Tay Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 (Image) Sorry, maef. Got sidetracked with the site migration. I bumped this up to #3 on the to-do list. hopefully I'll get to it in a few hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (Text) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 I know I'm annoying, and I know fuwa has a strange definition of time. But this time I think my questions could be informative and useful. And not only to me. I know, maef, and I'm sorry it still hasn't happened. It's high on my to-do list. Hoped to get it done earlier, but several new issues came up and life is pretty crazy for me atm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 No worries, I understand, it was a simple reminder ^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriginalRen Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 ...and the potential fuwa has to attract new players has highly decreased. I was just reading through a lot of the comments on this thread, and this sentence part stood out the most to me, so I felt like replying. I don't agree with this statement at all. Torrents do not make people enjoy something, their interest in the genre is what attracts them. People don't like Game of Thrones because they can illegally download it for free, they like it because it's a good series. The same is true about any hobby. While there are some people who will be upset because they can't get free games anymore, that doesn't mean this site has lost potential to attract new players (and/or members for that matter). It's a lot like Love Live. People say Fuwanovel is just another VNDB, when in reality there are tons of Love Live fan sites. Does this mean 1 is inferior to the other? No, it just means that user base is a different family. In this case, it simply means there is another way to spread the joy of what someone likes. Again, that doesn't mean we have lost potential as a site because of a change we have made, it simply means we are moving in a new direction and our goal is still what it always has been: make visual novels popular by sharing in the joy of what we love most. I have read introduction posts on this website time and time again. I have done many podcast episodes with members of the community and have gotten the chance to get to know them. I have seen my YouTube subscribers thank me for the videos I upload of play series for visual novels. Most of the time, do you know what those people tell me? They usually say that they stumbled onto Fuwanovel after typing in visual novels on Google. I've even had a member of Fuwanovel PM me saying he joined this site after seeing my videos on YouTube. In fact, he is an active member who posts a lot. Most of these people played Katawa Shoujo, and wanted to find more games that are like it. Do you know where their searches directed them? Here. It wasn't the torrents that brought them to this site, it was their interest in the genre. Look at this picture: Keep in mind, I am searching from a Japanese internet provider, meaning my Google gives me searches in that language and not in English. Look where Fuwanovel is located on that simple search. Again, we have done something good here, and no, I don't think losing the torrents means we are bound to lose potential interest. Call me crazy, but I think a Google search from Japan that brings up our site on the front page above others is a definite hint that we are clearly "making visual novels popular in the west." Sure, we aren't revolutionizing a movement here, but we are doing the right thing. arakura, suikashoujo, Darklord Rooke and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 I was just reading through a lot of the comments on this thread, and this sentence part stood out the most to me, so I felt like replying. I don't agree with this statement at all. Torrents do not make people enjoy something, their interest in the genre is what attracts them. People don't like Game of Thrones because they can illegally download it for free, they like it because it's a good series. The same is true about any hobby. While there are some people who will be upset because they can't get free games anymore, that doesn't mean this site has lost potential to attract new players (and/or members for that matter). It's a lot like Love Live. People say Fuwanovel is just another VNDB, when in reality there are tons of Love Live fan sites. Does this mean 1 is inferior to the other? No, it just means that user base is a different family. In this case, it simply means there is another way to spread the joy of what someone likes. Again, that doesn't mean we have lost potential as a site because of a change we have made, it simply means we are moving in a new direction and our goal is still what it always has been: make visual novels popular by sharing in the joy of what we love most. I didn't say torrents made people enjoy something nor did I say illegal pirating enhences enjoyement. I said they were an extremely efficient and convienient way to spread the genre where it was not available. Because, apart from Jast, Sekai and a couple other places, you cannot get English content outside of Japan or China. You can get Japanese games, but it's not easy to get at all, is mind blowingly expensive for what it is, and isn't patched. Sure it would be perfect if everyone did that, but that means you are relying on the community itself to make the genre grow popular, and not making the effort and a website to help it grow. Unfortunately this works only in theory. And yes, fuwanovel will suffer a big loss from removing the torrents.I know there was a survey mentionned at some point, but it took only in account the forum members. I don't have the numbers, but I'm fairly sure there is an substantial amount of the userbase who only used the front page. The forum members aren't the ones you are going