Author vs Translator

[babiker]

This has been a topic that had started quite some time ago, when people were questioning if it was OK for a translator to take out h scenes. Then people started asking: What is the role of a translator anyways?  How much can he edit in the work he's translating? How much editing is too much? Should he stick as close to the original as possible, pleasing himself and the author, or should he focus more on pleasing the people, the new audience, so as to make it as acceptable as possible, so it may spread more? Can a translation be equal to the original? All these were questions that suddenly came, and judging there importance and depth, I thought this deserved a special topic.

 

Ren has already hosted an episode of the Fuwacast about it, that I, along with Akissblade and Major, have joined. You might wanna check it out first. Thanks a ton, Ren!

http://www.mixcloud.com/OriginalRen/fuwanovel-podcast-episode-6/

 

I had wanted to this much earlier, but didn't because i thought I'd let the Fuwacast episode be don first.

 

Oh, and the reason I've posted this topic here in the general discussion  is because I think this topic is not restricted to VN's, it could be about any work of art, ie movies, books, novels, etc.

 

I'd also like to post my thoughts here, that I've originally posted on the h scene thread:-

aid.

? Before anything, I must exclaim that i have been translating different stuff (ie: movies, books, conversations) for almost a decade(8 years now) . From English to Arabic, witch i'm fluent in, and from Arabic to English. so , even if i don't know any Japanese, i can still say a thing or two about translating. (not bragging here, just making things clear)



First and foremost; a translators job is not simply to change the language; its to change the entire work. The usual goal is for the targeted audience to receive the same meaning and feeling the original work possessed.



And usually, to achieve this goal, many things have to be changed in the original, including removing stuff the new audience might find annoying, unnecessary, or out right insulting. And of course not all the targeted audience will agree on one thing; but if, per say, most people in the west find something like h-scenes to be offensive; then the only reasonable thing the translator should do is remove them; so they may reach a larger audience.



But if the translator does not care if it reaches a larger audience or not, and just want's the translation to be as close to the original as possible, then that's his choice. At the end of the day a translator is a changer, whose mission is to make his translation:-

1. As close to the original as possible

2. As acceptable to the new audience as possible.



And sometimes these two goals clash, and the translator is forced to choose one to prioritize over the other. Witch is why its better to have more than one translation; each one with a different priority.



And while i also prefer my VN's without h-scenes,( i probably hate them more than anyone around here does), i think that any VN, that has h-scenes, should have at least two translated versions: one made with the purpose of reaching a large audience, and one with the purpose of staying as close to the original as possible.



And just a last note: you can never have a translation that's equal to the original. if you want the original that badly, your best choice is to learn the original language, which is in this case, Japanese.

[Mephisto]

I think it's okay for our translators to use google translate as long as the translation is in english.

        - The english visual novel community

[greenshadow622]

I don't think there's any one perfect solution when translating. There's never going to be a single translation that satisfies 100% of people, as babiker said. Staying as close to the original as possible while still conveying as much of the original meaning in a manner that the target audience will understand is not an easy thing to achieve, and is more of an art than a science. That's my opinion at least.

[Okami]

How much can he edit in work he's translating?

 

If it's a fan-tl he can do it however he thinks is best it's a charity work so people shouldn't have a right to complain.

If it's an official localization, once again they bought the rights/made a deal so they can do it however they find it to be best.

 

Either way I think that translators have a right to do it however they think is best. And like greenshadow said "There's never going to be a single translation that satisfies 100% of people".

 

What some people don't seem to get is that translation simply can't ever be 100% true to the original and 100% acceptable to the new audience at a same time, it's like asking to have 1l of cola and 1l of water in a bottle of 1l it's simply not possible. And finding a right balance between the two is also a part of translation. It's also not an option to chose just one of the two as if it ware just 100% true to the original it will sound completely weird and if it's just 100% acceptable to the new audience it won't be that VN anymore.

 

However the biggest problem is not finding a right balance between the two but a part "acceptable to the new audience" it self as this new audience is highly divided.

[Clephas]

Google translate is worthless.  That isn't translation... because it can't even grab basic grammar, which is just pathetic.  You'd think that it would at least be at a level where it can take care of formulaic sentences, but it can't.

[cryofrzd]

I think translators can do pretty much whatever they want with the text. However if he calls the result a translation he should strive to as much information through without obscuring the text with too much unnatural usage of the target language.

