasting tsundere antics so a "classic tsundere" that grows up might be good. What really wears me about tsundere is how they manage to make every interesting story stagnant with their stupid antics so reading dark stories where you say they turn non-effective and the MC are usually better might be a good idea. Thank you all for your recomendations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Meogii Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Question, why are you not for Tsunderes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zakobot Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 How about tsundere only VN where all characters are super tsun tsun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimanor Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 How about tsundere only VN where all characters are super tsun tsun... If you could find one that would be... interesting. I'd definitely try it out. But hey, it's not like I'll care if you find me one! ばか～！ zakobot 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMN Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 How about tsundere only VN where all characters are super tsun tsun... Hmm I would probably kill myself halfway through the VN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurisu-Chan Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 How about tsundere only VN where all characters are super tsun tsun... There's no tsundere nor tsun tsun!!! B-b-b-b-b-baka!! zakobot 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimanor Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 There's no tsundere nor tsun tsun!!! B-b-b-b-b-baka!! Kurisu-channnnn~ you can the same idea as meeeee~ but... it's not like I care! あほ！ばか！ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funnerific Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 If you could find one that would be... interesting. I'd definitely try it out. But hey, it's not like I'll care if you find me one! ばか～！ Not-too-long-ago translated IkiKoi has become a famous example of tsunderefest, with all 4 heroines being each a different type of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avil Posted August 2, 2014 Author Share Posted August 2, 2014 Question, why are you not for Tsunderes? To me tsundere are childish characters and usually drop the quality of any vn as soon as they appear, there are memorable exceptions but as long as the mc is not calm and composed or a trollmaster... Thinking about it I might not hate tsunderes as much as I hate the standard mangina MC, if the MC is not the tsundere punching bag/slave and actually has some backbone even tsunderes might be slightly bearable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Poltroon Posted August 2, 2014 Share Posted August 2, 2014 To me tsundere are childish characters and usually drop the quality of any vn as soon as they appear, there are memorable exceptions but as long as the mc is not calm and composed or a trollmaster... Thinking about it I might not hate tsunderes as much as I hate the standard mangina MC, if the MC is not the tsundere punching bag/slave and actually has some backbone even tsunderes might be slightly bearable. Tsundere's these days vary a lot. As you say, I too find the Tsundere's who are more inclined to use violence and treat the MC like utter garbage for no good reason quite annoying. Especially if the protagonist just takes it all without complaint. But I also see that some of my favourite characters are tsundere's. It really depends on a whole lot of factors. Generally speaking, the tsunderes who warm up to the protagonist permanently are the ones I prefer. The ones who seem to be ill-spirited all the time except in some very private moments are the ones I'd like to see at the bottom of the ocean. BookwormOtaku and Avil 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christfall Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 To me tsundere are childish characters and usually drop the quality of any vn as soon as they appear, there are memorable exceptions but as long as the mc is not calm and composed or a trollmaster... Thinking about it I might not hate tsunderes as much as I hate the standard mangina MC, if the MC is not the tsundere punching bag/slave and actually has some backbone even tsunderes might be slightly bearable. It seems like you are referring to a certain pink-haired tsundere loli to me, which is the reason where a lot of people do not like Tsunderes as a whole. Speaking of that, I rarely find any tsundere (almost never) in VNs that actually treat the MC like a punching bag (in other words, a violent, abusive and annoying one) and also never finds one that actually calls the MC "slaves" or "dog" while being abusive at the same time. They all have good reasons for being Tsundere so it would be wise not to give them a death penalty them as a whole the moment they appear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avil Posted August 7, 2014 Author Share Posted August 7, 2014 It seems like you are referring to a certain pink-haired tsundere loli to me, which is the reason where a lot of people do not like Tsunderes as a whole. Speaking of that, I rarely find any tsundere (almost never) in VNs that actually treat the MC like a punching bag (in other words, a violent, abusive and annoying one) and also never finds one that actually calls the MC "slaves" or "dog" while being abusive at the same time. They all have good reasons for being Tsundere so it would be wise not to give them a death penalty them as a whole