Why do people stop after getting a c&d notice?

[Godskrieg]

This is something that I do not deign a smart business mind.

While I agree that companies that don't want their shit translated, should not have their shit translated. It's all just a really horrible business plan. Now let's be honest here for about 2 minutes and then we can all go back to living in our fantasy world filled with those beautiful cherry blossoms. Most games that have fan-translations are pirated a LOT more then they are bought. Fuwa used to be a site specifically for that (I am happy with the change), but there's still a giant hole in my head that needs filling. If I made a visual novel for example, and somebody decided to fan-translate it, I would be hyped. Why? For a couple of reasons:

1. It means that there might be a potential market for me in the US. 

2. It means that I sell more copies of my game, why? Because even if most people pirate it, a percentage still buys my game, which means I get money straight into my pocket, or in this case, the companies pocket. There are some games we just KNOW won't be in the west ever, or at least any time soon. Why is selling a few more copies bad when I do literally NONE of the work? I just don't understand this.

3. It brings interest to my company in general, so yeah, they translated one or two games, but I have a lot more, a lot more that I could potentially release in the west for butt-tons of money (Ahem, Eushully, ahem.).

So all in all I disagree with the companies that send C&D's, but I still think we should respect the choice they made, after all its THEIR game. 

[Scorp]

All is pretty simple.

1. If company is really serious about c&d - you can really get all these problems (as indeed each provider have logs, what and who downloaded, website owner is logged, etc). Anyway, copyright infringement cannot be translation alone - so it is safe just to put text translations on your site and some tools which would inject them into ISO on a separate server made by by a someone else.

2. All these C&D is actually very easy to avoid - if you're not an attention whore, of course  Just do not announce anything before it is done - like Aroduc does. And that's it - work is done and widespread, no point in C&D, as anyway everyone already have it.. Alas it is not an option for a giant number of fan translators, who do not have enough motivation to finish anything.

[Nosebleed]

26 minutes ago, Scorp said:

All these C&D is actually very easy to avoid - if you're not an attention whore, of course  Just do not announce anything before it is done - like Aroduc does. And that's it - work is done and widespread, no point in C&D, as anyway everyone already have it..

That's... not how it works. In fact, you'll only be fine if you don't release anything. The moment you release something is when you're susceptible to be hit by a lawsuit. That's why people who get hit by C&D's just quit while they're ahead, otherwise they'll deal with worse consequences (i.e an actual lawsuit). Getting hit by a C&D doesn't typically have any legal repercussions per se, it's just a "warning". You can finish your entire project without ever receiving one, but as soon as you release stuff, that's when you put yourself at risk.

Of course if it's for a game that hasn't been licensed it usually will be fine because Japanese companies don't normally care, but if it's for a game that's been localized, the localizing company has all the right to sue you because they are the ones who own the right to distribute the game in English, and the moment you release any patch, you're stepping on a landmine.

Yes, you're free to release the patch and everyone will rejoice, but you're also opening yourself up to copyright lawsuits the moment you do so.

[Darbury]

32 minutes ago, Scorp said:

Anyway, copyright infringement cannot be translation alone.

Of course it can. "Right of translation" is explicitly granted to the creator of a work under Japanese copyright law. Depending where you live and what trade agreements your home country has entered into, you always expose yourself to some small amount of risk by releasing an unsanctioned translation of a recent work — even if it's just a text file.

You expose yourself to far more risk by releasing a translation after receiving a formal C&D.

[Chuee]

5 hours ago, Nosebleed said:

Most Japanese companies don't send c&d's for translation patches though, so you're arguing for a case that has never happened in the past as far as I can tell (feel free to prove me wrong though). The ones that do send c&d's are licensing companies, typically located in the US, so they have to comply with US copyright law, which is one of the most strict out there.

Japanese companies did used to send C&Ds way back a couple of years ago. Cartagra was hit with one, which led to it being licensed, and the same happened with Ef. Hoshizora no Memoria was too, but staircase ignored it and nothing came of it, because as he said, pursuing it costs money and it's not in their best interest to waste time and money over it. https://warosu.org/jp/thread/6371848#p6373388

If you look at the old VNTL statuses you can see a few other projects that were hit with them, like Concerto Note and Ikusa Megami Zero. The only notable C&D I remember being sent out by a licensing company was the whole deal with Da Capo III.

