May DRM free novels sell more

[Sioxz]

hi i just found this link http://torrentfreak.com/what-piracy-removing-drm-boosts-music-sales-by-10-percent-131130/ on the swedish pirate partys FB feed and it takes up some real life statstik about how music sells better DRM free nearly 10% more and i was wondering

if visual novels would sell better if they were DRM free and if this do happen will all kinds off things be easier like making patches for the game to diffrent languges and even invoke the creators to make more and better game becasue the games sell (or worse games as they rush out the games to get more money)

 

what are you thoughs and oppinons on this?

 

i made it an Public poll becasue no one will judge you of what you pick

 

and is there any case off an DRM free game selling more then a game with DRM?

[Zakamutt]

I'll note that some japanese developers apparently demand DRM to be used on their novels, whether the localization company really wants to or not.

[Nosebleed]

I highly doubt there will ever be DRM Free novels, or any sort of non-free software for the matter

The reasons are obvious, to avoid abuse of the software and to give companies more money, this is nothing out of the ordinary.

As far as if DRM free novels would make better sales, it's kind of a tough guess. 

There's also different types of DRM so maybe taking other options is better than making it DRM free 

Let's make an example. I buy Clannad the regular edition.

I only have one personal computer that i will use it on. In my family no one will care to read it and i have near 0 friends in real life that would be interested in borrowing it from me as well. It makes little sense to make it DRM free because there's hardly any need to install the game in different devices at once. You can say "oh but what if i boot my computer?" the thing is booting your computer is something you're not really supposed to do in the first place. And I'm sure that the DRM in novels allows for a certain amount of installs though.

Even if the game has DRM and you want to give it to a friend it will always have a way to be hacked, this will happen for the rest of eternity. And even if you don't hack it you'll probably just teach your friend how to download it.

If you're a true fan of the novel you will buy it and use it for yourself. If someone else is a fan of the novel they should do the same too.

 

So my final opinion is that it wouldn't really matter much. You buy the game if you're a fan and you don't buy it if you're not.

Removing DRM is a huge risk in numerous ways

[Nayleen]

Possibly.

 

Do we know? Do we have the means to track it since sales numbers aren't really published for VNs/eroge like for other media? No.

 

Is the market even big enough to warrant having this discussion? No.

 

Is the DRM on VNs as restrictive as it is for other media, especially other games? No, with some exceptions like DRAMAtical Murder authenticating through the internet.

 

Would a DRM-free release attract additional customers? Yes, but we're talking about an increase that might be outweighed by an increase in piracy, so it's not worth the opportunity cost.

 

I don't think it's worth it.

[Sioxz]

I highly doubt there will ever be DRM Free novels, or any sort of non-free software for the matter

The reasons are obvious, to avoid abuse of the software and to give companies more money, this is nothing out of the ordinary.

As far as if DRM free novels would make better sales, it's kind of a tough guess. 

There's also different types of DRM so maybe taking other options is better than making it DRM free 

Let's make an example. I buy Clannad the regular edition.

I only have one personal computer that i will use it on. In my family no one will care to read it and i have near 0 friends in real life that would be interested in borrowing it from me as well. It makes little sense to make it DRM free because there's hardly any need to install the game in different devices at once. You can say "oh but what if i boot my computer?" the thing is booting your computer is something you're not really supposed to do in the first place. 

Even if the game has DRM and you want to give it to a friend it will always have a way to be hacked, this will happen for the rest of eternity. And even if you don't hack it you'll probably just teach your friend how to download it.

If you're a true fan of the novel you will buy it and use it for yourself. If someone else is a fan of the novel they should do the same too.

I'm sure that the DRM in novels allows for a certain amount of installs though.

So my final opinion is that it wouldn't really matter much. You buy the game if you're a fan and you don't buy it if you're not.

Removing DRM is a huge risk in numerous ways

 

as mention in the article the small band/companies that have decided to have DRM free music have better sales then the huge companies that decide to have DRM 

and the most reasonable explantion on this is.