 

Translating is not a one-to-one function, sometimes you have to widen the possible interpretation, sometimes narrow it. If you want to remove or add whole segments of text, call it a revision.

 

I think google translate can be used, if the translation is checked against the source by someone that knows both languages. However I don't think it becomes much faster to do it this way with English to Japanese.

[babiker]

I personally see Google translate as an abomination, something you should only resort to in the most dire of cases, or when you're learning a new language. But to translate a work of art?! Blasphemous!!!

 

I once use to know a guy on an online game who only knew his mother tongue, some European language, and he used Google translate to talk with everyone . Man, was it a pain getting anything out of him. No wonders he never joined any clans... But the point is: something like Google translate shouldn't ever be used to translate something you want to enjoy, especially something that is seen as some kind of literature, like VN's.  Only use it for something you reeeeally need to understand right away.

[cryofrzd]

There are better tools than google translate if you need to know what a word or expression means. I seriously don't see any use of google translate when you get passed basic knowledge required to use a dictionary.

 

If you use google translate for whole sentences instead of dictionary lookup on words you don't know, I wouldn't recommend you to try translating.

 

What do you think about translating into a non-native language?

 

It's partially because English isn't my native language I don't translate, I think you need to use the target language on a daily basis to know which expressions that "sounds less distracting"/"is more normative".

[Okami]

I personally see Google translate as an abomination, something you should only resort to in the most dire of cases, or when you're learning a new language. But to translate a work of art?! Blasphemous!!!

 

I once use to know a guy on an online game who only knew his mother tongue, some European language, and he used Google translate to talk with everyone . Man, was it a pain getting anything out of him. No wonders he never joined any clans... But the point is: something like Google translate shouldn't ever be used to translate something you want to enjoy, especially something that is seen as some kind of literature, like VN's.  Only use it for something you reeeeally need to understand right away.

 

It's not really good for that either as you probably still won't understand anything if you try to use it for understanding a whole sentence. The only thing it can be used for is if you already have a good knowledge of the language and then just get to that one word you are not familiar with. Basically it's useful as a dictionary, but that's all it can really be used for.

[cryofrzd]

Does google translate really do a sufficient work at translating single words?

• It translates nonsense without complains
• It only gives one translation, without exemplification of usage

 

Just use whatever online/electric/book dictionary and you'll get this.

[Okami]

Does google translate really do a sufficient work at translating single words?

• It translates nonsense without complains
• It only gives one translation, without exemplification of usage

 

Just use whatever online/electric/book dictionary and you'll get this.

 

When it comes to single word it is highly correct, if you are speaking 2 languages give it a try and you will see.

If more then one tranaslation for that word exist it gives you all of them, and you don't really need exemplification of usage.

[Katatsumuri]

I... think we should get a clear view of the whole "translator" bit:

 

Changing the work for the benefit of the culture it is translated for, is Localization. For example, terms and objects are changed to correspond to the values of the demographic the work is intended for. Or so most sources say...

 

Here we are dealing with translations, which is NOT the same as localization (Although translation is a stepping stone for localization). Making a translation is all about whether  or not the translator aims for:

 

A. Making a faithful translation, preserving everything in it's format, values, and meaning. In theory, it is the most accurate way of translation, due to it preserving the complete meaning of the original work.

 

Or:

 

B. Making a Transparent translation. And by transparency, it means that the text appears to be written in the "translated-to" language in the first place. It will look good, but will most likely loose some of the meaning...

 

The biggest problem for a translator, is whether or not the translation will be faithful, or Transparent. Obviously, it cannot be both, and it will most likely be a compromise between the two.

 

But in practice, it all depends on whether the project is aiming for a localization, or merely a translation.

While there might be exceptions, I'd say that a localization is the one which is least faithful to the original text, while the translation is more faithful.

 

(I don't really know much about this topic though, so correct me if I am wrong)

[babiker]

The difference between a localization and a translation can be forgotten easily when your doing either one of them. When you're just translating, you usually end up having to change a few things regardless, though it really depends on the audiance.

Like VN's for instance. You will find that in VN translations, they rarely translate "oni-chan" to big brother. Why? Because the targeted audiance have probably watched alot of anime, and who hasn't heared that word a million times already?

If he, the translator, was targeting a non-anime -watching audiance, it would be wiser to translate onichan. So at the end of the day, it depends on what the translator wants, and there is very little difference between localization and translation, so as you mentioned, the end result usually ends up between the two.