[Decay]

edit: ^^^^ Also Infini Brain/Lilith Soft. They have actually issued a rather large number of C&Ds in the past. Many for games they have no intention of ever licensing, despite them having some kind of partnership with MangaGamer.

I mean, even if it's not likely that the Japanese companies would react, it's still a risk. A risk people aren't willing to take. There's some chance that they will follow through with their threats, and who wants to gamble with that when the repercussions can be so severe? It's not worth it.

4 hours ago, Stormwolf said:

I love that throwback insult  

Keeping us in the know is good of course, but probably isn't the real reason for doing it all the time. Must be boring working on something, and no one knows about it. Must also be good to get all that praise when working. Yeah, it might just be attention whoring for some people/groups.

One of the biggest reasons to let people know that you're actively working on a TL is one that @Pabloc has become intimately familiar with early this month, when someone else spontaneously released an acceptable Rondo Duo translation. Pablo was something like 2/3rds complete with his, having only told a few people here and there, when a 100% patch came out from someone else. That's a decent amount of work to have to just drop. Rondo Duo is a fairly short game, think about what could happen when you're 2/3rds of the way through some 50,000 line monster? In the case of Rondo Duo, neither group made widespread public announcements, the slightly slower group ended up having their work made redundant. Announcing translations is like staking a claim, you're letting the world know that you're going to spend the next year or more translating something so no one else steps on your toes. And once the news is out there, people are going to bug you to no end over translation updates, so you may as well give them out, which also lets other translators know you're not dead yet.

[Scorp]

1 hour ago, Darbury said:

Of course it can. "Right of translation" is explicitly granted to the creator of a work under Japanese copyright law. Depending where you live and what trade agreements your home country has entered into, you always expose yourself to some small amount of risk by releasing an unsanctioned translation of a recent work — even if it's just a text file.

You expose yourself to far more risk by releasing a translation after receiving a formal C&D.

Tell this to @Conjueror

 

[Scorp]

1 hour ago, Nosebleed said:

That's... not how it works. In fact, you'll only be fine if you don't release anything. The moment you release something is when you're susceptible to be hit by a lawsuit.

Yes, you're free to release the patch and everyone will rejoice, but you're also opening yourself up to copyright lawsuits the moment you do so.

Lawsuit... You understand, how ridiculous this sound, no? Like "Mitsubishi lawsuit against 9th grader Noname". What they could get from him? Nothing. What they could do against releasing his patch? Nothing. But would be lot of money wasted by company for that international lawsuit. That's why such lawsuit never ever happen.

[Yuuko]

I think it's pretty natural for people to stop translating a game if the company asks them. I mean they are translating the game because they like it and the company behind it right?

[Nosebleed]

12 minutes ago, Scorp said:

Lawsuit... You understand, how ridiculous this sound, no? Like "Mitsubishi lawsuit against 9th grader Noname". What they could get from him? Nothing. What they could do against releasing his patch? Nothing. But would be lot of money wasted by company for that international lawsuit. That's why such lawsuit never ever happen.

Sure, it could not happen, but it could happen too. Your argument isn't any better than mine in that regard, I'm just saying there's more risk to proceed with a project after a c&d than if you quit while you're ahead. If you publish a patch, there's no going back, a company can sue you anytime because the patch is out there, that's the risk you have to bear in mind constantly.

It ultimately comes down to if you want to gamble on it or not, and most people choose not to.

[Darbury]

11 minutes ago, Scorp said:

That's why such lawsuit never ever happen.

It's true. That sort of stuff never happens.

Typically, this sort of rightsholder isn't looking for a financial windfall; they're hoping to make a public example of someone to discourage future infringement.

Is it likely to happen to you? Probably not. Is it possible? Absolutely.

[Scorp]

10 minutes ago, Nosebleed said:

Sure, it could not happen, but it could happen too. Your argument isn't any better than mine in that regard

My argument is based on fact, that no such lawsuits ever happened for fan translation.

3 minutes ago, Darbury said:

It's true. That sort of stuff never happens.

Typically, this sort of rightsholder isn't looking for a financial windfall; they're hoping to make a public example of someone to discourage future infringement.

Is it likely to happen to you? Probably not. Is it possible? Absolutely.

