Angepinion: Some Visual Novels Are TOO LONG

[NowItsAngeTime]

I think some visual novels which SHOULD be masterpieces end up at least partially brought down by being too long and in turn bad pacing. In this video I want to show what I consider good and bad pacing in visual novels.

 

 

[Erogamer]

I disagree on especially the first Grisaia game. It was well written and it needed the length to really tell and flesh out the story. I mean if you are going to talk about writing, there are a lot of very good books that are long. Some people don't have the patience or attention span I guess.

[NowItsAngeTime]

10 minutes ago, Erogamer said:

I disagree on especially the first Grisaia game. It was well written and it needed the length to really tell and flesh out the story. I mean if you are going to talk about writing, there are a lot of very good books that are long. Some people don't have the patience or attention span I guess.

Ah yes the reusing the same gags for 10-15 hours straight, best way to flesh out the story

[Dreamysyu]

It's interesting that I kind of agree with the premise of the video, but I pretty much disagree with all examples given that I personally played. Maybe except Muv Luv Extra.

[Clephas]

To be honest, this isn't one of your better videos...  Length preferences are entirely a matter of taste and most VNs are too short, not too long.  A lot of VNs cut out stuff so that they have excuses to make fandiscs, after all.   

To some extent, I can agree that Hoshi Ori is too long, but for a certain crowd (who want to follow the romance until they are in the grave) it is an attractive game.

Your comments on Dies Irae were malicious and excessive.  It was like listening to a 4chan troll's rant.  I also found it amusing you were comparing it to Fate/Stay Night, when the experiences are completely different except for the beginning.  Instead of pointing out things that could have been cut out to shorten the game (which was supposedly the premise of the video), you immediately decided to bash it in general, which kinda defeats the point of including it in the first place. 

[Erogamer]

10 hours ago, NowItsAngeTime said:

Ah yes the reusing the same gags for 10-15 hours straight, best way to flesh out the story

Um no.......but ok. I found the common route in Grisaia to be very good. Sakura Moyu is another example of a VN that is long but very good. As far as reusing gags goes, I see that more in moege than anything else. If it is long and boring then I get it. However, if it is long and keeps you captivated, then there is nothing wrong with it being a longer VN.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Erogamer

[Zalor]

14 hours ago, Clephas said:

To be honest, this isn't one of your better videos...  Length preferences are entirely a matter of taste and most VNs are too short, not too long.  A lot of VNs cut out stuff so that they have excuses to make fandiscs, after all.   

To some extent, I can agree that Hoshi Ori is too long, but for a certain crowd (who want to follow the romance until they are in the grave) it is an attractive game.

Your comments on Dies Irae were malicious and excessive.  It was like listening to a 4chan troll's rant.  I also found it amusing you were comparing it to Fate/Stay Night, when the experiences are completely different except for the beginning.  Instead of pointing out things that could have been cut out to shorten the game (which was supposedly the premise of the video), you immediately decided to bash it in general, which kinda defeats the point of including it in the first place. 

Interesting that you say that most VNs are too short. I feel like VNs are awfully padded out a lot of the time. Instead of showing us what's necessary, they'll beat us with the same SOL dynamics for ages and consider that "character development." That said, I completely agree with you on Dies Irae. I feel like Ange doesn't like the work (which in and of itself is fine), but used the video as an excuse to bash on it without sticking to the topic at hand.

I should also add that the writing in Dies Irae's fight scenes is superb and I couldn't disagree more with this take from the video. It's about one of the few VNs where I actually go back time to time and reread the fights.

[Dreamysyu]

3 hours ago, Zalor said:

I feel like VNs are awfully padded out a lot of the time. Instead of showing us what's necessary, they'll beat us with the same SOL dynamics for ages and consider that "character development."

That's true. However, I do think that SOL can be pretty good for character development. I've seen plenty of good examples in anime, manga, and LNs. At the same time, honestly, I can't think of any good example of a VN that did something like that. Overall, most SOL parts in VNs are either comedy, which can range from very good to awful, or just useless filler.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Dreamysyu

[Clephas]

23 hours ago, Zalor said:

Interesting that you say that most VNs are too short. I feel like VNs are awfully padded out a lot of the time. Instead of showing us what's necessary, they'll beat us with the same SOL dynamics for ages and consider that "character development." That said, I completely agree with you on Dies Irae. I feel like Ange doesn't like the work (which in and of itself is fine), but used the video as an excuse to bash on it without sticking to the topic at hand.

I should also add that the writing in Dies Irae's fight scenes is superb and I couldn't disagree more with this take from the video. It's about one of the few VNs where I actually go back time to time and reread the fights.

His comment about plotge being too padded/long is the one I was referring to.  Mindless SOL and repeated dating scenes are unnecessary fluff even in SOL games, because they often don't do anything for the character dynamics or character development, which is supposed to be the point.  I tend to subconsciously ignore that type of VN now that I don't feel like I have to play them all the time.  