to lose in the process, but those who don't come to the forums. And it's very important not to forget to fuwanovel is not initially a forum. Not everybody comes here.If fuwanovel wants to become a recluded, isolated community who wants to spread love and unicorns, then it's fine, but it won't be making VNs more popular.Making something popular is making it available, easily accessible, making new people discover it and giving them a proper basis into the genre.I'm not here to judge what the admins want to make out of their website, it's just that with the loss of torrents, newcomers have less reasons to initially come here and nothing has really replaced this first push into the community. I know the forum autocongratulates itself a lot on its friendly atmosphere, but will that really be enough ? You may call me pesimistic, but I don't think it is enough. What will - in theory - be available on fuwanovel : reviews, articles, VN list and summary, guides and whatnot.You attract current players, people who know the genre already and who can get Visual Novels by their own means. But how do you help spreading ? this is the part I do not get.I'll take your Game of thrones example. How are TV series successful ?Let me give you an example, and very good one. Most of my friends, hell, most of the people I know watch series. 95% of them have copies. 95%, and my friends aren't big pirates, it's just the way it happens, and some of them, lets say 20% buy part of the series if they liked it.I know that the way it works in France. That's how series get popular : via torrents, via illegal websites american series are an internationnal hit. And while this doesn't work for everything and can be the case in certain sectors more than others, Visual Novels in the West benefited A LOT from torrents. Simply because they weren't available or not for a reasonable price. Let's say this another way, I'm 99% positive that a majority of us wouldn't have bothered buying Visual Novels or even trying looking that hard for them had hey not been available on fuwanovel. So I'll keep defending my point, Fuwa does much less - as far as I know yet - to make VNs popular in the west. Which is why I want to know the objective the site has now. If it still is the same, tell me how, if it isn't, tell me what. It's not my website, I'm just curious about what it is going to become, and what kind of userbase it will shift to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklord Rooke Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Illegal copies of games are extremely easy to obtain on the web. Removing torrents from Fuwa will not impede people downloading visual novels. Furthermore Steam, and the introduction of adventure games which people tend to confuse with VNs (like Phoenix Wright, 999, and The Walking Dead) are doing far more to introduce people to VNs then Fuwanovel did by hosting a torrent facility for those who already heard of the medium. Which is why you’re seeing all those people sign up to Fuwa who’s first VN was Phoenix Wright or Zero Escape. When you have articles like “Do you like The Walking Dead, well here are some VNs you should play” then VNs are starting to take off. With this the gameplan starts to change, VNs are starting to hit the mainstream media, and we no longer need to shout about VNs to the world. I should point out Fuwa had minimal influence in providing this popularity boost to VNs, it would have happened with or without Fuwa. So, does this change in status provide an opportunity to change gameplans? You are forgetting that to make something popular there needs to be a product to begin with, which means encouraging support for developers both in Japan and in the West. And that it also involves providing information, support, and programs to SUSTAIN interest in a medium once someone has been introduced. Fuwa has never been about getting newcomers to the medium, people came to Fuwa AFTER they heard about VNs (they played Katawa Shoujo and went looking, or Phoenix Wright and went looking,) Fuwa focused on getting people to stay and providing a home. They did this through the release of torrents and a friendly community. That being said, finding games on the web is pretty simple so Fuwa’s service isn’t a necessity. And with cheap games on Steam, cheap mobile games, and easily available DS games, there are more opportunities than ever before for people to try visual novels for themselves. So Fuwanovel has decided there is more future heading down another road, providing support for development, providing an information hub for the huge number of players out there. This is something which no other site offers and something which opens up more possibilities than merely being a torrent site does. Getting people to stay once exposed by providing a friendly community and a comprehensive all-round service not found anywhere else will be Fuwa’s contribution to promoting the medium. But that won’t mean Fuwanovel will halt attempts at spreading. Spreading will continue with outreach programs. Tay plans on hitting the anime communities and suggesting to fans of anime to try their VN tie-ins. For example, targeting fans of Fate/Stay Night to try the VN. He’ll also possibly be reaching out to other mediums which are similar (like interactive fiction, fans of IF SHOULD try VNs.) Lastly three surveys were made, one for the forums, one for FB, one for twitter – all gave similar results. The most angst about this news is coming from OUTSIDE the community imo, but nobody has the data for that atm. If the greatest hit for the site are just people leeching off the front page, then Fuwanovel will survive. Also pre-patched has a bad reputation, and even amongst Fuwa visitors the amount who preferred pre-patched wasn’t convincing. And it’s very small anywhere else. At the end of the day, I disagree with your assessment. Fuwa