 You really do not see the difference between "making money for years using copyrighted IP" and fan translation? Really?

[Decay]

3 minutes ago, Scorp said:

My argument is based on fact, that no such lawsuits ever happened for fan translation.

Except you're wrong.

They aren't in it for the money, they're in it to "protect their brand," which is incidentally a corporate lawyer's favorite activity.

[Scorp]

1 minute ago, Decay said:

Except you're wrong.

They aren't in it for the money, they're in it to "protect their brand," which is incidentally a corporate lawyer's favorite activity.

Decay, read my previous reply. This is completely different story. Here money were involved and that guy pissed off Pokemon company by advertising HIS party where gain money by using THEIR IP. That's like I will advertise my product using your face. Nothing to do with translation.

[Nosebleed]

5 minutes ago, Scorp said:

My argument is based on fact, that no such lawsuits ever happened for fan translation.

*yet. 

Assuming there's 0 risk based solely on lack of precedent is pretty ignorant, to say the least. 
The law is clear on this matter, so you can't just assume nothing will ever happen to you.

I hope it doesn't happen to anyone, but I sure as hell am not going to be the guinea pig to test the system, and I bet other people who get c&d's think similarly.
It's easy to say "nothing will happen" when you're not the one receiving a legal notice from an entity clearly above you.

[Decay]

If they do it for that, they'll do it for anything they perceive as a threat to their brand. Fan translations included. The point is, the risk is there.

[Scorp]

42 minutes ago, Decay said:

If they do it for that, they'll do it for anything they perceive as a threat to their brand. Fan translations included. The point is, the risk is there.

First case - guy openly hold a party in his cafe, got a copyright infringement. Everyone knows his name, address, etc.

Second case - someone in internet, lets name him Gully Foyle for example, release a full patch, using torrent magnet link (so without server upload). He just posted link on several servers and that's it.

See the difference?

By you, would company file an international lawsuit, which would have to involve police, which in the end would require international police, when they will figure out his country (which possible can be like anything, if he used anonymous proxy), so spending a lot just to find the guy. Okay, they found him (not clear how, lets say he had his real name in the profile everywhere, so after spending a good amount of time they tracked him down), And what we have... He is a minor. Just great. Or homeless student. Or whatever. He will never be able to pay them even the money they wasted to find him, and moreover - even if he now remove his link or write "I am so sorry" it would be useless, as all is went live.

Efforts were big and result is less than zero - huge amount of money was lost on this.. "threat to their brand".

That's why this never happened and will never happen. Unless you have your personal data everywhere along with contact email, so they could easily find you and you was a big pain in the ass to infuriate them.

So yes, in parallel world this is really possible to get a lawsuit from the company for fan translation. But in our business-oriented reality if you live in something like Equador or Kazakhstan or India - I doubt anyone would even try to suit you  And even in USA this is too complicated, because of money required to find and sue anyone.

[Darbury]

1 hour ago, Scorp said:

That's why such lawsuit never ever happen.

I’m not sure if you realize you’re doing it, but you keep moving the goalposts of your own argument.

First you said translation w/o a distributable binary is safe because it isn’t copyright infringement. We showed you that it is.

Then you said a big Japanese company would never sue a small fry an ocean away over copyright issues. (You used Mitsubishi in your example, which as a non-VN company, opens the door somewhat wider.) We showed you they have, moreover in a case where the legal costs far outweighed the damages they collected.

Then you said it’s a non-issue anyway because every translation team should be operating in complete Mr. Robot stealth mode, leaving no digital trail. And even if they don’t, it’s okay, because TL teams don't have enough money to be worth suing, which the previous Pokemon example would tend to contradict. 

Can we just pick one patch of logical ground and stick to it for a while?  

P.S. -  Most copyright cases are civil rather than criminal. They don't involve the police — just lots and lots of lawyers.

[Scorp]

38 minutes ago, Darbury said:

I’m not sure if you realize you’re doing it, but you keep moving the goalposts of your own argument.

First you said translation w/o a distributable binary is safe because it isn’t copyright infringement. We showed you that it is.

Then you said a big Japanese company would never sue a small fry an ocean away over copyright issues. (You used Mitsubishi in your example, which as a non-VN company, opens the door somewhat wider.) We showed you they have, moreover in a case where the legal costs far outweighed the damages they collected.

