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Stormwolf

Daitoshokan no Hitsujikai patch out

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16 hours ago, 1P1A said:
  Hide contents

64G8WhX.png

:wahaha::thumbsup:

How about instead of assuming people who play exclusively play English VNs can read Japanese, you explain what the line is supposed to say and where the error is?

In any case, I stand by my assessment. A couple throwaway lines don't result in the entire VN being difficult to understand. 

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5 minutes ago, tera said:

A couple throwaway lines don't result in the entire VN being difficult to understand. 

The problem being raised has never been that the game is difficult to understand. It is simply that the lines and the meaning does not match the original Japanese, an argument that only those who know Japanese can really tell.
They can try to explain by providing their own translation but... That doesn't really change much, most of the time. It's still about believing that one translation is better than the other, because to an English-only speaker, faithfulness to the original is practically impossible to judge.

So then, the translation can in fact be very enjoyable for me to read. In fact, it is! But I cannot say that it is accurate to the original. When I start seeing a number of Japanese literate people pointing out translation mistakes, it makes sense to suspect that the translation does in fact have issues in the accuracy department.

Thankfully, I don't really care about the original. I quite like the translation as is.

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1 hour ago, Mr Poltroon said:

The problem being raised has never been that the game is difficult to understand. It is simply that the lines and the meaning does not match the original Japanese, an argument that only those who know Japanese can really tell.
They can try to explain by providing their own translation but... That doesn't really change much, most of the time. It's still about believing that one translation is better than the other, because to an English-only speaker, faithfulness to the original is practically impossible to judge.

So then, the translation can in fact be very enjoyable for me to read. In fact, it is! But I cannot say that it is accurate to the original. When I start seeing a number of Japanese literate people pointing out translation mistakes, it makes sense to suspect that the translation does in fact have issues in the accuracy department.

Thankfully, I don't really care about the original. I quite like the translation as is.

How does the americanized official vn's do in that respect though? 

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11 minutes ago, Stormwolf said:

How does the americanized official vn's do in that respect though? 

That will also depend on your definition of accuracy.

If you have a funny joke about kanji you can either keep it, explaining the kanji, or you can make up new wordplay.
If you have a reference to a (non-international) Japanese model you can either keep it, or replace it with a more familiar Western name.
Which methods you prefer are up to you, but I think you'll fine most translators with some experience prefer the latter options. As do I, because I tend to laugh more at a joke in English than at understanding what the joke in Japanese was meant to be.
One is concerned with the words and meanings of the original (the former), even when they don't exist or have different connotations in English-speaking countries, whilst the other is more concerned with the intent (the latter).

Incidentally, in the interest of the topic, I do think this particular fan translation is fairly liberal. Even with my poor grasp of Japanese I could notice a number of adapted references, especially the lines in which they replaces a honorific conversation with something else. Example:

Spoiler

qjnQona.png

This line in particular might not be adapted. I can't tell since it wasn't voiced.
I've definitely heard others that were localised, though.

 

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2 minutes ago, Mr Poltroon said:

That will also depend on your definition of accuracy.

If you have a funny joke about kanji you can either keep it, explaining the kanji, or you can make up new wordplay.
If you have a reference to a (non-international) Japanese model you can either keep it, or replace it with a more familiar Western name.
Which methods you prefer are up to you, but I think you'll fine most translators with some experience prefer the latter options. As do I, because I tend to laugh more at a joke in English than at understanding what the joke in Japanese was meant to be.
One is concerned with the words and meanings of the original (the former), whilst the other is more concerned with the intent (the latter).

Incidentally, in the interest of the topic, I do think this particular fan translation is fairly liberal. Even with my poor grasp of Japanese I could notice a number of adapted references, especially the lines in which they replaces a honorific conversation with something else. Example:

  Reveal hidden contents

qjnQona.png

This line in particular might not be adapted. I can't tell since it wasn't voiced.
I've definitely heard others that were localised, though.

 

That will depend on your definition of accuracy.. This is the key to all this and i'm amazed how people bother arguing. We all view it differently and absolutely no forced attempt at persuasion or ridicule will make anyone change their minds. Personally official Americanized vn's belong in the trash and after watching so much anime with literal translations, that is what i greatly prefer. But that is my opinion and it will differ for almost everyone. 

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On 3/30/2019 at 2:22 PM, kokoro said:

This image has a mixture of straight-up errors and just poor TL choices that aren't technically wrong but are pretty bad in context. I tried to stick to posting lines that the majority of people would think "That's bad" upon seeing. There were a decent number of lines that I considered bad, but not did not include because I could see some people arguing that it was just a liberal translation or something. So really, this image is me being fairly generous.