[Zakamutt]

onichan

鬼ちゃん

*veinpop*

Anyway, part of the point with the generally less localized fantl we see in VNs today is that the current audience is unlikely to extend to people out of the jp cultural bubble for the most part. In this way, it is optimally presented for the intended audience. In most cases, the VNs being translated aren't that good for use as entry-level novels anyway.

[Clephas]

Google translate also can't handle abstract words and concepts very well... though that's partially because the actual translation of a number of abstract words from Japanese to English is completely dependent on context.  Straight 'dictionary' translations don't do any good in cases like that.

[Dark Ariel7]

I am a firm believer in the author. A translator's job is to translate. NOT to create or edit. To translate means to express the sense of (words or text) in another language. The bare minimum of creative license if afforded so that you may do so better.

I really think that a translator should only change something when the audience will simply not understand. And even then, I actually believe that the audience should go through the trouble of at least looking up something they don't understand.

 

The best example of this is probably honorifics.  Is there a translation for Senpai or Sama? Yes and no. Sure you can write upperclassman or sir. However, in english these words have very different intonation and come off as very stiff. If you want to read stuff from Japan the bare minimum that you need to do as the audience is getting to know these types of things.

 

Seriously how hard would it be to smoothly translate Kuudere in a sentence? Or even loli.

[Clephas]

With moege, it isn't that difficult for a decent translator to transform the majority of shared concepts from Japanese to English... but in more complex games, with more abstract wording and literary flair, the difficulty shoots up exponentially.  Keeping the meaning of a line without making it read awkwardly is an art that most translators never master...

 

Edit:  As an extreme example, take Dies Irae.  Because some of the lines run to thirty words or more, with a lot of roundabout language, the average translator wouldn't even be able to approximate it.  Games like Grisaia are pretty much the limit for a 'good' translator. 

[Cyrillej1]

I personally think, out of respect for the author's work.. It's best to try translating as closely as possible to the original meaning that the author tried to convey.  However, I think it's okay to make some adjustments if it sounds awkward or unnatural in the target language.  After all, if it's being translated in English, it should be readable & understandable for the English audience. 

[Yeah Way]

I've noticed that recently, as my Japanese improves, I'm noticing more discrepancies between spoken dialogue and English text. 

My realisation with this ability was that I mostly agreed with the translators' decisions. Literal translations simply don't work as well in English, whether it be humour, drama, rhetoric, etc. Besides, the vast majority of readers won't ever know about such changes, and those who do can then obviously compare the two and decide for themselves which to accept. 

 

In short, a competent translator or editor should have every right to 'improve upon' an English translation for their English-speaking audience.

[Clephas]

It would be more appropriate to say that the idea of a literal translation from Japanese to English is an oxymoron (outside of object nouns and scientific terms).

[edwd2]

Calvino would have some things to say on this...

[Darklord Rooke]

 

onichan
鬼ちゃん
*veinpop*

Anyway, part of the point with the generally less localized fantl we see in VNs today is that the current audience is unlikely to extend to people out of the jp cultural bubble for the most part. In this way, it is optimally presented for the intended audience. 

 

Localised doesn't just mean words and concepts are kept accurately, it also means sentence structure and language habits are changed to suit the target audience.Sentence structure causes a lot of problems, if I understand correctly(I only understand english but I try and talk to translators because I'm interested in Russian literature, and Japanese shows.)

 

So, for example, Russian sentence structure can be completely different to English, and they can place something at the end of a sentence which refers to something at the beginning of the sentence. Tolstoy used to have these long sentences which sound awkward in english. Take for example this accurately-ish translated sentence from War and Peace 

 

She evidently considered it the proper thing to show by a smile her interest in the general conversation; but, against her will, her eyes under their long, thick lashes kept looking with such passionate girlish adoration at her cousin, who was leaving for the army, that her smile could not deceive anyone for a moment and it was clear that the little cat crouched down only in order to leap up more energetically and play with her cousin as soon as they, like Boris and Natasha, could get out of the drawing room.

 

The cat is a metaphor for the girl being described. A more localised version follows:

 

She seemed to have thought it necessary to get involved in the general conversation if only by smiling, but now, in spite of herself, she found her eyes under their long thick lashes turning to her cousin, who was going off into the army. Her girlish passion bordering on adoration was so obvious that her smile didn't fool anyone; it was clear that the kitten had crouched down only to pounce faster than ever on her cousin and tease him the moment they could get out of the drawing-room like Boris and Natasha.

