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Steve

LOLIS: Linked Organized Library Interconnection System

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I have to agree with Stanleys on this.

 

Firstly because it would simplify the whole process, users who are genuinely interested in fuwanovel will contribute to the forums and therefore should be allowed to contribute to the site's poll, though i think 75 is too high, I think just 50 is more than fine, we would see said user's activity and see he/she is genuinely contributing to the site through their posts.

I don't really know. I have some problems with "users who are genuinely interested will contribute to the forums".  There are a lot of members here, and trolls are quite rare. I remember only 1 or 2 of them in my whole time at fuwanovel. I think it would be better to let the highest amount of people contribute. Also, sometimes people simply dislike posting in forums. You can't say everyone's mentality is like ours, and I think that members with a lower amount of posts shouldn't be looked down on.

 

I think it would be better to let any member post there at first. If an eventual troll appears, in that case, he can be dealt with separately. If the amount of trolls is too high, then we can limit it. Also, it doesn't need to be someone from the moderating team. Why not use my first suggestion and let everyone decide?

 

Note that the reasons wouldn't appear at the VN per se. There would be a place that shows all of the reasons for each member, and there would be shotcuts to those reasons in the same place as your post.

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Unless staff and admins are willing to check each and every single recommendation i don't think it's liable, if however there's a different method to check recommendations then i support it. For a personal idea i'd say the recommendation should be put up in a toll for other fuwanovel users with said post count to vote if they agree or not, if a certain number agree then the recommendation passes, if not then it doesn't, at least this would distribute the amount of effort one would have to put to check every single recomendation through the whole fuwanovel community (I'm assuming we're not all lazy here and want to contribute.).

 

Handling the poll would actually be a massive workload. I don't think we're gaining time and effort there.

 

About the post limit thing, basically:

 

 

 

I don't really know. I have some problems with "users who are genuinely interested will contribute to the forums".  There are a lot of members here, and trolls are quite rare. I remember only 1 or 2 of them in my whole time at fuwanovel. I think it would be better to let the highest amount of people contribute. Also, sometimes people simply dislike posting in forums. You can't say everyone's mentality is like ours, and I think that members with a lower amount of posts shouldn't be looked down on.

 

This.

 

For those reasons, and because I'm always for encouraging people to develop constructed opinions, I think the best system would be to make it so that you have to write a bit on why you're making this recommendation. 

There's no need for us staff members to read every single recommendations, we just need a 'report' button for abuses. 

However, I'm not a big fan of the idea of other members deciding (through a poll or a discussion or whatever) which opinion is valid and which isn't. I'd keep it to basic filtering of troll or lack of explanation by a mod through report.

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There's no need for us staff members to read every single recommendations, we just need a 'report' button for abuses. 

Uah! I somehow managed to completely forget about "report" buttons O.o

Somehow I feel like an idiot now...

Yeah, I'd go with that as well.

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I guess i see the point. Either way it's going to be a hassle to apply any sort of filter to begin with.

Honestily i've never seen a troll posting around here though i can't say for sure there isn't one just waiting to strike. If there is it should be dealt with individually with the report button of course i'll agree on that.

Perhaps the LOLIS should just start out as a trial to see everyone's response, keeping it to a basic level of course, allowing every fuwanovel user to rate the novels and recommend novels as well.

From that point onward if there are flaws or abuse is detected we can think which filter is the best to apply to deal with the abuse.

 

"Trial and Error" i think it's what it all comes down to, currently we can only speculate so i think having some hard data is the best starting point to pinpoint problems and make decisions.

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Hey all, 

 

Just want us to remember that any major improvements such as the LOLIS system is still theoretical, and even if implemented in some form, are "a long ways off."  The discussion is fantastic, however, and I highly suggest you continue with it.

 

If you are able to contribute in a technical (read: coding) form -- see Nayleen's Dev Blog for information on the site's systems -- please let us know.

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I don't really know. I have some problems with "users who are genuinely interested will contribute to the forums".  There are a lot of members here, and trolls are quite rare. I remember only 1 or 2 of them in my whole time at fuwanovel. I think it would be better to let the highest amount of people contribute. Also, sometimes people simply dislike posting in forums. You can't say everyone's mentality is like ours, and I think that members with a lower amount of posts shouldn't be looked down on.

I'm going to have to agree with you on that one. I definitely don't like the idea of looking down on other members due to their post count. However I also don't like the idea of having to write about why you liked or didn't like something. I'm one of those people who have a hard time putting what I feel into words, and if that were a requirement, that may just seem like a bit of a hassle.