hasn’t helped much INTRODUCE the medium to people, they helped keep people interested after exposed something which Fuwa plans to continue. Tay’s outreach program will help bring people in. And I don’t believe removing torrents will result in a monumental loss. But here are the options, Fuwa can either go legit or it can close. Those are the 2 options available. Tay is extremely busy atm, which is why he hasn’t responded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 It's an answer, I'm still 100% convinced, since it was my case (and others) that fuwa was a good introduction to the medium but hey, it's two different opinions, can't discuss tastes and colors as they say. Hopefully things happen for the best. And please But here are the options, Fuwa can either go legit or it can close. Those are the 2 options available. Tay is extremely busy atm, which is why he hasn’t responded. My words were respectful, were not complains or anything, So I'd rather you keep that king of moquery of whatever is was to yourself. And I'd still prefer unless it's impossible to have Tay's direct answer rather than an intermediates, even if I have to wait (And I know he's busy, I can read english). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklord Rooke Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 1) It wasn’t mockery and it wasn’t sarcasm, those are legitimately the options (if I correctly understood a one-liner Tay threw at me one day. If not he can correct it himself.) People seem to be under the impression that keeping the torrents was a viable option, from what I understand it wasn’t. 2 ) People don’t like me speaking for Tay (*looks at Zaka*) which is why I didn’t answer for a very long time. But seeing as the thread was continuing and people were starting to speculate, and seeing as I was involved in a good number of these sorts of discussions with Tay, I thought to add a statement and let Tay clarify later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakamutt Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 People seem to be under the impression that keeping the torrents was a viable option, from what I understand it wasn’t. pretty much. *looks back, squinting* I've actually talked to this guy who depends on pre-patched for jp stuff and buys lots of localized VNs as well (didn't seem to be faking it at least, didn't have much to gain.) Oh well, there are other places I can direct him to... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriginalRen Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 If fuwanovel wants to become a recluded, isolated community who wants to spread love and unicorns, then it's fine, but it won't be making VNs more popular.So I'll keep defending my point, Fuwa does much less - as far as I know yet - to make VNs popular in the west. Which is why I want to know the objective the site has now. If it still is the same, tell me how, if it isn't, tell me what. All you are essentially saying in these 2 sections is that Fuwanovel is useless and what we are doing is a waste of time. While not stated directly, it's pretty much the message here. As for the objective of Fuwanovel, our goal is and always has been the same. I do not think for 1 minute that in order to make something popular you need to provide people with copies of the material in question. Pardon my language, but that is a load of horseshit. Making something popular on and around the internet is through word of mouth, not through providing somebody with illegal copies. For example, a friend of mine plays a visual novel. He tells me about it. I play the visual novel and I enjoy it. I then tell another friend, who tells another friend, and like a meme on the internet, it takes off; we off all people should realize how fast things spread on the internet. You don't need torrents to do that. ExtraMana 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 All you are essentially saying in these 2 sections is that Fuwanovel is useless and what we are doing is a waste of time. While not stated directly, it's pretty much the message here. As for the objective of Fuwanovel, our goal is and always has been the same. I do not think for 1 minute that in order to make something popular you need to provide people with copies of the material in question. Pardon my language, but that is a load of horseshit. Making something popular on and around the internet is through word of mouth, not through providing somebody with illegal copies. For example, a friend of mine plays a visual novel. He tells me about it. I play the visual novel and I enjoy it. I then tell another friend, who tells another friend, and like a meme on the internet, it takes off; we off all people should realize how fast things spread on the internet. You don't need torrents to do that. I never said fuwa was a waste of time *sigh*. Fuwa offers new services it previously didn't whilst removing torrent, I'm wondering about how that will affect the userbase and how the admin wants to adjust the sites aim. I'm not even judging anything, I said a couple months ago I wasn't going to anymore. And no you don't need torrents to make something popular, it's just, in my opinion and for the time being, the best way to do it. I'm not questionning the decision, I would have probably done it myself had I been in the same situation. Just : what now, now that it's gone ? I'm trying really hard to provide an objective yet different point of view in a respectful way, it's up to the staff and the admins to take it into account, to adress it, or even to ignore it. So i'll repeat myself once again : I am not disputing the decision ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eclipsed Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Not sure what Maef is arguing for anymore but I'll also chime in. May I ask another question ? Sure! We know many things you