Comyu Discussion

[Okami]

ChaosWraith,

 

Well I do plan to finish it, and I said that this is my opinion up to this point. It's like discussing episode of anime that just aired and you watched it while Anime is still not finished. It's not your "final judgment" just your opinion and expectation for now.

 

True at least as far as protagonist is concerned I doubt that I will change my opinion about him, just like Funnerific said that's not a good reason enough for him to do what he does it's closer to an excuse for himself. True I might hate him a little less if he at least has an excuse, I will probably still hate him.

 

True I myself unlike Funnerific did like everything except protagonist and Benio's ending.

 

And as for Benio

It's not the same Haru assaulted her when she had a hangover and she resisted, it was practically a rape. Akihito is doing it very willingly.

[ChaosWraith]

@Funnerific I dunno, I guess I just treat all VN's with the "One True End" tag differently, I don't even really see the other routes as anything more than just a fun distraction, or getting to know the other cast members better, before the real story unfolds.

I'll try explain it, though obviously its hard to explain while still being vague, but I'll do my best

It's not just his mother's death, its also his escape from his conscience for his actions - the lives that he has taken and those affected by it. The protagonist doesn't really handle well at all that killing an avatar = 5 human deaths, because those 5 humans all are connected to others. He knows personally that killing someone affects everyone that person was close to. For example in one of the routes he meets someone who was close to one of the members controlling 'Jack the Ripper' and it devastates him, because even though stopping Jack was the right thing to do, it still has negative consequences and he can't handle that.

The reason he can't handle it relates to his confrontation with his mothers killer, I honestly can't remember which part of the VN that is in so I have no idea if you've read it yet or not, so I'll put it in a second spoiler below - it really helps explain it in my opinion.

This also helps refine the point I try to make above, but isn't as vague, doesn't involve any of the main heroines however, but is to do with the protagonists past.

The protagonist confronts his mothers killer and killed him as revenge. This however leads to him witnessing someone very close to the killer committing suicide, and in the suicide note blaming whoever killed him for taking him away from her. This devastates the protagonist, as he takes the notes blame to heart.

@Okami He's a lot better in the other routes, Benio's route overall was pretty shit and even the joke route is better.

[Yukiru]

@Okami He's just like that, Benio's like that, Haru's like that, And other characters also get to it for the sake of running away from pain, I don't think it's that big of a deal, but oh well, opinions are opinions.

 

@Chaos The fun distraction was Ayaya, the others are not as good, but still good.

[ChaosWraith]

@Yukiru I kinda realized I made it sound like everything except Kagome's route is bad, I definitely do not feel that way! Hisoka's route made me shed tears, Mayuki's was super kawai-desu and Ayaya's made me laugh hysterically. I just always feel when I know there's a true end waiting, I really don't mind if the other routes are potentially bad, as long as the true ending is good?

It's kinda hard to explain... :<

[Okami]

@Yukiru

 

Benio for one isn't like that for sure she beliefs in one true love, and Haru is even worse then protagonist except she doesn't have that big of a rule so she doesn't bother me so much. And other characters also aren't like that, at least not up till this point. And for me it is a big deal to have a protagonist that is a whore and that I hate for that.

 

@ChaosWaraith

 

First spoiler as well as first half of second spoiler is from Benio's route, and that's exactly the second thing I said I don't like about him, He is undefined.

At one point he says he doesn't regret it and that he doesn't

sympathizes with them and then he is suddenly in pain over it.

 

True even if we ignore that and just say that he is doing that to escape from pain that still doesn't justify it.

 

Also I like to watch on all routes/endings equally it doesn't meeter if there is a true route or not. True I can ignore 1 or 2 bad routes if others are good but the protagonist probably want change in other routes witch is still a big negative point, even if I absolutely love everything else in a VN protagonist like that will still drag it down big time. That doesn't mean it won't be a great VN but it could still be so much better with a decent protagonist.

[ChaosWraith]

@Okami It's called wearing a mask. Maybe I understand it a bit more because I had a really bad childhood and I'd always put on a fake smile and say "everything is alright" to those around me.

The protagonist might say he's alright with everything, but this is clearly not the case and as you get to the other routes you'll clearly see that he is NOT okay with it at all and it actually affects him quite dramatically.

The best explanation I can give is to read it for yourself and see the truth with your own eyes, I can keep trying until I'm blue in the face but until you've read it yourself you will not have seen the whole picture.

And a protagonists can definitely change depending on the route, different routes are sometimes written by different people, and not only that - but different events happen in different routes which can dramatically affect the way the protagonist behaves. For example: Route A, protagonist finds his first love. Route B, protagonist gets addicted to drugs. Route C, protagonist best friend gets murdered. Route D, protagonist gets forced to move to a new city - can you honestly tell me that the protagonist is the same in all 4 of those hypothetical routes? The events around us shape who we are.