Generally speaking, even in a romance SOL VN, you only need one or at the most two dating scenes that don't lead into drama or the conflict of the path.  However, some companies (Yuzusoft comes to mind) include way too many date scenes (not to mention interminably long h-scenes), resulting in a lot of unnecessary padding.  To be blunt, it might sound counter-intuitive, but I often thought of dating as non-SOL content, because (unless the characters are married or the characters have had numerous lovers) dating is a deliberate departure from daily life, a low-level stress-test for romantic relationships because 'dating' has been so beautified in anime culture.

Despite jokes about cutting Kasumi's path (a lot of fans make that joke), there is very little you could cut from Dies Irae without weakening it.  Dies Irae is a detail-oriented VN in the sense that every detail has its place in the story, right down to the deliberately exaggerated personalities of the main characters on both sides of the conflict.  

Similarly, I can't see a reason to cut anything out of Muv-Luv Alternative (though Muv-luv itself could have done with a major trim).  

Hoshi Ori Yume Mirai and the other games by that company actually base their appeal an their extremely detailed romance from high school to full adulthood, developing the relationship and having numerous tribulations.  In that sense, I give that company kudos, because it got them a solid fanbase.  However, it doesn't appeal to the people who want 'quick in, quick out' SOL romances like Wagamama High Spec.  

Another thing that needs to be accounted for is reading speed.  Even in English, there are people who simply don't read that quickly and those who read excessively fast.  For me, completing an 800 page paperback novel in six hours is normal, but for most people that is the work of weeks of scattered reading or several days of concentrated reading.  The disparity is inevitably going to lead to differing opinions and preferences for VN length and narration styles.  

Someone who takes ten minutes to read a page in a novel probably isn't going to like a narrated battle scene that goes on for the equivalent of forty pages.  Whereas for me it is simply entertaining.

Not to mention those VN fans who work full time aren't going to have enough free time to really enjoy a VN like Dies Irae even if they have an average or slightly above average reading speed.  For someone like that, the wordiness of a game like Dies Irae isn't something to relish but something that eats into their free time more than they think is necessary.

... why am I defending my opponents?  Stupid fairness brain...

 

[HataVNI]

Are you sure? I definitely thought that Dies Irae could've stood entirely on its own just doing Common into Side stories into Marie/Rei Route. The Kei and Kasumi routes felt really much just like alternatives for those liking these characters – plus some of the backstory they gave on them and also some of the Longinus 13 Orden were important for the whole thing. Maybe I appreciate them more after more Shinza stuff, but not sure about them being so significant for Dies Irae in itself.

Generally I liked reading them all though.

[Bredan]

I loved MuvLuv Alt, but I have to admit : even Age thought of the briefing scenes as a bit long, possibly tedious as is proved by the fact they gave one of the best BGM to those very briefing scenes. QED. (Youtube)

Edited August 13, 2023 by HataVNI
Clarified that it links to YouTube.

[LAsuka]

Games are excessively long and padded out because writers are paid based on the number of lines they write.

Even if you feel "every scene is necessary" or if you feel the VN is too short, that's because the writer did a very good job masking the fluff, and making the fluff seem "integral" to the story, when in actual fact, it adds absolutely no value, and is the writer just pulling ideas from (for lack of a better term) his ass. But hey, if you thought the fluff was good, more power to you. The work exists for the reader, after all.

[HataVNI]

8 minutes ago, LAsuka said:

Games are excessively long and padded out because writers are paid based on the number of lines they write.

Even if you feel "every scene is necessary" or if you feel the VN is too short, that's because the writer did a very good job masking the fluff, and making the fluff seem "integral" to the story, when in actual fact, it adds absolutely no value, and is the writer just pulling ideas from (for lack of a better term) his ass. But hey, if you thought the fluff was good, more power to you. The work exists for the reader, after all.

I heard this so often, but I never found a source for this quote. Maybe we should invite some JP scenario writers to talk about this topic on the blog. If you have an interview or something similar, point me towards this. 

[Clephas]

4 hours ago, LAsuka said:

Games are excessively long and padded out because writers are paid based on the number of lines they write.

Even if you feel "every scene is necessary" or if you feel the VN is too short, that's because the writer did a very good job masking the fluff, and making the fluff seem "integral" to the story, when in actual fact, it adds absolutely no value, and is the writer just pulling ideas from (for lack of a better term) his ass. But hey, if you thought the fluff was good, more power to you. The work exists for the reader, after all.

Translators are the ones paid by the word, symbols or lines.  While there might be VN writers out there paid by the line, most of the time when someone hires a writer it is either based on time or by the project.  The company either pays a by the hour salary for time spent in office on the project or a single lump sum to contract for the project.  I have only been hired with a by word count on three occasions in the last twenty years, since it is usually a recipe for contract disputes on both sides.