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littleshogun

Nekonyan's Two December Announcements

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Just now, Okarin said:

I don't really think Nekonyan are our lords and saviours though. They need to show some real beef before that.

I- Hm.
My grasp of English may be failing, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. What exactly would they need to do for you to trust them as a company?

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Just now, Mr Poltroon said:

I- Hm.
My grasp of English may be failing, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. What exactly would they need to do for you to trust them as a company?

I only wanted to point out their efforts so far are kinda underwhelming. This announcement botch was just the icing on the fail. Jeez, is it so hard to know what on Earth they are working on?

About what I want to see, you know, like keeping their promises? If they can at all, in the first place.

I guess they really did arrive on the scene like some kind of "revolutionary" company, but they're coming apart at the seams soon enough.

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39 minutes ago, Nandemonai said:

The problem is this is what they actually said:

 

But before we talk about individual titles, I would say it's important to first off all talk about ourselves -- NekoNyan. You see, all of us had been pretty dissatisfied with how things were going in regards to the Western VN/eroge market. It just felt like many -- not all -- of the only few localizers don't really have a passion for what they're doing, nor do they seem to actually understand much about it.

We talked to many of the Japanese devs, and the truth is (unsurprisingly), they had been getting the same impression. That whole KS practice that just came to be the default for most companies is anything but liked over in Japan. One company we talked to said it'd feel like those localizers are trying to span a safety net, which would, in turn, give off the impression that they don't really believe in their title(s), nor care.

..

All right, let me now quickly share with you guys how we're planning to go about things in general, and the direction we want to take this endeavor.

...

- No crowdfunding. The first few releases have already been fully funded using our own, private money, so no worries there. We're likely going to offer pre-orders, though, and throw in some extras there for those who really want to support us ahead of release. Don't worry though, pre-order bonuses will also be included in all purchases up to a few weeks after release.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with what they said. You think MoeNovel translates because they feel passionate? They aren't wrong and never said anything about PHYSICAL RELEASES at all. Literally, their FAQ page for every project says "Physicals might happen if there is considerable interest" (Or at least that's I how interpret it).

Edited by Rancelover935

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Just now, Okarin said:

I only wanted to point out their efforts so far are kinda underwhelming. This announcement botch was just the icing on the fail. Jeez, is it so hard to know what on Earth they are working on?

About what I want to see, you know, like keeping their promises? If they can at all, in the first place.

I guess they really did arrive on the scene like some kind of "revolutionary" company, but they're coming apart at the seams soon enough.

Oh boy...

 

I never said they were our lords and saviors. "Announcement botch". These are humans mate. Humans are not robots as such should not expected to hit every deadline on the nail. They said their "Promo materials weren't ready". Don't think that any Japanese Developer (Or even Neko themselves) wants incomplete advertisement on a western release. Underwhelming? That's your opinion and you can keep it. At least they are releasing and translating things in a timely manner and haven't shoved any VNs in an icebox.

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36 minutes ago, Mr Poltroon said:

Hm. But by their own assessment, they don't need to crowdfund. In time, they will supposedly have the funds to fund these physical copies without crowdfunding. This is more a case of "We've invested more into new releases, but this means physical copies will be delayed. Physical copies are not only more expensive to produce, there are less purchasers for these, and they often have no profitable return. The only way we can deliver these now is through crowdfunding. We ask the community, do you want these now, even if it means resorting to crowdfunding?" (my interpretation of the announcement).
Also, I think the context is somewhat different. They were firmly against constantly crowdfunding their releases. They still are. What was annoying and betrayed a lack of confidence in a company's ability was crowdfunding as default funding method for releases. But they are not saying they will crowdfund all (or any) of their releases; they are only considering crowdfunding physical copies, a far more expensive investment with less return.

Funny how they're able to afford these exceptions for themselves now that they want to use crowdfunding but never gave anyone else this benefit. No localization companies are relying on crowdfunding as a default funding method. The two big users (SP and Frontwing) have been using crowdfunding primarily for physical goods recently. Nekonyan using crowdfunding at this time suggests that the Japanese developers they spoke of don't even have a correct impression of the western localization industry. No one is using crowdfunding out of lack of confidence or because they don't care; it's the reality of this volatile market. Nekonyan wanted to position themselves as "above it all" and capable of operating more appropriately and in line with Japanese devs' preferences. It was a PR move to shape the narrative and make themselves more favorable with fans. 