 

As you can see Tolstoy had a thing for massive, long sentences, and in fact this is what he is known for. I can't remember if it was a statement regarding some Russian language peculiarity or if he just wrote like that, but it makes things awkward to read in english. The comparison is much smoother, but you've lost his distinct style. So to say that keeping things less localised is pandering to the visual novel fanbase is something I don't think is right - we do want things easy to read in english, don't we? I would think that would mean changing the way Japanese sentences are structured somewhat? Which would mean fairly localised, just not OVER localised. I think localisation gets a bad rap, generally speaking. 

 

*If anyone is curious, the faithful rendition of War and Peace was obtained from 'Pevear and Volohnsky's' version, they are an award winning translation team lauded for their accuracy. The more localised version is Anthony Brigg's Britishised version of War and Peace, which keeps a closer sentence structure to Tolstoy than Garnett did, who overlocalised the bejeezus out of it.

[Clephas]

Japanese utilizes implied subjects without pronouns a lot more than English, which is a big problem for inexperienced translators.  It requires you to read the context more closely, and some people just don't have the right mindset for doing so (thus meaning that they never get beyond 'basic translation').  Nine out of ten people who learn from classroom work only will fail at this point (which is incidentally why most jrpg localizations are so half-assed... even the 'good' ones).  Not only that, but the basic sentence structure for Japanese is counter-intuitive for people that have English as their first language.

 

Also, underpinning every aspect of Japanese culture and language is a collectivist mindset, which runs counter to the more individualist mindset which formed modern English. 

[Nyanko]

First: Google translate is not for translating more than 1 or 2 words, if you paste a sentence you might get an idea of what something means, but its not a good translation.

 

Second: What is a translator? Who is a translator?

In my opinion a translator should not need the help of google translate in the first place. I think a lot of people want to translate way too soon and do not understand that "translating" is more than just being able to read Japanese and know how to speak English. First get some experience in little projects if you want to TL in a big project (like a VN). Develop your Japanese and try to translate short parts of text and search/ask for feedback. You can't learn this without feedback.

 

The biggest problem for a translator, is whether or not the translation will be faithful, or Transparent. Obviously, it cannot be both, and it will most likely be a compromise between the two.

 

I can imagine it is really hard for a good translator to make a choice between translating Japanese to English, or really bring over the feeling and meaning of the story to English. Depending on your goal, like Katatsumuri and Clephas already said, "just" translating (literally) won't do the trick.

However, how unbelievable it may sound to people who'd rather learn Japanese and read the original than read an average English translation, there are people who don't mind reading such a translation; they just want to experience the story one way or another in a language they can read. There are not that many translators out there, but if you demand more of a translation, the amount of translators will only decrease..which also means a decrease in English translated VNs.

 

Personally I'm one of those people who is learning Japanse to be able to get the full experience, but I really think the goal of translating and how to do it should be decided by the translation group (with the translator being the person I described at the beginning of this post). If a translation group would translate a VN I already read in Japanese, and the prologue in English is not giving me the same feeling as the original did, does that mean the TL sucks? I see a lot of people think that way, but I really think its useless to make such a comment to the translators and the community that wants to read their patch. They choose to make a good English translation instead of bringing over the original feeling, whether you personally like that or not.

 

About removing H-scenes: There are no rules for a fantranslation group to translate a VN. If a translation group decides to translate a VN you always wanted to read, but they decide their own goal which results into an all-ages patch, the only thing you can do is make a choice for yourself. If you don't want to read this version, you have to see this VN as non-translated, untill another group comes up with another goal in mind, and releases a patch you do want to read. In the meantime a lot of other people enjoyed the previous released all-ages patch.

Whether those patches are good or not all depends on preferences and opinions, and this results in a lot of unwritten rules. I really think a translator that delivers an English all-ages patch with decent translation quality should not be a victim of these selfish comments. If he did not translate it, it would still be the same untranslated VN a big part of the community won't be able to read.

[Clephas]

With the H-scenes... most translators don't want anything to do with them.  So, don't be surprised if their translations are much worse than the rest of the game.  It's one thing to read one, it's quite another to try to translate one *Clephas is speaking from experience*

 

Frankly, I don't have the corresponding English vocab for sexual terms in some cases.  I've never had anything to do with H in English, outside of the occasional scene in a novel I was reading.