[Mr. Meogii]

So! The full patch for Comyu has finally been released.

I already finished reading the entire thing, but now that it's been translated I finally have an excuse for making this thread

 

 

I'll just say that it's top-tier stuff, people. Amongst the 5 best translated VNs I've read. If you like slice of life and such you probably won't enjoy it much (besides maybe Mayuki's route) but if you're into chuuni stuff, this is a must read~

 

Chunni stuff ?

[Okami]

@ChaosWaraith

 

Well ok you are right about last part, protagonists can change depending on the route it just rarely happens.

 

Once I had read other routes I'l let you know what I think.

 

@MR. Meogii

 

Yes it's a Chunii VN.

 

True it doesn't mean you can't like both slice of life/Moe and Chunii VNs.

[Clephas]

Akihito never stops being a man-whore... but tbh, I found Akihito more realistic in that fashion than most VN protags.  Guys that age refusing no-strings sex offers?  pfft

[Kaguya]

I think Akihito was a good protagonist. His life had some dark moments and they did affect him, but they weren't that bad so he never got to any extreme- he has his personality and his opinions, and he's not the cliché "gotta be faithful, moral and care much more about everyone else than about myslef!" protagonist. His "kindness to woman only" philosophy is ok due to his life until now as well.

 

 

Chunni stuff ?

chuunibyou. Just look it up

[Okami]

Akihito never stops being a man-whore... but tbh, I found Akihito more realistic in that fashion than most VN protags.  Guys that age refusing no-strings sex offers?  pfft

 

I think that there are plenty of guys who would refuse such things (Including myself), they might be in minority in 3D but hey that's just one more reason 3D sucks.

 

@Kaguya

 

I think that there is a pretty good reason why "gotta be faithful" protagonists are cliche in non-nukige VNs and I think they should be that way. At least they won't gonna get any love for me otherwise.

[Kaguya]

I think that there are plenty of guys who would refuse such things (Including myself), they might be in minority in 3D but hey that's just one more reason 3D sucks.

 

@Kaguya

 

I think that there is a pretty good reason why "gotta be faithful" protagonists are cliche in non-nukige VNs and I think they should be that way. At least they won't gonna get any love for me otherwise.

I dislike most VNs with protagonists like that. The ones I like the most are in works full of the common chuuni stuff- and as Clephas said already, loveless sex, brutal heroine deaths and falling in love with enemies are just common in those

 

The pure-hearted, common, somewhat dense and faithful protagonist is just boring to me. Though this is a matter of opinion.

[Okami]

I dislike most VNs with protagonists like that. The ones I like the most are full of the common chuuni stuff- and as Clephas said already, loveless sex, brutal heroine deaths and falling in love with enemies are just common in those

 

The pure-hearted, common, somewhat dense and faithful protagonist is just boring to me. Though this is a matter of opinion.

 

loveless sex, brutal heroine deaths, just no, that is terrible I have no idea how can anyone like that, especially the first. At least if you care for characters I don't see how can you like it.

 

And I don't think they are that common stuff in Chunii, I prefer Chunii and serious stories over a Moe/slice of life too, when I say that my favorite genre is action X romance I actually refer to Chunii x Romance I just say action because it's easier for most people to understand it that way.

[Kaguya]

loveless sex, brutal heroine deaths, just no, that is terrible I have no idea how can anyone like that, especially the first. At least if you care for characters I don't see how can you like it.

 

And I don't think they are that common stuff in Chunii, I prefer Chunii and serious stories over a Moe/slice of life too, when I say that my favorite genre is action X romance I actually refer to Chunii x Romance I just say action because it's easier for most people to understand it that way.

I like my characters amoral or immoral. It just makes everything more fun. The whole justice, love peace and order thingy is just annoying. While I was reading Comyu, Benio seriously annoyed me. I was thinking "can someone please blow her head up" whenever she talked.

 

Utsuge is my second favorite game tag. I love bad endings, and having heroines die is just interesting. I also hold the view that human relationships are just trades, so loveless sex is not a big deal at all. Both parties want pleasure, so they have sex. What's weird, bad or wrong about it?

 

My favorite girl in comyu was Yoruko. The reason? Blind loyalty. She follows Gasai's orders and would gladly die for his sake as his sword or shield. I just love heroines like that, too. Imagine all sorts of things you could do with a servant like that <3

[Okami]

I like my characters amoral or immoral. It just makes everything more fun. The whole justice, love peace and order thingy is just annoying. While I was reading Comyu, Benio seriously annoyed me. I was thinking "can someone please blow her head up" whenever she talked.