Then you said it’s a non-issue anyway because every translation team should be operating in complete Mr. Robot stealth mode, leaving no digital trail. And even if they don’t, it’s okay, because TL teams don't have enough money to be worth suing, which the previous Pokemon example would tend to contradict. 

Can we just pick one patch of logical ground and stick to it for a while?  

P.S. -  Most copyright cases are civil rather than criminal. They don't involve the police — just lots and lots of lawyers.

I spoke time ago with Conjueror about fan text translation and he told this is completely safe (I had an opposite opinion). I am not a lawyer, so I believed him. That's why I stopped on that matter.

About other cases - actually you never showed anything, apart that Pokemon guy, who is completely unrelated to fan translation case and C&Ds. If there any real lawsuits about fan translation - ranobe, novels, etc. - lets see them. But not piracy cases, when people gain profit from work, which does not belong to them - this is completely different case.

Actually even for Pokemon guy I bet we do not know the whole story. No law could tell that ridiculous case like "pay 4000$ in 45 days" - if you do not have money, you do not have them. All your accounts would be arrested, money retrieved from them and if this is not enough - you will pay the amount you can from your salary apart live expenses. This is common sense - as this is civil case they cannot sentence you, at least in any normal country. USA is different?

[Darbury]

28 minutes ago, Scorp said:

About other cases - actually you never showed anything, apart that Pokemon guy, who is completely unrelated to fan translation case and C&Ds.

Your original example was about Mitsubishi suing someone. Pokemon protecting their IP from fan use is an even closer analog. But to your point, no fan TL suit that I know of has gone to trial; most teams abide by the C&D.

28 minutes ago, Scorp said:

But not piracy cases, when people gain profit from work, which does not belong to them - this is completely different case.

That's a major misconception about copyright law (or at least the U.S. version of it). Damage isn't based on whether or not the infringer profits by their actions, but whether such actions diminish the potential lawful value of the original work to the copyright holder. If a VN company has the rights to produce a translated version of a work, an unlicensed translation reduces the potential sales and can be considered financial harm.

This is the same logic that the MPAA and RIAA has used to successfully sue filesharers (who don't profit from their actions) in court. And for the most part, courts have upheld the (outrageous) awarded damages.

28 minutes ago, Scorp said:

All your accounts would be arrested, money retrieved from them and if this is not enough - you will pay the amount you can from your salary apart live expenses. This is common sense - as this is civil case they cannot sentence you, at least in any normal country. USA is different?

Imagine the amount is much bigger — $220,000 in this case. That's enough to a ruin a life. She'll be paying that money back for decades, allowed to keep nothing save the barest living expenses. She won't even have the credit to buy a home or a car.

Is it worth the risk of defying a C&D? Not to me. I've got a spouse and kids, a job and a home. I'd like to keep them.  But other people's circumstances are different, of course, and I won't begrudge them their own choices.

[Scorp]

18 minutes ago, Darbury said:

That's a major misconception about copyright law (or at least the U.S. version of it). Damage isn't based on whether or not the infringer profits by their actions, but whether such actions diminish the potential lawful value of the original work to the copyright holder. If a VN company has the rights to produce a translated version of a work, an unlicensed translation reduces the potential sales and can be considered financial harm.

This is the same logic that the MPAA and RIAA has used to successfully sue filesharers (who don't profit from their actions) in court. And for the most part, courts have upheld the (outrageous) awarded damages.

Imagine the amount is much bigger — $220,000 in this case. That's enough to a ruin a life. She'll be paying that money back for decades, allowed to keep nothing save the barest living expenses. She won't even have the credit to buy a home or a car.

Is it worth the risk of defying a C&D? Not to me. I've got a spouse and kids, a job and a home. I'd like to keep them.  But other people's circumstances are different, of course, and I won't begrudge them their own choices.

Why you are telling about misconceptions? I just told that I want to see any real example for a lawsuit of an unauthorized TL and not piracy cases (as I saw a lot of anti-piracy lawsuits). I do not have any misconceptions, do not invent things on your own please.