Quote

Indeed. Which is why they're asking their community instead of just going ahead and doing it because it's more economically viable.

Fans gave SP and Frontwing the same go-ahead by backing their projects every single time even with their issues. Nekonyan is asking for fans' approval so they don't come across as hypocrites. I don't even have a problem with crowdfunding, but I do agree that Nekonyan deserves flak for trying to capitalize on people's dislike for Kickstarter and certain companies by finger-wagging and making it seem like crowdfunding is off the table for any reasonable company because the Japanese side has wised up on the issue. Sol Press proved that this isn't the case; the success of Newton's KS apparently opened up many devs' doors to them and they managed to license the highly sought-after Irotoridori no Sekai even though they need to crowdfund for it (and the sequels are even behind stretch goals). Crowdfunding absolutely still has a place in this industry and Nekonyan shouldn't have implied otherwise. This market is still full of risks and that doesn't go away by pretending crowdfunding's only done because of improper business practices.

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Just now, Okarin said:

Bashing slice of life doesn't seem really wise, while white-knighting a company like Nekonyan who barters in that kind of games... anyway, out of decency doing it isn't wise in any case.

I said a "Shitty slice of life protag". That means like the dumbass from Hatsukoi. Not that Slice of life is shitty. How did you get that interpretation?

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7 minutes ago, RikiSanic said:

Funny how they're able to afford these exceptions for themselves now that they want to use crowdfunding but never gave anyone else this benefit.

I believe a benefit might have been given... for the first three or four times. But indeed, they soured up to constant kickstarters and the often poor results, and it was under these conditions that they tried their hand at the business. Disliking the practice of kickstarting one or two titles of every three releases. Unless you claim that kickstarters didn't happen that often. I am acting on the assumption that they did, but cannot be bothered to verify this information. I have no grounds if there were only like 3 or 4 VN localisations total, but I am confident that there were far more, with alarming frequency.

13 minutes ago, RikiSanic said:

No localization companies are relying on crowdfunding as a default funding method. The two big users (SP and Frontwing) have been using crowdfunding primarily for physical goods recently.

Yes. After NekoNyan was founded. It seems they, too, like the idea of crowdfunding physicals. Something that wasn't common when they started the company. Instead, many releases required kickstarter to be brought over at all.

14 minutes ago, RikiSanic said:

Nekonyan using crowdfunding at this time suggests that the Japanese developers they spoke of don't even have a correct impression of the western localization industry. No one is using crowdfunding out of lack of confidence or because they don't care; it's the reality of this volatile market. Nekonyan wanted to position themselves as "above it all" and capable of operating more appropriately and in line with Japanese devs' preferences. It was a PR move to shape the narrative and make themselves more favorable with fans.

I agree with a lot of this. Disliking kickstarters as a means to bring VNs over is one thing, but there was no need to be particularly mean-spirited towards other localisers that were relying on them often.
This does not mean that the Japanese Developers did not have the perception they did, even if it might have been an incorrect perception.
And yes. Taking this stance was one meant to attract certain like-minded fans. As any other localiser, each has their quirks stances, that attract particular fans.

18 minutes ago, RikiSanic said:

Fans gave SP and Frontwing the same go-ahead by backing their projects every single time even with their issues.

Certainly. And I am similarly certain that the fans that backed these projects were not the ones that flocked to NekoNyan's commitment to avoiding crowdfunding.