 

Utsuge is my second favorite game tag. I love bad endings, and having heroines die is just interesting. I also hold the view that human relationships are just trades, so loveless sex is not a big deal at all. Both parties want pleasure, so they have sex. What's weird, bad or wrong about it?

 

My favorite girl in comyu was Yoruko. The reason? Blind loyalty. She follows Gasai's orders and would gladly die for his sake as his sword or shield. I just love heroines like that, too. Imagine all sorts of things you could do with a servant like that <3

 

I am against morals and blind justice too but I hate bad/sad endings and I absolutely hate loveless sex. Everything is wrong and bad about it just fallowing that simple pleasure is noting better then being hardcore junkie who just wants his fix.

And to me it seems you don't care for characters as you say that "having heroines die is just interesting". And by saying that your favorite character is Yoruko becouse "Imagine all sorts of things you could do with a servant like that" seems like you care for H more then for a story.  And if that is a case our reasons for liking VNs in a first place are completely different. Like I said, if you care for characters I don't see how could you like those things.

[Kaguya]

I am against morals and blind justice too but I hate bad/sad endings and I absolutely hate loveless sex. Everything is wrong and bad about it just fallowing that simple pleasure is noting better then being hardcore junkie who just wants his fix.

And to me it seems you don't care for characters as you say that "having heroines die is just interesting". And by saying that your favorite character is Yoruko becouse "Imagine all sorts of things you could do with a servant like that" seems like you care for H more then for a story.  And if that is a case our reasons for liking VNs in a first place are completely different. Like I said, if you care for characters I don't see how could you like those things.

Nah, I don't care about H at all. In fact, I skip most H-scenes unless they're important to the story. I was thinking something more along the lines of ordering the character around so that you don't have any work to do.

 

I like characters and I care for them. It's just that, quoting Urobuchi: "I have nothing but contempt for the deceitful thing men call 'happiness', and find myself with no choice but to push my characters, whom I pour my heart and soul out to create, into the abyss of tragedy." stories with good endings just sound fake. Those characters are going to eventually break up, die, and it'll most likely be miserable. Despair is pretty fun too, so I like seeing it.

 

Pleasure is fine. You're comparing having sex to being a drug addict- having sex is just a common thing that won't harm your body, while being a junkie after his next fix will harm you and will potentially cause you to harm others around you as well.

[Okami]

Nah, I don't care about H at all. In fact, I skip most H-scenes unless they're important to the story. I was thinking something more along the lines of ordering the character around so that you don't have any work to do.

 

I like characters and I care for them. It's just that, quoting Urobuchi: "I have nothing but contempt for the deceitful thing men call 'happiness', and find myself with no choice but to push my characters, whom I pour my heart and soul out to create, into the abyss of tragedy." stories with good endings just sound fake. Those characters are going to eventually break up, die, and it'll most likely be miserable. Despair is pretty fun too, so I like seeing it.

 

Pleasure is fine. You're comparing having sex to being a drug addict- having sex is just a common thing that won't harm your body, while being a junkie after his next fix will harm you and will potentially cause you to harm others around you as well.

 

I don't really get how can someone really care for characters while wanting them to end up killed, tortured, treated like dearth or worse just because it feels more real and closer to 3D world. It's like saying I care for my family but it would be interesting to see them all get killed when they get to hard times because that is more realistic. Those things just don't really match witch leads me to doubt how deeply you really care for them.

 

And yes having loveless sex all the time is exactly like being a drug addict, both are needs and hard addictions and in both cases you just drown yourself in pleasure with pleasure as only goal. There are many plant drugs that are 100% natural so that's not any different either, and sex will also potentially cause you to harm others just as drugs if you don't get it in time once you are addicted. If anything sex is even worse as drug addicts at least realize that they have problem, and none drug is as wide spread as sex.

[Kaguya]

1-

I don't really get how can someone really care for characters while wanting them to end up killed, tortured, treated like dearth or worse just because it feels more real and closer to 3D world. It's like saying I care for my family but it would be interesting to see them all get killed when they get to hard times because that is more realistic. Those things just don't really match witch leads me to doubt how deeply you really care for them.

 

2-

And yes having loveless sex all the time is exactly like being a drug addict, both are needs and hard addictions and in both cases you just drown yourself in pleasure with pleasure as only goal. There are many plant drugs that are 100% natural so that's not any different either, and sex will also potentially cause you to harm others just as drugs if you don't get it in time once you are addicted. If anything sex if even worse as drug addicts at least realize that they have problem, and none drug is as wide spread as sex.