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I see how it can be seen as a hierarchy , but the way I'm seeing it, it's more of a way to ensure trusted users are the ones that are able to vote to ensure the amount of trolls are at the minimum.

 

I'm going to have to agree with you on that one. I definitely don't like the idea of looking down on other members due to their post count. However I also don't like the idea of having to write about why you liked or didn't like something. I'm one of those people who have a hard time putting what I feel into words, and if that were a requirement, that may just seem like a bit of a hassle.

 

Hm. First of all, I'd like to point out that the best selling point of fuwanovel for me is that newcomers are treated as"trusted users" from default. No one here is going to show any ill will to you until you show it yourself, and even then they will most likely be incredibly polite which adds to the friendly atmosphere of it.

 

Also, I don't think a big review is needed. Just explain why you liked it in a couple of lines. If you have problems with writing, just make a few points like "artwork", "story", "music", etc, with a one-line description of them. It can't be that hard, right?

 

It could also be done so that no one needs to write anything, but I think that would be worst to the people viewing it... Oh well, what do you think?

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Hm. First of all, I'd like to point out that the best selling point of fuwanovel for me is that newcomers are treated as"trusted users" from default. No one here is going to show any ill will to you until you show it yourself, which adds to the friendly atmosphere of it.

 

Also, I don't think a big review is needed. Just explain why you liked it in a couple of lines. If you have problems with writing, just make a few points like "artwork", "story", "music", etc, with a one-line description of them. It can't be that hard, right?

 

It could also be done so that no one needs to write anything, but I think that would be worst to the people viewing it... Oh well, what do you think?

Well, I'm convinced. I like this idea. Also, if I came off as seeming like I don't trust new members, I'm sorry. I never meant it like that, I'm just overly cautious with some things.

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(just out of line here, did you write the word lolis and attempt to make it an acronym on purpose? Just wondering.)

No, Steve obviously decided to keep things on topic and created a name with completely impartiality, which you can see by looking at this thread tags- lolis, are, cute, moe

See? It's obviously on-topic without any sort of personal feeling there B)

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No, Steve obviously decided to keep things on topic and created a name with completely impartiality, which you can see by looking at this thread tags- lolis, are, cute, moe

See? It's obviously on-topic without any sort of personal feeling there B)

You're right, silly me thinking such absurd things, as if Steve would do something like that.

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I have to agree with Stanleys on this.

 

Firstly because it would simplify the whole process, users who are genuinely interested in fuwanovel will contribute to the forums and therefore should be allowed to contribute to the site's poll, though i think 75 is too high, I think just 50 is more than fine, we would see said user's activity and see he/she is genuinely contributing to the site through their posts.

 

 

I can just be min 10 posts or something, doesn't have to be high. You can judge a person from 10 posts, if it also includes introduction post. And if it is just a spammer or a troll, he will get banned immediately after his first post.

 

 

Why am I against giving full support? Because it'll be abused by some "trolls", as well as the fact that there's a similar system on VNDB that doesn't really work out well. Seriously, I know of some individuals who will just rate a game according to whatever score has the highest votes just to "increase the number of titles played" on their records. That's disgusting. 

 

There is no such system on vndb, vndb has ratings which are personal, I rate games in my scale so I can keep track or explain, not to recommend to other random people on vndb.

That's why I also vote on games where I only played H-scenes, because I want to be able to know which I rated good, I don't actually know how good is the rest of the game.

But that's because numeral rating system is not really that good in anything, movies or whatever. If you want to know if you would like something, you can't just look at a number, you need to either read a review or ask someone you think has similar likings as you do.

And that is what LOLIS is about, you will see people who voted on VNs you liked and people who even recommended link to some other VN and you know you have similar tastes so you will at least visit the page.

And on that page, you can read the short user reviews which will be also the addition.

And from that info you will have much more information than if you would read a number on vndb and some troll comments.

 

 

 

My Thought: Ratings should only be given by those who can use logic and reasoning to justify and present their thoughts in an organized manner, which corresponds to the numerical value they assigned for the game that determines its overall quality.

 

NO!

Liking something isn't logical and doesn't have to be reasonable or organized, you just like what you like and you don't even have to explain it to anyone. If you decide to write a review then yes, you should make it logical and organized so people reading it can understand and its not waste of time for them. But clicking that like button there can be done by a monkey and if a monkey likes it and expresses it then why shouldn't a monkey be able to use it. (and to avoid the malicious monkeys, we would have the 10 post limit so it can't be a trollmonkey instead).