19 minutes ago, RikiSanic said:

Nekonyan is asking for fans' approval so they don't come across as hypocrites. I don't even have a problem with crowdfunding, but I do agree that Nekonyan deserves flak for trying to capitalize on people's dislike for Kickstarter and certain companies by finger-wagging and making it seem like crowdfunding is off the table for any reasonable company because the Japanese side has wised up on the issue. Sol Press proved that this isn't the case; the success of Newton's KS apparently opened up many devs' doors to them and they managed to license the highly sought-after Irotoridori no Sekai even though they need to crowdfund for it (and the sequels are even behind stretch goals). Crowdfunding absolutely still has a place in this industry and Nekonyan shouldn't have implied otherwise. This market is still full of risks and that doesn't go away by pretending crowdfunding's only done because of improper business practices.

And following from my previous statement, that is why they are asking their community for their input. Something they often do, about most things, through their forums.
In summary, you hold a dislike of NekoNyan for establishing an initial core fanbase by taking jabs at other localisers (mainly Sekai Project, to be frank), and then considering using the same methods, with no regard to the circumstances surrounding any of these events. Or perhaps you simply hold a dislike because you do not agree with their core stance that crowdfunding is an unreliable method that does not produce good results?

Understandable, but I cannot say I agree. I have nothing against crowdfunding, but I have seen a lot of poor products come out of it.
Perhaps NekoNyan's perception has changed to that the 'evil' was not the crowdfunding itself, but the way it was utilised or who utilised it.

 

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Just now, Okarin said:

Kiri is like a flip-flop, he can say really savvy things or really trollish things, unfortunately for you he's kinda spot on on this matter.

It really did look like you were fervently defending Nekonyan, especially when you took the effort to respond to every single thing.

It's clear there are two sides to this. The side that believes Neko is "falling apart at the seam" and are not keeping their promises and the side that can see why they question the community before bending their promises. It is one those things we will never agree upon and as such, let's just agree to disagree.

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I don't know if this is needed but just to clarify. I don't hate Nekonyan. I don't mind what they do. I don't mind if they use Kickstarter. I might have a rough past with some of the members of Nekonyan but I don't hate those people or wish them bad. I just hope that the people of the VN community would get eyes and brains and notice what these companies are doing, what are they promising and when. Many people hate certain companies for doing something but will buy any bullshit their favorite company feeds them. Even one thread started on Fuwanovel can absolutely destroy a reputation some localized work has for false reasons. This is not how it should be.

Edited by Kiriririri

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Just now, Rancelover935 said:

It's clear there are two sides to this. The side that believes Neko is "falling apart at the seam" and are not keeping their promises and the side that can see why they question the community before bending their promises. It is one those things we will never agree upon and as such, let's just agree to disagree.

Factionism, now? Just great.

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1 minute ago, Okarin said:

Factionism, now? Just great.

Like the mod literally just said, we aren't talking about me anymore so either pm me and complain there or move on and live another 70 years until all of our eventual demises. After of course reading all the translated VNs in those 70 years.

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2 hours ago, Rancelover935 said:

haven't shoved any VNs in an icebox.

Actually, this isn't true either. Take a look at their initial lineup announcement at https://nekonyansoft.com/blog/2018-announcements and see if you can spot the odd one out which has no announced progress.

TBH, all the people I know at the independent VN loc companies, from the bottom to the top, are simultaneously:

  • passionate about the medium
  • doing the best they can for the games and for the fans
  • constantly running into difficulties, sometimes of their own making, but just as often from external sources
  • occasionally fucking up, as is normal for people
  • constantly scrambling to deal with said fuckups, because they don't have the benefit of a lot of financial resources to solve the problems they create

NekoNyan is going to have their share of fuckups, just like Sol Press is. Just like Sekai Project has since before them. Just like MangaGamer before them. And just like JAST before all the rest. If you're putting any of these companies on a pedestal, you're in for disappointment. But also, if you've somehow deluded yourself into believing any of them is in this industry just for the sweet sweet cash, rather than out of love for the content, you're bonkers.

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Yeah.  I'm giving them flak for the flip-flop, because... they deserve it.  Doesn't mean I think they suck.  Just means they did something that I'm giving them flak over.

And I'm with Fred: nobody is in this industry for the "sweet sweet cash".  The cash is paltry and mostly sour.  Most of the companies that ever tried to enter this industry either died, or gave up.  The ones that are still around are lucky to sell a few thousand units of each game they release, with a very small handful of lucky exceptions.  Sekai Project might not even still exist if it weren't for NekoPara.