the moment they appear. I dropped hoshizora no memoria almost a the beggining (3h playtime) and I'm sure i won't play ikikoi and dropped tsukumo no kanade and haruzake (skyfish) as fast as I saw those tsundere appear. To me tsundere are predictable and boring, especially when most times those "reasons" (cold parents, betrayal..etc) end up being cheap excuses lazy writers add to create drama and avoid working on interesing characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christfall Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 I dropped hoshizora no memoria almost a the beggining (3h playtime) and I'm sure i won't play ikikoi and dropped tsukumo no kanade and haruzake (skyfish) as fast as I saw those tsundere appear. To me tsundere are predictable and boring, especially when most times those "reasons" (cold parents, betrayal..etc) end up being cheap excuses lazy writers add to create drama and avoid working on interesing characters. To be honest, tsundere or not, has nothing to do with the quality of a VN, it is the story writing that are the ones that matter. You are looking for something that "stand out", "interesting" or otherwise appeals to you, there's nothing wrong with it, just like how people like or dislike a certain character stereotype and have different standards. I am just hoping you wouldn't judge a title just because it has tsunderes and then say "Screw it, this VN sux because [Tsundere] is so annoying", you are bound to miss out a LOT of great VNs to read for a long time to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydro Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 I don't think Crescendo had one. For practical purposes I'll agree with Sharin no Kuni too. There technically is one, but she's harmless and the MC/other characters point out how irrational she's being. And 999/VLR don't even have time for relationships, much less tsunderes and their nonsense. I dropped hoshizora no memoria almost a the beggining (3h playtime) and I'm sure i won't play ikikoi and dropped tsukumo no kanade and haruzake (skyfish) as fast as I saw those tsundere appear. To me tsundere are predictable and boring, especially when most times those "reasons" (cold parents, betrayal..etc) end up being cheap excuses lazy writers add to create drama and avoid working on interesing characters. I was reading Hoshizora no Memoria as recently as yesterday before stopping. I haven't conclusively dropped it, but I don't really feel like going back. The MC lets at least 3 girls walk all over him (including but not limited to tsunderes), and the only girl he trolls is his super straightfoward sister. Not to mention the game locks you out from the sisters route until you complete Aoi's, who is just awful. (Not necessarily a tsundere, but an argument could be made). Tsundere's these days vary a lot. As you say, I too find the Tsundere's who are more inclined to use violence and treat the MC like utter garbage for no good reason quite annoying. Especially if the protagonist just takes it all without complaint. But I also see that some of my favourite characters are tsundere's. It really depends on a whole lot of factors. Generally speaking, the tsunderes who warm up to the protagonist permanently are the ones I prefer. The ones who seem to be ill-spirited all the time except in some very private moments are the ones I'd like to see at the bottom of the ocean. There are some tsunderes I'm indifferent to, and maybe a few I like. But in my case I just admire their overall character, while tolerating any minor tsundere traits they may have. For me tsundere characteristics don't improve a character. It's easy to say "Akiha Tohno is a good tsundere", but that's not really accurate. She's a good character who just happens to have tsundere characteristics. She would be no worse without them (imo). Your example of a good tsundere is certainly more pleasant than the bad ones, however I have no reason to prefer them over characters that are pleasant from the start. (I get the whole gap moe thing, it's just not for me). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avil Posted August 7, 2014 Author Share Posted August 7, 2014 I only avoid VN with the "modern tsundere" and "Hetare MC" tag the rest of them deserve a chance, but I do think that a lot of tsundere characters are simply the lazy way of adding lenght trough misunderstandings with no effort. That's why I started this thread, to find those hidden jewels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Poltroon Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Your example of a good tsundere is certainly more pleasant than the bad ones, however I have no reason to prefer them over characters that are pleasant from the start. (I get the whole gap moe thing, it's just not for me). I'm strictly speaking about Tsunderes here. If a character is pleasant from the start then I'd wager she's not a tsundere in the first place. Anyways, what I mean is, there are lots of types of tsunderes, some become so after a certain event, others are so right from the start. Out of the types of tsundere, I prefer the ones who eventually warm up to us permanently, than the ones who kick our arse all the time because of "embarrassment" and just plain aggressiveness. How the heck would you expect to keep a relationship like that? Maybe masochists would enjoy it, but not I, I'm afraid. Then there's the fact that Tsunderes are terribly generic, you've seen one, you've seen them all. But this is also an advantage, out of the tens of them out there, some actually