But LOLIS is not popularity contest so number of likes doesn't really matter, the relations and interconnections is what matters, hence the name LOLIS. With that you will see that a monkey liked Clannad and monkey also liked Little Busters, and if you agree with said monkey and liked them too, then you can look for other things that monkey liked and you might also like it. And the intelligence or logic of that monkey has nothing to do with it, you just happened to both enjoy bananas so maybe you will also both enjoy another fruit.

 

 

 

 

 

So again, please don't misunderstand the LOLI System, it is not to determine which VN is the best or worst, it is there to organize the library of VNs on fuwanovel by links and interconnections, making it easier to find other things users might like. And 99% of malicious users trying to flood and spam the system you can filter anyways by simply requiring a forum registration (which was in the concept from the start, using forum user database), the remaining 1% by requiring the minimum 10 posts or something little like that.

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My personal opinion is that if we are going to do this, we should first take a look at what the VN-reading community needs and see which of those needs aren't being fulfilled. First, one thing I noticed on vndb - and tried to remedy by posting comments on each game as I went along, giving a general feeling of what each game was like - was the lack of a centralized area for reviews on individual games.  Most game summaries are basically half-assed translations of the ones from the Japanese game sites, and the results generally don't even vaguely resemble the content of the game beyond outlining a few elements of the setting.  What I post are what could be called mini-reviews, in that I simply make some succinct and easily understood comments about each game, before moving onto the next. My interest is in telling people what they are getting into before they start the game and giving them a general idea of what level of quality to expect.  Since my comments are almost universally story, setting, and character-related, they can't be considered a review in the traditional sense, but since most VN-lovers are story-loving otaku in the first place, that isn't really a problem.

 

Another thing - and this is a problem that has recently been made more public on vndb - is the practice of troll-voting on VNs in order to inflate or deflate their ratings.  If you want to create a database with ratings and the like, you'll need to consider ways to prevent anonymous idiots from registering and ruining your ratings system. 

 

Last - and this is just a bit of advice to those who are letting their idealism get away with them - vndb is well-established for a reason.  It has a devoted community of developers, a large number of users, and a huge database with relatively high levels of detail as these things go.  It isn't erogamescape, but neither is it a weak source of data for English-speaking vn-players.  If you want climb up to their level or do better than them, you can't forget to provide a viable and equal alternative that provides what vndb can't or won't without breaking the bank or letting things get to where the server crashes daily.

 

I'd also suggest running it on a separate service from the main Fuwanovel forum and website.  I say this because a service that gets shutdown at irregular intervals due to false attacks of conscience on the part of providers is not going to last, even with fan support.

 

Edit: Incidentally, I'm not trolling for reactions, just playing devil's advocate.  The VN-reading community in the US can't number more than fifty thousand people, most of whom have only played a few translated VNs alongside regular rpgs and the like.  So, your main support base is probably going to be something around ten to twelve thousand people, whom you will have to draw away from vndb or get them to use you along with vndb. Redundancy of any sort in this kind of small internet community tends to be fatal for the less popular of the two.  As I said above, make sure you are providing services vndb isn't... and if they begin to offer the same services, be prepared to lose.

 

Edit2: I'm probably overestimating the number of VN-readers overall.

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Re-read the original post and your original ideas, but I don't see how LOLIS is NOT a contest of likes. 

 

I mean... If we had a list of titles, and it was ordered by its ratings, wouldn't people first click on the titles that have the highest ratings (or in our case, the highest number of "likes")

 

Unless I'm blind, the example you gave us, Steve, was the title and its "like" stats as well as its "disagreement" stats. 

 

I kinda see where you're coming from with the "linking" of titles, but that's pretty much common sense; if you liked Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, you're probably going to read the second book, and the third book, and etc. Same here; if you liked a game from a certain company, you're probably going to go for the company's other games. 

 

Next. How do you even know if all those people who "link" a title or "disagree with a link" have genuinely played the game?

As far as I'm concerned, when WA2's CC was released, there were dumbasses who voted for the novel on VNDB the very day it was released, and I know it would take at least 2-3 days for someone to read it to even get a general understanding of the plot (aka, not skip everything and say he finished it). 

Hence my suggestion that only "authorized" members be able to "create links", and even better; write up a little review to WHY they think so. (Obviously, this element could be hidden since it can contain spoilers) 

 

In addition, this overall idea can really be simplified if we can make a list of titles, and just put tags on it. VNDB isn't good with this because of how the tags have values and crap, as well as the fact that some tags are plain stupid and unnecessary. 

 

Finally, let me say that this idea in general is very difficult. As you have also mentioned, people have different tastes. However, what "standard" do we have for this system? From all I know, only people like Clephas would be able to "effectively" make use of this system due to the large number of games he played, but what good is it if only one person contributes to all these "links"? Even further, a large majority of the English-restricted players are not benefited by this system because of obvious reasons. 