 

that it's easier to share which make it reach more people and gain a bigger audience which means that more people will buy the game becasue they like the pirated copy they downloaded and this makes the company get extra money to make better quality games and maybe lower the prices to reach an even bigger audience which will ultimatley reach an even bigger audience in the west which is a market that they almost never consider (there are special cases on old games)

 

and more piracy don't always mean that it's bad even if they don't buy the game they pirated then maybe they will buy the next game off the same company becasue the first game was so good. well there are always something good about every thing even if people think it's pure evil

(i have read several articles about this by anna troberg and rickard falkvinge over the years i have been a pirate)

[Nosebleed]

I doubt they'll ever consider the western market no matter what you try to do. The only possibility for VNs to be sold in the west is by licensing and that's not up to Japan, Japan won't bother to reach out to the west, the west needs to reach out to Japan.

Music and games are on a different field. Making DRM Free music makes more profit because it attracts costumers and there are measures preventing you from pirating it. That's why selling DRM Free music is not as risky as DRM free games. You also have to differenciate if you're talking about physical copies of the music or digital ones. I can assure you physical copies of music have DRM in them

The risk one would have to take to make a DRM free game is huge. You're pretty much saying something like:

"Okay we put 50.000 dollars into making this game, now we'll make it DRM free so everyone can install it as long as they have one CD"

This would most likely make you lose money rather than earn. It sounds awesome for costumers of course but for a company it's scary, it would make you run away from it if you were in charge of producing the novel. That's why in my opinion i doubt it's of any use to make it DRM free, software wise. It would appeal to some more additional people but the risk behind it is bigger than the profit you'd make. Not worth it at all.

Also like Nayleen said, we don't have any hard data so it's really hard to speculate

[Sioxz]

I doubt they'll ever consider the western market no matter what you try to do. The only possibility for VNs to be sold in the west is by licensing and that's not up to Japan, Japan won't bother to reach out to the west, the west needs to reach out to Japan.

Music and games are on a different field. Making DRM Free music makes more profit because it attracts costumers and there are measures preventing you from pirating it. That's why selling DRM Free music is not as risky as DRM free games. You also have to differenciate if you're talking about physical copies of the music or digital ones. I can assure you physical copies of music have DRM in them

The risk one would have to take to make a DRM free game is huge. You're pretty much saying something like:

"Okay we put 50.000 dollars into making this game, now we'll make it DRM free so everyone can install it as long as they have one CD"

This would most likely make you lose money rather than earn. It sounds awesome for costumers of course but for a company it's scary, it would make you run away from it if you were in charge of producing the novel. That's why in my opinion i doubt it's of any use to make it DRM free, software wise. It would appeal to some more additional people but the risk behind it is bigger than the profit you'd make. Not worth it at all.

Also like Nayleen said, we don't have any hard data so it's really hard to speculate

 

japan can try to do the same as GOG is currently doing selling old games for a good price DRM free and test the waters and if this happens will the result be the same the user will pick up more games from the same company and may be potential customer in the future becasue they took away the DRM from that old game that the company have already profited enough to live on as a company and lowering the price.

 

i think that if japan started to do this would the market get better and more and higher quality game would be realsed as they se a future in the market so that new companys may take a bet on this new game they are making

[Nayleen]

Not likely to ever happen because of xenophobia, I agree with Nosebleed that the west needs to reach out to Japan if they want to make money with their games, it's not going to happen the other way around. Apples and oranges, just because it works for old games - and there IS a market for nostalgic reasons and because old games tend to not work with newer OS versions, which GOG versions DO - doesn't mean it applies to VNs as well, especially since those tend to age way worse than old games do because of artistic directions taken.

 

This is just a whole different thing than music or games, which apply universally to some degree. VNs and eroge in itself are a niche market in Japan already and it's even worse anywhere else. It's just not feasible for them to target any other markets.

[Zakamutt]

Note that most DRM systems that aren't home-rolled actually cut into your profits due to requiring royalties. From http://www.untoldentertainment.com/blog/our-release-plan-for-kahoots/ , an indie developer:

 

Direct Sales

Kahoots™ will be available on UntoldEntertainment.com for $6.99 USD. i’m still not sure how to pull this off. The trouble is with DRM (digital rights management). i can very easily just provide the exe link and put the game behind a PayPal wall, but that does nothing for me if people want to share that exe around.