have character beneath these traits. Lucia frrom Rewrite is an example of a character who seems awfully generic at first, and ends up being terribly complex beneath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V_Kitsune_V Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Would Grisaia count, Michiru's a fake, and whats her face is just angry and quiet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydro Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 I'm strictly speaking about Tsunderes here. If a character is pleasant from the start then I'd wager she's not a tsundere in the first place. Anyways, what I mean is, there are lots of types of tsunderes, some become so after a certain event, others are so right from the start. Out of the types of tsundere, I prefer the ones who eventually warm up to us permanently, than the ones who kick our arse all the time because of "embarrassment" and just plain aggressiveness. How the heck would you expect to keep a relationship like that? Maybe masochists would enjoy it, but not I, I'm afraid. Then there's the fact that Tsunderes are terribly generic, you've seen one, you've seen them all. But this is also an advantage, out of the tens of them out there, some actually have character beneath these traits. Lucia frrom Rewrite is an example of a character who seems awfully generic at first, and ends up being terribly complex beneath. I do as well, though it's more a case of them being the lesser of two evils for me. All I'm saying is that all things being equal, I'll always prefer non-tsunderes to tsunderes. If you're the same then it will seem like common sense to you, not even worth mentioning. However tsunderes are extremely popular, so this sentiment is certainly not shared by all. Many people like a character specifically for their tsundere traits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Poltroon Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Oh, yes, I see now. I believe that a tsundere done right, can be better than non-tsunderes in quite a few cases, actually. After all, tsunderes aren't the only generic archetype out there, although there's certainly lots of them. The tsundere in Ever17 was my favourite heroine for example, and Lucia from Rewrite was also an awesome example. I'm sure there's more, but that'll do for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avil Posted August 8, 2014 Author Share Posted August 8, 2014 I think the problem lies with the screentime a tsundere character needs for it's character development and the tsun--dere balance, in most cases it goes from absolute hate to the sweetest love only to return to a violent attitude latter on. Summarizing if you are not a tsundere-fan, the time it takes to see the dere side combined with a mangina MC and the lack of consequences from her acts make tsundere characters easily hated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christfall Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Out of the types of tsundere, I prefer the ones who eventually warm up to us permanently, than the ones who kick our arse all the time because of "embarrassment" and just plain aggressiveness. How the heck would you expect to keep a relationship like that? Maybe masochists would enjoy it, but not I, I'm afraid. Tsunderes that are always aggressive (even after going dere) are actually of minority in VNs, most of them do warm up permanently. Tsundere are generally popular because to some people, they are more interesting than default-deredere (which can come as dull) and they becomes motivated to learn their backstory and wanting to unlock their "dere" side, which is normally a lot more powerful than the non-tsundere counterparts. Others deem their behaviour as annoying, unrealistic and bitchy, and is overly generic. Many people also misunderstand the concepts of Tsunderes. Tsundere does not mean that a girl has to be aggressive, being cold towards another or must have a dark past to qualify. Even a girl that has 80% dere and 20% tsun can also be considered tsundere. The common trait they share is normally not being honest about their feelings, even if they are nice to the protagonist 90% of the time (action-wise, but not admitting when questioned type). In fact, they can vary greatly and it is up to the story to decide their depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Poltroon Posted August 8, 2014 Share Posted August 8, 2014 Many people also misunderstand the concepts of Tsunderes. Tsundere does not mean that a girl has to be aggressive, being cold towards another or must have a dark past to qualify. Even a girl that has 80% dere and 20% tsun can also be considered tsundere. The common trait they share is normally not being honest about their feelings, even if they are nice to the protagonist 90% of the time (action-wise, but not admitting when questioned type). In fact, they can vary greatly and it is up to the story to decide their depth. Yes, I am aware. Of the top of my head I can't remember any, but I have seen some like this. Since you, sir, seem to be very knowledgeable about this, have you played If My Heart Had Wings? If so, would you say Kotori is a Tsundere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avil Posted August 8, 2014 Author Share Posted August 8, 2014 Kotori is a tsundere but an extremely pleasant one, first her tsun is not extreme and she warms up not only with the mc but also with ageha and the rest of the girls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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