 

Now if we're restricting all of this to just translated novels, then that's fine. However, if that's going to be the case, I will say that I'm out. 

 

tl;dr. Don't worry about "linking" titles. Figure out some way you can pique the interests of non-Japanese readers to actually learn a bit of Japanese, enough to play VNs for themselves with (or without) a translator. That step is first. 

 

P.S. @Clephas, I'm pretty sure it's going to be a LOT less than that...

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Re-read the original post

 

It really doesn't look like it though, because:

 

but I don't see how LOLIS is NOT a contest of likes. 

 

I mean... If we had a list of titles, and it was ordered by its ratings, wouldn't people first click on the titles that have the highest ratings (or in our case, the highest number of "likes")

 

Never did I say there will be any list or any ordering of any description, the page of fuwanovel would remain exactly the same, with just additional box. In order to actually see what game has the most likes, the potential troll would have to go to every single fuwanovel game and check the number of likes individually.

 

 

In addition, this overall idea can really be simplified if we can make a list of titles, and just put tags on it. VNDB isn't good with this because of how the tags have values and crap, as well as the fact that some tags are plain stupid and unnecessary.

 

That's not even a point of this system at all, not to mention a simplified "genre" tags are already included on fuwanovel, which include stuff like all-ages, drama, romance, comedy, school life, mystery - the basic stuff that a newbie needs, for more detailed information there is link to vndb. And to see them in list you can use FuwaViewer

 

From all I know, only people like Clephas would be able to "effectively" make use of this system due to the large number of games he played, but what good is it if only one person contributes to all these "links"?

 

Clephas would make no use of this system, because it is not targeted at people who already know great deal about VNs. And if you mean people contributing to the system and making the links, it can as well be a person who just played 2 vns and liked them both, he would already be contributing enough by liking them both so other newbies can see it.

 

 

Even further, a large majority of the English-restricted players are not benefited by this system because of obvious reasons. 

 

Now if we're restricting all of this to just translated novels, then that's fine. However, if that's going to be the case, I will say that I'm out.

 

ONLY the English-restricted players are benefited from this system, because it is only for translated VNs, because fuwanovel only lists English translated VNs. I mentioned this on several occasions both in this topic as well as in the topic where this originated. That's why any comparison to vndb is not even logical.

 


So all that makes me really thing you didn't actually read anything xD Or just skimmed through.

 

 

Next. How do you even know if all those people who "link" a title or "disagree with a link" have genuinely played the game?

As far as I'm concerned, when WA2's CC was released, there were dumbasses who voted for the novel on VNDB the very day it was released, and I know it would take at least 2-3 days for someone to read it to even get a general understanding of the plot (aka, not skip everything and say he finished it).

 

You don't know if they genuinely played the game and you don't even need to know that, because it is not important. If someone disagrees with a link after he tried the VN for an hour then ok, he didn't like it so he disagrees and he is well in right to disagree. If he likes it without finishing it then hell, he can just like it from the start and nobody can take it away from him. As for links, if he is the only one or a minority who agreed with a link, it wouldn't even show as there would be a threshold so someone making fake votes wouldn't even show to users.

 

You are just comparing this too much to vndb, which is completely incorrect, that community works completely different than fuwanovel, and if there is a malicious person who just wants to troll fuwanovel (yes, people do that, spam comment boxes and such) then they would be filtered by the registration need and 5-10 post requirement.

There would not be any "authorized member" who would put the links, because that is exactly what would be wrong.

This would be community based contribution to help new players to replace the high number of "recommend me next VN" topics that we have. Anyone would be able to contribute even if they only played low amount of games, because those opinions especially are the most important ones as they would come from people in similar situation like the people whom this system (and fuwanovel in general) is designed for - people new to visual novels who can only read in English.

 

 

tl;dr. Don't worry about "linking" titles. Figure out some way you can pique the interests of non-Japanese readers to actually learn a bit of Japanese, enough to play VNs for themselves with (or without) a translator. That step is first.

 

You say first step should be a process that can take years, instead of just picking up English translated VN through a torrent included on the main website and withing an hour start playing the game? If there was a way to be figured out using which people can learn Japanese in one hour, it would surely be the right way, but I am yet to see a "knowledge injections" that would give you that.

So the process to get people to actually get interested in VNs to actually want to learn Japanese is to first introduce them to VNs in English because those are the VNs they can actually read.

And "bit of Japanese" is not enough to read VNs, not comfortably anyways (without machine TL software). Even after a year you will not be able to read like you would in your first or second language which you already understand for 10+ years (that's for second language, first language you already know since you were born obviously xD).