The smoking gun of this image is that this is all in the first 20 minutes of the game. Specifically, I watched two Japanese "lets play" Daitoshokan videos, each 10 minutes long on autoplay. Reading normally, it would take maybe five minutes to get to this point. There's this many errors that early into the game, and it hasn't even started yet. This is the tip of the shit iceberg. Five minutes into a like 30 hours long game. There's 29 errors compiled in this image, 1800 minutes of game divided by 5 is 360 chunks this long, this number of errors times 360 is 10,440 errors. At this rate, the game will have 10,440 errors in total. Nearly every other line has some issue, and every third or so has a straight up TL error. If we're being generous and fiddle with the math such that it takes 10 minutes to get to this point, we can lower it down to about 5,000 errors. But like I said, that's being generous. Ouch. 

Unfortunately, this is what happens when someone with a weak grasp of Japanese translates something. They have to guess a lot, and they rarely fully understand the point of a conversation, so they make mistakes. Constantly. Daitoshokan is that in a nutshell.

 

I'm impressed you would go this far to point out errors. I can't imagine that image was easy to put together.

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Just now, Quof said:

I'm impressed you would go this far to point out errors. I can't imagine that image was easy to put together.

I forgot to credit you, though I don't think anyone would think I'd put so much time and effort to come up with that chart, queef.

 

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The way I’ve always thought about localization and literalism vs liberalism is: in the end, a VN is an experience. The audience reads the VN and reacts to the words, visuals, and audio within. And so, the point of translation is to replicate that experience as best as possible to whatever new audience is targeted.

At the most basic level, the audience comprehends the information contained in the script, processing that, say, Shujin is sitting at a table or Akane is walking with her friends. Someone who can read English but can’t read Japanese, well, can’t read Japanese, so the experience of understanding that Akane is walking with her friends is replicated by translating the text from Japanese to English.

To move this up a level (or maybe a couple, idk) gets into culture differences. If a line references something about Japanese culture, the Japanese audience will get it because they’re part of the culture, but the English audience won’t get it because they’re not, and so there’s a difference in experiences. These references can range from puns (after all, language is part of culture) to pop culture to common sayings. Localization is the solution to this, as by changing a reference, the new audience will (hopefully) understand the intent of the line, and get the same experience as the Japanese audience.

Of course, this can certainly be taken too far (eat your hamburgers, Apollo), so it’s important to identify what actually changes the experience significantly, but I find localization to be an important part of translation.

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Even by VN standards there is way too much unnecessary talking in this VN, which is weird because at first seemed so natural(the flows of conversations) but there is only so much talking(without anything happening) one can handle before getting annoyed. Extremely long winded, less could have been more .

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11 minutes ago, Novel21 said:

Beacuse of the text and I'm not sure it have gone throught quality translation

Ah, then let me elaborate.

If Daitoshokan has any big issues with the translation, they are most definitely not with the editing. That is to say, the English reads fine and I actually rather like a lot of it.
It is still possible that the translation from Japanese to English isn't good, but I wouldn't be able to tell or comment on that.

Edited by Mr Poltroon

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X3hQVXg.png

Yes, 'a displeased expression' being translated as 'a strange expression' is something only a true master of translation could avoid. When 'strange' isn't even in the edict definition list for 不機嫌 (probably the tl mistead it as 不思議 instead)

To be fair though, I can imagine myself doing the same at some point were I to fall asleep at the wheel, I just wouldn't do so over 800 times hopefully.

Which is not to say the inaccurate translation might not be fun to read, of course w

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Depending on the context then "strange" will be easy to understand, although perhaps not the correct word to use. But does it ruin the entire experience? I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Likely you've forgotten it in 5+ lines, if even that.

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9 minutes ago, Stormwolf said:

Depending on the context then "strange" will be easy to understand, although perhaps not the correct word to use. But does it ruin the entire experience? I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Likely you've forgotten it in 5+ lines, if even that.

One mistake might not change much but 800 can

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1 hour ago, Novel21 said:

Beacuse of the text and I'm not sure it have gone throught quality translation

As for Daitoshokan here, it would be the best if you just find out by yourself whether the translation is good or not. And if you find that it' okay, then feel free to continue on it and hopefully you'll have fun on that (Also I hope that you'll get a good experience for reading Daitoshokan there).

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6 hours ago, Zakamutt said:

X3hQVXg.png

Yes, 'a displeased expression' being translated as 'a strange expression' is something only a true master of translation could avoid. When 'strange' isn't even in the edict definition list for 不機嫌 (probably the tl mistead it as 不思議 instead)

To be fair though, I can imagine myself doing the same at some point were I to fall asleep at the wheel, I just wouldn't do so over 800 times hopefully.

Which is not to say the inaccurate translation might not be fun to read, of course w

Doesn't really change the meaning of the sentence. 

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