Again, all these "risks" are mere speculations, No fan translation ever sued and I REALLY doubt ANYONE could sue for text-only translation - because translation is de-facto a derivative work and cannot be considered as copyright infringement (at least defence could go along these lines) and also there is a concept of fair use (I am not a law expert, especially USA law, so I am just suppose it could be used in this case). Why no one sues or even asks to remove text translations for game scripts from sites like Gamefaqs? Because there is no copyright infringement in them, probably?

[Darbury]

A strange game, this Calvinball. The only winning move is not to play.

 

How about a nice game of chess?

[Darklord Rooke]

1 hour ago, Scorp said:

I spoke time ago with Conjueror about fan text translation and he told this is completely safe (I had an opposite opinion). I am not a lawyer, so I believed him. That's why I stopped on that matter.

A derivative work is a new, original product that includes aspects of a preexisting, already copyrighted work. Also known as a "new version," derivative works can include musical arrangements, motion pictures, art reproductions, sound recordings or translations. They can also include dramatizations and fictionalizations, such as a movie based on a play. Only copyright owners have the exclusive right to produce derivative works based on their original, copyrighted works ... But if the original isn't yours and you don't get permission to use the original from its creator, then you're infringing that author's copyright.
https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/what-are-derivative-works-under-copyright-law

That's a definition which is everywhere. So yeah, it's definitely not safe if you want to follow the letter of the law. Now, it IS also true that most people won't choose to go through the hassle of a lawsuit, because you're only really eligible for damages and that's probably hard to prove and not as large as corporations like, but still it's a risk and I don't blame people for not wanting to take it. Because if some corporation or individual does just want to set an example, you'd feel pretty lousy if you're that example.

1 hour ago, Scorp said:

But not piracy cases, when people gain profit from work, which does not belong to them - this is completely different case.

Nope, it isn't. Darbury's definitely correct here.

46 minutes ago, Scorp said:

Again, all these "risks" are mere speculations, 

Nope, it isn't. Australia's already wary about copyright infringement since a court has already been willing to rule against infringers. And piracy and translation are both examples of copyright infringement. Saying 'they're completely different' doesn't change the fact that they're not.

48 minutes ago, Scorp said:

because translation is de-facto a derivative work and cannot be considered as copyright infringement 

Because translation is a derivative work, that's why it IS copyright infringement. The copyright holders hold ALL rights to derivative works.

[Suzu Fanatic]

1 hour ago, Scorp said:

Why you are telling about misconceptions? I just told that I want to see any real example for a lawsuit of an unauthorized TL and not piracy cases (as I saw a lot of anti-piracy lawsuits). I do not have any misconceptions, do not invent things on your own please.

Again, all these "risks" are mere speculations, No fan translation ever sued and I REALLY doubt ANYONE could sue for text-only translation - because translation is de-facto a derivative work and cannot be considered as copyright infringement (at least defence could go along these lines) and also there is a concept of fair use (I am not a law expert, especially USA law, so I am just suppose it could be used in this case). Why no one sues or even asks to remove text translations for game scripts from sites like Gamefaqs? Because there is no copyright infringement in them, probably?

Unless your volunteering to stand up against a C&D directed at you at some point in the future to validate your belief...

Spoiler

Debating is all good and dandy, but thus far, it's been ignorant suppositions and doubtful feelings. It lacks any stable ground to stand on.

There was a time I used to feel the same way about Fan TL "rights". But as it turns out, if the company that created the work notices, and wishes for the project to stop - the company has that right - they have sole proprietorship, end of story.

[Scorp]

57 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Nope, it isn't. Darbury's definitely correct here.

Nope, it isn't. Australia's already wary about copyright infringement since a court has already been willing to rule against infringers. And piracy and translation are both examples of copyright infringement. Saying 'they're completely different' doesn't change the fact that they're not.

Because translation is a derivative work, that's why it IS copyright infringement. The copyright holders hold ALL rights to derivative works.

Correct in what? I told that piracy is not fan translation and should be considered as separate case. So you insist, that piracy == fan translation? Let me see real examples of such cases, please.

I wonder, why USA laws still allow Google to do a machine translation of the copyrighted pages? Google infringe copyright, right? No one cares possible billion-dollar lawsuits?

Anyway, yes, lets stop then. Actually I do not care enough about legal status of TL, but it is good to know, that everyone who translate anything could easily ruin their life (like you imply here). You should write it in every TL topic on forums, as people should stop before it is too late...