Most people using fuwanovel never studied Japanese (because it is not even easy, in Europe there is very few universities that have any asian language class, and in my country there is not a single high school that would offer such language).

So those people mostly only know their first language and English, you can't expect them to read Japanese VNs in a year or less, not like they would read in English - that's why English translation exists.

 


 

Well, bottom line

 

The second part of this post is mostly opinion based then and as I already expressed in that old topic, it is good to disagree and have different opinions.

 

The first part was mostly because of you not reading though... or not paying attention and understanding.

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I really love this idea. It should help the new guys who post the recommendation topics. Thats the purpose of it. Not to provide an alternative to vndb, but to just give some recommended VNs directly on their download page(?). I can see a simple way it can be done with just an addition to the download page maybe?

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I really love this idea. It should help the new guys who post the recommendation topics. Thats the purpose of it. Not to provide an alternative to vndb, but to just give some recommended VNs directly on their download page(?). I can see a simple way it can be done with just an addition to the download page maybe?

 

Yes that is correct, the result is only visible on the download page and you might be able to get link to a persons profile to see their preferences and links and such. There would be no listing where you could sort by rating or anything.

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Sounds like a really good idea, if I had a something like that when I started reading VNs, my first VNs wouldn't have been so all over the place. And while I was fine reading Cross Channel as my second VN right after Katawa Shoujo, I'm guessing some people could be put off by something of the sort.

 

You say first step should be a process that can take years, instead of just picking up English translated VN through a torrent included on the main website and withing an hour start playing the game? If there was a way to be figured out using which people can learn Japanese in one hour, it would surely be the right way, but I am yet to see a "knowledge injections" that would give you that.

So the process to get people to actually get interested in VNs to actually want to learn Japanese is to first introduce them to VNs in English because those are the VNs they can actually read.

And "bit of Japanese" is not enough to read VNs, not comfortably anyways (without machine TL software). Even after a year you will not be able to read like you would in your first or second language which you already understand for 10+ years (that's for second language, first language you already know since you were born obviously xD).

Most people using fuwanovel never studied Japanese (because it is not even easy, in Europe there is very few universities that have any asian language class, and in my country there is not a single high school that would offer such language).

So those people mostly only know their first language and English, you can't expect them to read Japanese VNs in a year or less, not like they would read in English - that's why English translation exists.

This, if someone told me a year ago that I should put in the effort to learn a whole new language for the sake of something that might just end up being a passing interest, I'd call them crazy. And yet here I am, now able to understand the most basic of Japanese sentences, but only after I was sure that this wasn't a passing interest and that I actually wanted to put in the effort.

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All I'm going to say is, of course it is trollable.

 

Anything is trollable.

 

That doesn't mean it's a bad idea. The entire objective behind Fuwanovel is to provide Visual novels for people, and get more people interested in the medium. Attaching this to help people find more visual novels that will appeal to them is worth any possible trolling.

 

The way I imagined the implementation is someone writes a review on the game, and then at the end of the review there is a box where you can recommend another game that people may like if they like this game, and attach a short comparison between them. This small recommendation box will be the one people see under 'recommendations'. The full review will be under 'reviews' for the game. Users can then choose to "agree" or "disagree" with the recommendation, and the agree/disagree will be shown.

 

I don't know what this has to do with VNDB at all. We aren't "rating" the games themselves, although maybe it'd be a good idea to add a rating section in the review portion. The well written reviews will naturally rise to the top, and help people get an idea of whether they'll like the game. (If a review is trolling, anyone reading it will skip over it anyway)

 

I personally don't think trolling is a huge issue here. There aren't an awful lot of trolls on these forums, and if a group of people try to do coordinated trolling, I guarantee it's a lot more work for them to organize and troll than it is for us to shut them down.

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I personally don't think trolling is a huge issue here. There aren't an awful lot of trolls on these forums, and if a group of people try to do coordinated trolling, I guarantee it's a lot more work for them to organize and troll than it is for us to shut them down.

^

This. I'm in total agreement with it~

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The way I imagined the implementation is someone writes a review on the game, and then at the end of the review there is a box where you can recommend another game that people may like if they like this game, and attach a short comparison between them. This small recommendation box will be the one people see under 'recommendations'. The full review will be under 'reviews' for the game. Users can then choose to "agree" or "disagree" with the recommendation, and the agree/disagree will be shown.

 

That's actually really good idea, that a link between 2 games would have to be described a bit.

It wouldn't have to be a review of the game because in that way it would have to be review of both games, but having a short description why you think the games are similar could be good and that way you could even try to convince people voting.

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