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7 hours ago, Kiriririri said:

Even one thread started on Fuwanovel can absolutely destroy a reputation some localized work has for false reasons.

Like this one thread tries to?

I'm not really sure why they have suddenly become the target number one after a minor misstep which is in no small part a result of valve's crazy and unexpected decisions. I'll look at you when you are at risk of losing most of your sales because of a random number generator. And instead of support they get aggresive trolling (?) for... Postponing the announcements for a bit? Delaying a game for a month? Asking their customers on their opinion about kickstarting physical releases since earlier they criticized the over-reliance on KS of the several companies? Am I reading this right? Yeah, they are much worse than Sekai, JAST, MG etc. That much is clear.

As for announcements, I have a weird feeling one of them is Riddle Joker. Which would disappoint me, though it would be fun if they release their second Yuzusoft game before Sekai musters even one of the three they announced god knows when already.

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On 12/15/2018 at 5:48 PM, Fred the Barber said:

But also, if you've somehow deluded yourself into believing any of them is in this industry just for the sweet sweet cash, rather than out of love for the content, you're bonkers.

So we just gonna act like MoeNovel or SakuraGames doesn't do this just for the money? What logical sane person would rip apart a VN that has sex and other things integral to routes that ruin the game if missing or in SG's case literally translate horribly and call it passionate? By passion I mean actual interaction with the people that make up the consumers of your projects. I've seen a few persons from each company in discussions at some point besides the ones I've mentioned before. (Maybe in a previous post I said something about Sol Press, I wasn't meaning it in a snide manner. Honestly, Newton no Ringo was one of the VN's of the year for me.) 

Yeah, Melty Moment( Early or mid 2019 initial release date) has no announced progress but hasn't been announced as "we'll get to it when we want"(Also I believe Hooksoft is new to western releases so there's that)[Actually there are no translated Hooksoft games so it's going to be the first TL'ed title from them]. Honestly, they are probably trying to make sure their release schedule for 2019 stays on track and working on those first, which is entirely understandable. I never put them on a pedestal, just did not understand the flak they were getting for actually reaching out to the community about physical releases, which prompted some people to say they are going back on promises and are terrible at business because they didn't have the promotional material ready for an announcement. 

 

On 12/15/2018 at 11:15 PM, novurdim said:

Like this one thread tries to?

I'm not really sure why they have suddenly become the target number one after a minor misstep which is in no small part a result of valve's crazy and unexpected decisions. I'll look at you when you are at risk of losing most of your sales because of a random number generator. And instead of support they get aggresive trolling (?) for... Postponing the announcements for a bit? Delaying a game for a month? Asking their customers on their opinion about kickstarting physical releases since earlier they criticized the over-reliance on KS of the several companies? Am I reading this right? Yeah, they are much worse than Sekai, JAST, MG etc. That much is clear.

As for announcements, I have a weird feeling one of them is Riddle Joker. Which would disappoint me, though it would be fun if they release their second Yuzusoft game before Sekai musters even one of the three they announced god knows when already.

It took a me a good minute to realize that you weren't shitting on Neko but actually the argument against Neko. Everything you said basically describes how I feel looking at people giving flak for choosing to ask us about a major decision, or delaying a game for a month when other companies have games delayed forever (Rest in peace Dracu-Riot). Postponing anything these days make a good chunk of people look at the ones who postponed as if they were demons or something. I'm pretty accustomed to waiting, I mean, look at my name. It'll be a long time before we see the whole series TL'ed if at all.(Whole meaning every Rance title out there)

Edited by Rancelover935

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Regardless what's been promised or what neko has said about other companies, i don't find it worthy bringing pitchforks over. Sure, it does make them seem a bit despicable and hypocritical, but as long as they work hard and deliver what they promise, that's all i can ask for. They can fight out these company x company fights amongst each other, i can't say i care. I don't even care if they start using Kickstarter or what have you, as long as we get what we pay for. But as long as people say that spending money on kickstarters is an investment and not a purchase so you're not entitled to anything, i won't touch it. Ever.