 

Ok, so I'll try to get back in track to the comyu discussion here.

1- I do care about them. I feel interest towards the actions they'll take, feel some affection to those characters and like them. For example, Yoruko is super cute (talking about personality and behavior here, not appearance). I wouldn't like it if anything happened to her.

 

I just dislike the heroines a lot of the time, though. So, for example, Benio. I reeeeally disliked her. To the point where her death would be a satisfying event.

Even with a character that I liked, such as Mayuki, seeing her death would be fine if it served for character development.

 

See? they are characters, not actual people. You want them to have their time to shine. Sometimes, the death of a character can be used to bring more depth to characters I actually like. Especially when it happens brutally, because it serves to shock the other characters as well.

 

2- this is a really hardcore and extremist view that would just derail the entire thread even more if I tried to adress it. I wouldn't compare sex to drugs, but I'll just say that I'm also totally fine with drug addicts as long as they don't cause any damage to me especifically. Humans are just animals, after all. Nothing wrong with drowning in pleasure as long as you don't bother my pleasure, lol.

 

To not derail the thread anymore, please be sure to talk about comyu if you do reply.

[Okami]

Ok, so I'll try to get back in track to the comyu discussion here.

1- I do care about them. I feel interest towards the actions they'll take, feel some affection to those characters and like them. For example, Yoruko is super cute (talking about personality and behavior here, not appearance). I wouldn't like it if anything happened to her.

I just dislike the heroines a lot of the time, though. So, for example, Benio. I reeeeally disliked her. To the point where her death would be a satisfying event. I liked Mayuki, though. So seeing her die could make for some good dramatic moments as well.

 

See? they are characters, not actual people. You want them to have their time to shine. Sometimes, the death of a character can be used to bring more depth to characters I actually like. Especially when it happens brutally, because it serves to shock the other characters as well.

 

2- this is a really hardcore and extremist view that would just derail the entire thread even more if I tried to adress it. I wouldn't compare sex to drugs, but I'll just say that I'm also totally fine with drug addicts as long as they don't cause any damage to me especifically. Humans are just animals, after all. Nothing wrong with drowning in pleasure as long as you don't bother my pleasure, lol.

 

To not derail the thread anymore, please be sure to talk about comyu if you do reply.

 

You see you make a difference between them, witch means you don't care so much about them as you care for 3D people. If I had to choose between something bad happening to my favorite characters or my 3D friends and family I would choose a later as I care for character more then for 3D people. And that's the reason why you like those things while I don't, it's about how much you care for them. People who care a lot for characters will not like those thing people who don't care that much won't be bothered by them much or will even like them.

 

This is related to Comyu as it proves that people who deeply care for characters most probably won't like the protagonist.

 

I'l leave the second meeter as it is to not go far off-topic.

[Clephas]

lol... loveless sex happens surprisingly often in chuuni VNs...  They might fall in love later, but sex as escapism isn't uncommon.  In Abyss Homicide Club (which has really low sexual content) the protagonist sleeps with Non, despite the fact that he never does love her romantically, and he only falls in love with Kasuga after he has had sex with her. 

 

I never really understood why people hold that kind of thing against the protagonists... though I always had to laugh at Yoruko's scene in Comyu, because of whose route it is in. 

 

Also... Benio isn't worth being faithful to, in my mind.  Someone that stubbornly naive needs to get a nice kick in the teeth on occasion.  In chuuni, complete innocents like her are just annoying (Vermilion's Alice is another example of a type of heroine that has no business being anything other than Victim A in a chuuni VN). 

 

If you dislike Akihito for his sexual tendencies, you'll probably hate Sora in Devils Devel Concept even more, since he basically does whatever the hell he feels like at a given moment (though he never is actually unfaithful once he 'picks' one of them, unless it is at the girl's suggestion, because of his belief in the value of 'contracts'). 

 

Edit:  Incidentally, Akihito fans and haters fought on the Japanese-language boards after the game first came out, even more intensely than you two are right now.  I just have to grin at this.

[Yukiru]

Death is a beautiful thing, having one of your favorite characters die is a really good feeling. 

Kagome's huge spoiler down there.

Itsuki's death was just so beautiful he became one of my favorite characters

 

lol... loveless sex happens surprisingly often in chuuni VNs...  They might fall in love later, but sex as escapism isn't uncommon.  In Abyss Homicide Club (which has really low sexual content) the protagonist sleeps with Non, despite the fact that he never does love her romantically, and he only falls in love with Kasuga after he has had sex with her. 

 

I never really understood why people hold that kind of thing against the protagonists... though I always had to laugh at Yoruko's scene in Comyu, because of whose route it is in. 