So there are a number of companies who offer “wrappers”, which are like digital soft taco shells that you roll around your content, and they take care of the whole serial number/version lock/DRM thing for you. The trouble is that these wrappers are either

• hella expensive in the short run, requiring large up-front fees
• hella expensive in the long run, taking a 6-10% cut of profits (in addition to the payment provider’s fee)
• both. Some products charge the fee AND take the cut. Then they slap your mama in the face.

Another intriguing and inflammatory thing the 2D Boy guys said was that you should not worry about DRMing your game. They said you shouldn’t waste precious time and money cooking up a protection scheme, because every game in the history of foreverville has been pirated, and once the protection layer is cracked, it’s like having your unprotected exe floating around out there anyway, so why waste your time?

When i see the business models for a lot of these sharky wrapper companies, i’m tempted to follow 2D Boys’ advice.

[Sioxz]

there IS a market for nostalgic reasons and because old games tend to not work with newer OS versions, which GOG versions DO - doesn't mean it applies to VNs as well, especially since those tend to age way worse than old games do because of artistic directions taken.

 

don't this just make it extra special to offer this kind off service so that people can open thier mind to other special,old art styles out there and enjoy the story that comes with that special artwork with charm and not just be simple minded on the current art style because i am sure there is loads off old VN's out there with horrible art that almost no one would play but haves a super good story asn should those be negleted and sent to the bottom off the sea. When there is a chance off making money on it by selling it DRM free for cheap on a site like GOG and take for Zaka's example the DRM costs money and will still be breached it will take a skilled hacker 10+ minuters to crack it (there is no way a server or any kind off saft ware can be 100% safe and uncrackable if you don't have it on a disk,tape,flash memory and hides it in the closet and that being the only copy and even then is there is still a chance off someone finding the data in you closet by maybe breaking in or maybe you forget it so the next owner off the house found it when he did some spring cleaning. so there ain't any safe way for data)

and if you decide to make the DRM in house will you have to pay salary to the poeple that work on it only to be breached in the end and they need to redo all the work which means more money invested in the salary off the DRM maker

[Darklord Rooke]

and is there any case off an DRM free game selling more then a game with DRM?

 

Considering Steam is a form of DRM, and people agree that using Steam increases sales for developers, I think you'll be hard pressed to find examples.

[Bolverk]

Considering Steam is a form of DRM, and people agree that using Steam increases sales for developers, I think you'll be hard pressed to find examples.

Steam is less of an DRM and more a everything else. And besides, people can crack the steam games as well.

 

Imo DRM is useful for big games companies, but it goes against it's purpose when it makes the product harder to use than it should. I remember I wanted to play my paid for version of Sam and max games on my laptop while in a place I had no internet connection. I had to vertify the game with internet connection to be able to play it. Ridiculous.

 

I think the VN's should be DRM free because they will mostly be pirated anyway. That way more ease of access. Though on the other hand. I remember hearing once of a vn that got a translation and offical english release (mangagamer I think). Most likely it had a lot of sales on that title because no one had made a crack for it for a few weeks after it got released.

[Nosebleed]

Steam is less of an DRM and more a everything else. And besides, people can crack the steam games as well.

 

Imo DRM is useful for big games companies, but it goes against it's purpose when it makes the product harder to use than it should. I remember I wanted to play my paid for version of Sam and max games on my laptop while in a place I had no internet connection. I had to vertify the game with internet connection to be able to play it. Ridiculous.

 

I think the VN's should be DRM free because they will mostly be pirated anyway. That way more ease of access. Though on the other hand. I remember hearing once of a vn that got a translation and offical english release (mangagamer I think). Most likely it had a lot of sales on that title because no one had made a crack for it for a few weeks after it got released.

 

Everything can be hacked. This is one of those universal truths.

Making games DRM free presents a lot of risks for any company. It's good for you the user but it's not good for sales, that's the main point, is it good for sales? No.

The VN/Eroge market is smaller than you might think. If you made it DRM free you're asking to estinguish a lot of companies that produce VN/Eroge. You talk about ease of access but that's not really the case. That game you had had a DRM that requires you to be online in order to play. There's many different forms of DRM and in VN/Eroge the type of DRM that exists is the type that doesn't let you install the game after a certain amount of devices used that CD. Therefore your point in this is not valid.