plan to do, that has been exposed in the interview. But what is the objective of fuwanovel ? Make VNs popular in the west I don't think the "make VNs popular in the west" stands anymore. That's unfortunate. But that's still what we're trying to do, whether you believe it or not But if you still think so, I'm curious to know how you plan to try and make that an objective for your website. See 'Compensation' section in this thread Okay fuwanovel should - at least at the beginning - offer some new features, this is exciting for the current members, but does fuwa still want to spread ? Yes Or is fuwa a VN website, with reviews and tools for people already reading them ? It wants to spread AND provide all of these features Has fuwanovel lost it's ambitious objective to spread the genre ? Nope. I know it never was the best to do so, but it did it's part. Yay. For instance, I would have never tried more than a couple VN's had I not stumbled on the torrents here. But this isn't about the torrents, the torrents are gone, and the potential fuwa has to attract new players has highly decreased. Introduction kits are good if you have people to be introduced to the genre. Ren argued this already. We're going word of mouth to attract new players now instead torrents. For the record, we totally would've kept the torrents if it was safe & viable to do so. I remember you saying you tried to reach to the anime communities. Could you devellop that point ? Coming soon Thank you in advance Np! Please like, subscribe, etc.! Mr Poltroon and OriginalRen 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriginalRen Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 I never said fuwa was a waste of time *sigh*. Fuwa offers new services it previously didn't whilst removing torrent, I'm wondering about how that will affect the userbase and how the admin wants to adjust the sites aim. I'm not even judging anything, I said a couple months ago I wasn't going to anymore. And no you don't need torrents to make something popular, it's just, in my opinion and for the time being, the best way to do it. I'm not questionning the decision, I would have probably done it myself had I been in the same situation. Just : what now, now that it's gone ? I'm trying really hard to provide an objective yet different point of view in a respectful way, it's up to the staff and the admins to take it into account, to adress it, or even to ignore it. So i'll repeat myself once again : I am not disputing the decision ! You aren't disputing the decision, but you are questioning it. In other words, you aren't arguing the approach, but you are disagreeing with it. I understand that, however I'm going to be honest when I say that it always feels to me that you are just upset things aren't happening the way you want them to. You said you were leaving the site in a very respectable manner, yet here you are again finding a way to question what the site is doing (much like you did in the award's thread recently). The part that gets me upset is that when you question and argue points about the direction of the site, you don't know all of your facts. If you paid attention to the site changes, you would have known reviews are open to everyone. On the same note, if you paid attention to any of Tay's announcements, you'd already have known the answer to your questions. ExtraMana 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 I'M SIMPLY ASKING QUESTIONS TO TAY, WTF IS YOUR PROBLEM ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 I’m going to respond to Maef’s post here: http://forums.fuwanovel.net/index.php?/topic/8694-important-domain-and-host-transfer/?p=240053. I realize the topic has moved in other directions, but a promise is a promise! Hi maef. As I’ve told you before, I think you do a great job cutting to the heart of the issues, and while I think I’ve answered all of these questions here and there in several different posts, it’s worth the time and effort to collect them all here for your consideration. I look forward to your feedback/input. Here are the questions I’m hearing from you. Let me know if I missed any: What is the objective of Fuwanovel? If it’s still “Make VNs popular in the West”, what’s the new gameplan for doing so? In my (Tay’s) mind, how did dropping torrents affect the site and its goals? What new features are being planned to compensate for loss of torrents? How do you plan on getting new players? What is the objective of Fuwanovel? If it’s still “Make VNs popular in the West”, what’s the new gameplan for doing so? If we’re talking about site stationary, then yes, we’re absolutely keeping “Make Visual Novels Popular in the West” as our tagline : P. If we’re talking about site strategy, let me break it down into short and intermediate-term goals (I’ll leave the long-term goals for another post). Short term goals (6-8 months): A) Keep Fuwa relevant, B ) keep building the house, C) Foster/rebuild relationships, D) (possible) VNTLS replacement A) Keep Fuwa relevant: by building new features and increasing blog draw; optimizing searchability by a complete SEO overhaul; building a resource stream to commission special articles and projects; B ) Keep building the house: get the redesigns up (for all 3 sites); enhance Fuwa Academy content beyond lessons and lexicon; build the PC database to >250 games and get a good start on the mobile database; start getting patching guides up; we have 12 VN reviewers on the hub but I wont be happy until I get the last 2 “big” fish on my list; and finish my Fate/HA walkthrough : P C) Relationships: I’ve started forming partnerships with devs for the reviews team, but there are many more I’ll be approaching soon; outreach to TL teams whose patches were on front site + discussion about ways to help; prep resources for TL teams who want private boards on forums for their projects; outreach and joint