 

Also... Benio isn't worth being faithful to, in my mind.  Someone that stubbornly naive needs to get a nice kick in the teeth on occasion.  In chuuni, complete innocents like her are just annoying (Vermilion's Alice is another example of a type of heroine that has no business being anything other than Victim A in a chuuni VN). 

 

If you dislike Akihito for his sexual tendencies, you'll probably hate Sora in Devils Devel Concept even more, since he basically does whatever the hell he feels like at a given moment (though he never is actually unfaithful once he 'picks' one of them, unless it is at the girl's suggestion, because of his belief in the value of 'contracts'). 

 

Edit:  Incidentally, Akihito fans and haters fought on the Japanese-language boards after the game first came out, even more intensely than you two are right now.  I just have to grin at this.

I don't want to get anymore hyped for DDC dangit- I liked Akihito because of his whoryness, actually. That was my first time seeing a protagonist like him, likewise it was my first reading a route like Hisoka's.

 

Funnily enough, I liked Comyu because it's not something that's seen very often, but it seems it's something pretty normal in untranslated works from the way you're talking about Comyu.

 

I laugh at Yoruko's for the mere fact it happened, let alone how it happened and when it happened. lol

[Okami]

@ Yukiru

 

I just don't get the way you think, I really don't see how can you considered death of someone you care for to be a good thing unless you don't really care for him. If you care for your family/friends you won't say that it's beautiful thing for them to die, for me that's just a pure logic.

 

I also don't see how can you like protagonist being a whore unless you just want something different from usual while not caring for how different it is, or if you just want him to have sex with every girl so you can get many H. otherwise I just don't get it.

 

@ Celphes

 

Well if he doesn't consider Benio to be worth being faithful to then he shouldn't be with her in a first place, otherwise he is just using her and no meeter what kind of character she is nothing can justify that.

 

And while you say you can't understand why people hold that kind of thing against the protagonists I can't understand how can some people not hold it against him. Especially in the serious stories, if it's some lighthearted story like for example Kamidori I could understand how can people ignore protagonist having sex with bunch of girls because story is not that serous and shouldn't be taken that way but in serious stories I just can't go over it.

I can't say anything for DDC as that one is not translated yet but I am not so sure that I would hate a protagonist as it seems to be very unique VN, well I for sure won't like the fact that protagonist is "Doing whatever he likes" when it comes to sex but depending on the story and characters I might not mind it as much as I do in Comyu + you said he changes as far as that is  concerned after getting with a heroine witch is already better then Akihito (At least in Benio Route).

[Funnerific]

I just don't get the way you think, I really don't see how can you considered death of someone you care for to be a good thing unless you don't really care for him. If you care for your family/friends you won't say that it's beautiful thing for them to die, for me that's just a pure logic.

It's not that strange, really. Death, rape or other cruel things invoke strong feelings for the character just as much or possibly more than any "nice" scene ever could. The question is whether you can stomach it, I usually like rape victim heroines but don't really react to violent heroine deaths other than the rare "that was pretty cool".

 

If I'm not mistaken, that's kind of similar to how people like Netorare, though it certainly isn't my thing.

[Clephas]

I don't enjoy rape or NTR... but a well-timed heroine death can frequently have a great impact.  I prefer protag deaths though. 

[Yukiru]

@ Yukiru

 

I just don't get the way you think, I really don't see how can you considered death of someone you care for to be a good thing unless you don't really care for him. If you care for your family/friends you won't say that it's beautiful thing for them to die, for me that's just a pure logic.

 

I also don't see how can you like protagonist being a whore unless you just want something different from usual while not caring for how different it is, or if you just want him to have sex with every girl so you can get many H. otherwise I just don't get it.

I won't argue on the first point since that's just a matter of opinions, and explaining my "philosophy" is both derailing and bothersome.

 

Now then, making a big fuzz out of H just seems alien to me, a body is just a tool, sex is just a hobby, I don't like it myself for it being anti-hygienic, for dislike towards 3D, etc, etc. But that's just a personal dislike.

 

Then if a character wants to have sex out of love, it's damn boring, his character is unappealing, monologues are dull and I get nothing interesting out of it. But if a character has no interest in love, it is just more interesting- trying to understand a character is more attractive than seeing through a transparent character.

 

Akihito is not that big of a whore, I mean- he didn't have Ayaya for dinner canon-wise. His being a whore is probably just him deceiving himself, just like the feminist thingy.

 

I actually skip through H, I don't want to lose time in something so trivial and boring unless I have to, and yeah- sex is trivial, it doesn't worth making a big fuzz out of it.