Mangagamer makes official english releases yes but i assure you the bigger portion of their sales goes to Japan. Japan could care less about the western market, it wouldn't make nearly as much as they make in Japan alone.The licensing deals are very very rare and big titles will almost never have an official english release. The companies are against hacking the games and making unofficial patches as well. Basically what you're asking is for companies to go bankrupt.

As a user all this sounds great but in the long term it would have a huge impact. I like to save my money but i also like to have my VNs, it can't be helped.

[Bolverk]

Everything can be hacked. This is one of those universal truths.

Making games DRM free presents a lot of risks for any company. It's good for you the user but it's not good for sales, that's the main point, is it good for sales? No.

The VN/Eroge market is smaller than you might think. If you made it DRM free you're asking to estinguish a lot of companies that produce VN/Eroge. You talk about ease of access but that's not really the case. That game you had had a DRM that requires you to be online in order to play. There's many different forms of DRM and in VN/Eroge the type of DRM that exists is the type that doesn't let you install the game after a certain amount of devices used that CD. Therefore your point in this is not valid.

Mangagamer makes official english releases yes but i assure you the bigger portion of their sales goes to Japan. Japan could care less about the western market, it wouldn't make nearly as much as they make in Japan alone.The licensing deals are very very rare and big titles will almost never have an official english release. The companies are against hacking the games and making unofficial patches as well. Basically what you're asking is for companies to go bankrupt.

As a user all this sounds great but in the long term it would have a huge impact. I like to save my money but i also like to have my VNs, it can't be helped.

 

First I am thinking about the current market for visual novels here in the west. So mangagamer, jast and moenovel.

The thing I am really questioning is how much making the DRM free will affect the sales. Considering the market is already heavy loaded pirates. If you search on the web you will likely find lots of different research and opinions on what's best. Imo it's more of a case by case basis. Similar to piracy it affects sales, but to which extent and negative or positive is not. It is more a case by case basis how it affects.

As for my personal experience with DRM was just an example of a DRM actually stopping the user from using the product. That's how far companies can go to "protect" their products. Ofc there are different DRM's, most of them are not that troublesome for the user tho.

 

Regardless of that. I find it doubtful that japanese companies would agree to making their english releases DRM free.

[Cryptah]

If the DRM is done right it will most likely boost the sales, but as long as DRM is causing harm or problems towards paying customers it's bad. Good DRM would be the one you won't even notice or is really simple like steam (atleast in most cases), but games that require internet connection to verify something brings that extra step that everyone hates.

Company who creates games will decided what they will do with that, but it's like gambling. Some customer's are happy to see DRM free, but it may lead to huge sales loss when game is borrowed to friend or torrent appears instantly after release for free. 

It's just up to the customers to show that they want DRM free and use your money to vote. That's all it requires really.

[RusAnon]

MangaGamer explained it numerous times that their sales data clearly indicate that DRM helps. Once game is hacked and uploaded on warez-site-we-all-know-about, sales immediately drop to almost zero.

 

Sadly, existing VN community is too used to "everything is free" concept and it wouldn't reform with just "positive" measures from licensing companies (like removing DRM or lowering prices), applying pressure on warez sites up to launching criminal investigations is also nessesary. Get rid of EG, AS and nyaa and market would become much more healthier already.

[solidbatman]

I think offering some incentive to buy a VN would help. Jast USA and the S;G LE is one good way to do it. Go all digital, and there is no incentive to buy for people who are used to getting it for free. Offer something extra with a physical copy, and suddenly it's a bit different. That said, that would be a lot more cost of the localizer, costs that they might not be able to afford. 

[Sioxz]

I think offering some incentive to buy a VN would help. Jast USA and the S;G LE is one good way to do it. Go all digital, and there is no incentive to buy for people who are used to getting it for free. Offer something extra with a physical copy, and suddenly it's a bit different. That said, that would be a lot more cost of the localizer, costs that they might not be able to afford. 