Edited by Stormwolf

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3 hours ago, Rancelover935 said:

So we just gonna act like MoeNovel or SakuraGames doesn't do this just for the money?

I excluded MoeNovel because they're not an independent VN loc company—they're a shell company for WillPlus. They're just too far removed from the English-speaking audience to know or care what the audience wants.

And yeah, SakuraGame is an anomaly—a genuine bad actor who I expect (or man, at least I hope) will get weeded out before too long.

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14 hours ago, novurdim said:

I'm not really sure why they have suddenly become the target number one after a minor misstep which is in no small part a result of valve's crazy and unexpected decisions.

For the record, the flak they're getting from me (as I can't speak for anyone else) is a) for being hypocrites, and b) for not apologizing to the Kickstarter-using companies they hypocritically insulted earlier.

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As long as Sekai, Frontwing, and Mangagamer didn't sue Nekonyan for the insult, I think they didn't need to apologize to the three companies, or at least that's what I guess. That said, I understand though that if Nekonyan need to really use crowdfund then they should take a responsibility to their earlier word.

Also while I think that we should be more positive in regard of Nekonyan, I didn't like when people did keep pushing his own opinion in regard of the positivity even if another party didn't accept it because to me it's quite rude even with the intend that the people have, and I can speak about this from my experience in another community when even the mod did say 'I'm okay with breaking the rule as long as I can see some positive opinion' or something of that effect. Or to put it nicely okay we can still keep telling positive opinion in regard of Nekonyan, but I would say that it would be the best to retreat when other people didn't convinced with that. Sorry for going a bit personal here, because the earlier discussion remind me of that.

As for Nekonyan, while granted that recently they have down in regard of HGB delay that could be attributed to sudden disappearence of the translator, I still think that they did better compared to Sol Press though seeing that they managed to have two releases on time (Fureraba and Sanoba) in less a year - I talk about full VN by the way. To be fair, Sol Press probably did have more obstacle in regard of localized the VNs though. As for Pulltop and Sakura Games, I say that as long as they got some money, then they can keep going even if the staffs were not passionate to translate the VNs.

Edited by littleshogun

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7 hours ago, Nandemonai said:

For the record, the flak they're getting from me (as I can't speak for anyone else) is a) for being hypocrites, and b) for not apologizing to the Kickstarter-using companies they hypocritically insulted earlier.

Man, repeating things on threads is fun. They are asking the community before coming to a decision mate. They haven't embraced KS as the be all end all for their translations. Merely questioning on whether or not people care to have a physical copy so much so that they would need to crowdfund to put up the money required to manufacture the copies. They haven't said anywhere that KS was ever their end goal and treating it that way is a little much and unfair to them. Beyond that, they haven't done anything to be hypocritical besides considering crowdfunding as an option for the persons who want the physical copies of games. All their TL projects have been funded by themselves [thus far] and no money has come from our pockets beforehand. The flak you're giving them is honestly just unfair if you think them considering their options is hypocritical. They say on every FAQ on their own site that physicals are talked about with the Japanese Devs. KS is just one solution to pay for the cost of the materials to manufacture.

 

2 hours ago, littleshogun said:

Also while I think that we should be more positive in regard of Nekonyan, I didn't like when people did keep pushing his own opinion in regard of the positivity even if another party didn't accept it because to me it's quite rude even with the intend that the people have, and I can speak about this from my experience in another community when even the mod did say 'I'm okay with breaking the rule as long as I can see some positive opinion' or something of that effect.

What was discussed here was more as a "Why attack a company attempting to receive feedback on a important financial decision, as well as try to call them out for considering viable options to appease the community?". Not really as much as a "Be more nice to Neko, or else" as it was a "Why is there a hate bandwagon for a good localisation company that doesn't delay VNs forever(Once again, RIP Dracu-Riot) and actually interacts with their target audience?"(Yes, I understand, they shit on companies using KS, now that they are understanding how expensive some costs can be [more in regards to price of materials for physical releases], they are considering it as a solution if the community wants it that badly . )

Edited by Rancelover935

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