projects with other VN communities (in discussions atm); evangelizing anime/FB groups and equal-exchange with bigger anime/manga/LN communities; D) I’m talking with folks like [need to get permission before adding name] about ways we can set up a VNTLS replacement Intermediate-Term Goals: E) Fan TL Academy; F) Fan Creation Academy; G) Special Japanese VN news program (Planning on these 3 projects is pretty far along, but as I haven’t had a chance to even bring them up in the LC, yet, I’ll leave it there for the moment) In my (Tay’s) mind, how did dropping torrents affect the site and its goals? I agree with you, Maef, that dropping torrents was a big deal and a threat to our appeal. I think the most important way that it affected the site and its goals from my perspective, is that it forced me to look at the profile of the average user who was going to stick around even after the torrents went offline, and figure out what keeps them coming back. I came to two conclusions: users who “stay” do so for at least one of two reasons: 1) community, or 2) ease of use. If you’re reading this post, you probably get #1 already, so let’s talk #2: People like Fuwa for how easy it is to access information and resources – and that went/goes for more than just torrents. If you take our walkthroughs as an example: they’re far-and-away the most popular English VN walkthroughs on the net. According to Google (I’ve been spending a lot of time with their keywords tools), our walkthroughs are used more and rank higher than GameFAQs for the vast majority of the “popular” VNs, and almost 100% of the less-popular VNs for which we have a walkthrough. Zaka’s TL updates are the same way. The Ongoing Projects board has been quite popular, too, as it allows people to easily find and track a project. The list goes on. If Fuwa can build products which hit on each facet of the hobby and make it as easy as possible to use, we’ll have staying power and we’ll have growing power. There were tons of other mental changes, too, like the benefits of stability. For me, personally, there was a huge mental shift when I realized that there is no longer the threat of unannounced, sudden destruction: I/we now have control of our staying power: owning our own domain and hosting means that as long as the bills get paid, we’ll be here in 12 months time, or in 2 years, or 3 years, etc. What new features are being planned to compensate for loss of torrents? Reviews hub, possible further takeover of VNTLS role, expanded and commissioned blog content, guest blogging program, possible auto-patchers for VNs (user gets the game, gets the patch from the TL team, downloads our autopatcher, and avoids a headache of installation) (this is just on the drawing board, though, so temper expectations), Fuwa Academy lessons + mentor program + lexicon for new players, mobile VN database, partnerships with big TL companies and big/small OELVN devs for review copies of games for FuwaReviews team, a smokin’-hot new front site design, expanding PC database to >250 of most popular VNs, patching guides for the most popular VNs, VN buying guide written by a new friend who wrote the reddit buying guide. Further down the road: Fan TL Academy; Fan Creation Academy; Special Japanese VN news program; expanded interactive fiction section How do you plan on getting new players? Fuwa Academy lessons and resources; complete overhaul of our site SEO to improve visibility; evangelizing and partnerships with anime groups (where the anime group’s corresponding VN has its own page with lots of info); providing lolis for clephas to sacrifice to the Old Gods; intermediate players via possible VNTLS replacement; Steam curation programs (includes promoting, for example, Meru’s list); I have a handful of other ideas but I think I left that notebook at school and I'm tired The last thing I'll say is that the reviews hub is a good illustration of how I personally function. I think Fuwanovel can be a hub of all the facets of the VN hobby, and that we'll be relevant because we are going to write/commission authoritative guides/articles, host our own stuff, and link and promote external groups/sites generously. I want to get to the point where Fuwa is so easy to use, that people want to use it to navigate the VN landscape just because we make it so easy. My brain got pretty tired writing that up, so I’m sure I missed some stuff. Let me know if an answer isn’t clear or not sufficiently comprehensive for you. I really appreciate your Qs and input, Maef. I see Fuwa as a hobby -- I give the site a lot of time, but that's because I have fun working on stuff with friends here. Yes -- I have a vision and roadmap of where I think Fuwa can go, but underneath all of those ideas is a foundation of fun and cooperation. I want to enjoy myself when I come to Fuwa, and I want everybody else to, too. We need to pace ourselves and make sure we're all having fun, and the improvements will come along. Emi, Rose, FinalChaos and 11 others 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklord Rooke Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Dammit! Reached quota for likes >:c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodai Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Dammit! Reached quota for likes >:c I'll like it on your behalf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darklord Rooke Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Thank you, you're a champ! I'll just 'like' your post..... dammit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Poltroon Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 *sees wall of text* *automatic like before reading* *reads* That's kind of unfair isn't it? Though the post was mighty interesting and exactly what I wanted... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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