 

i have a shit long list off VN's i need to buy when i get my 18+ Visa card so i will buy almost all my VN's from then on but for now do i have no easy way off paying the companies (this is not an excuse as i can ask my parents to buy porn games for if i so want) 

[sanahtlig]

Mangagamer and JAST appear to have different strategies when it comes to DRM.  Mangagamer has good evidence that intact DRM is important for digital sales.  In contrast, JAST USA's recent releases have been DRM-free, although they used to include DRM with all titles.  I think the two strategies reflect the different audiences they're trying to target.  Mangagamer is currently targeting the porn and hardcore VN audiences, who tend to only pay for something they can't pirate.  JAST is targeting a wider swathe of customers that shop at places like RightStuf and PlayAsia, for whom DRM may not increase sales and might even decrease sales.  MG also does DRM-free physical releases--but only after initial sales of the digital version are successful.

 

Keep in mind that DRM costs money both to implement and to deal with the customer support issues that inevitably arise.  Most companies would jump at the chance to cut costs if doing so wouldn't harm sales or harm their negotiating position with other companies.

[RusAnon]

Keep in mind that DRM costs money both to implement and to deal with the customer support issues that inevitably arise.  Most companies would jump at the chance to cut costs if doing so wouldn't harm sales or harm their negotiating position with other companies.

 

Adding soft-denchi which MG uses is quite fast and straightforward process, it takes only several hours max for implementation and testing.

[sanahtlig]

By "implement", I primarily meant purchasing and/or renting the license to use the DRM with their products.

 

As an aside, according to the most recent J-List blog post JAST USA's titles are now all DRM-free.  While I'm usually leery of any claims by Peter Payne (since he's known for sugar-coating and hyperbole), if true it indicates a complete departure from DRM in their business model.

[meru]

I think offering some incentive to buy a VN would help. Jast USA and the S;G LE is one good way to do it. Go all digital, and there is no incentive to buy for people who are used to getting it for free. Offer something extra with a physical copy, and suddenly it's a bit different. That said, that would be a lot more cost of the localizer, costs that they might not be able to afford. 

 

The problem is that from the company's POV they shouldn't need to offer an incentive - downloading their games for free is illegal and people shouldn't need to be persuaded to not do it. This kind of thinking is (imo) outdated, and they need to realize that trying to hammer home the idea that illegal downloading is stealing is just not gonna work for those of us who have grown up doing it. I can't say I actually have a business plan for them, but for a start I'd like to see websites like Mangagamer looking more like GOG or something, where you have an account and a virtual library to look at all your purchases.

[RusAnon]

I'd like to see websites like Mangagamer looking more like GOG or something, where you have an account and a virtual library to look at all your purchases.

Ummm, thats exactly how it worked for a long time already, http://rghost.net/private/50719774/fd99b4a2091f5016f289e94dc4f3baa2.view

[meru]

Ummm, thats exactly how it worked for a long time already, http://rghost.net/private/50719774/fd99b4a2091f5016f289e94dc4f3baa2.view

I know that they technically have that feature, but it still feels very much like looking at an order list rather than a collection. I'm talking more about the look and feel of it.. the experience for the customer is so important when dealing with digital products. Just look how well Steam's doing - they've created a whole community, even a sense of conpetition when it comes to buying games and showing off your list. At the moment MG doesn't offer much except a way to purchase things that could easily be (illegally) downloaded elsewhere.

[sanahtlig]

The amount of polish you're asking for is way outside the scope of Mangagamer's current budget and operations.  Any effort they put into "improving customer experience" is effort they could've used to release a new game, or more importantly, market their titles at the type of people that would actually be inclined to buy them.  They don't have money to burn on efforts that aren't guaranteed to reap a return.  They don't even have a web design person on their team; as far as I know they beg Japanese developers to do it for them in their spare time.  Simply redesigning their mascot was a huge splurge for them.

 

While JAST has greater resources at their disposal, both Mangagamer and JAST are essentially shoe-string operations because that's all the market will currently support.  More important than designing a smooth retail portal is getting OTHER retail portals (like Steam and Amazon) to carry their games.  Why reinvent the wheel when there's operations already in place that can do the same thing better and more efficiently?