Interview of Oprainfall with MangaGamer

[ChaosRaven]

There's a new interview of Operation Rainfall with MangaGamer. It's the first part of two. Nothing earth-shakingly new, but still a nice read.

Most interesting part for me was about Supipara and MangaGamer being positive that they'll not only release the two already existing chapters, but also the following ones that would still have to be developed by Minori. I would have really liked to hear more details about that, especially how Minori is going to solve the problem that Nanao Naru, who was their main artist for until Supipara isn't working for them anymore. He's working at Nanawind for a few years now and has drawn the art for Alia's Carnival! for them.

So what will Minori do? Fake the art style, or try to hire him again, or will they just use a different art style instead?

[Decay]

First part was super standard. The second part of the interview was put up today and there are a couple more interesting questions but nothing to write home about. One of the more noteworthy parts of it was that MG brought up the "otoko no ko" genre's rising popularity in Japan, implying that maybe they're looking into licensing one of those VNs?

[Darklord Rooke]

1 minute ago, Decay said:

First part was super standard. The second part of the interview was put up today and there are a couple more interesting questions but nothing to write home about. One of the more noteworthy parts of it was that MG brought up the "otoko no ko" genre's rising popularity in Japan, implying that maybe they're looking into licensing one of those VNs?

The first part was seriously dullsville. Also it's typical that the sole interesting bit was stuck on the very last page of the very last part  

[sanahtlig]

Huh.  And here I was impressed that MangaGamer wrote up a professional-sounding explanation of the genre for a casual audience.  I thought the industry had collectively decided to ignore the people they're selling to.

[Leaf]

I got at least this much, that working on Visual Novels is no walk in the park. I'm still trying to figure out this whole VN thing and to me it's like anime in novel/text form. I can see that the VN genre localization is getting more popular and fans are eating it up. Just hope the build up keeps going at a steady pace. There is gonna be a problem with a few naysayers cause of the 18+ stuff and I know watching from anime that the take on sexuality in the west and japan is very different. Some people can look past that and some can't, is why it's not getting as much attention as it should. Even anime localization censors things out, be it erotic or gorey. It's the fans and the workers that dedicate themselves to the localization of Visual Novels that keep this genre alive in the west. Also Tokyo Babel looks pretty good so I might get that soon to support the fandom.

[Vorathiel]

Nice interviews, but nothing really informative.

But this fragment made me cringe:

Quote

 The first of course, is the judgmental assumption that featuring sexuality and sex as one element of a story devalues the entire work or product, which couldn’t be further from the truth. Sexuality is an important aspect of human nature, personal relationships, and character development. Being able to include those elements only furthers the depth a story can offer. 

It's like not accepting what h scenes in VNs are, and made them something much deeper than they actually are.
Sex in vns is not 'part of human nature'. It's much more important. Justification of h scenes by saying that those are just 'part of human nature' is silly, because also part of human nature is waking up and then changing clothes. But yet, nobody ever wrote a big, extremally detailed scene about changing clothes in the morning.
They could make sex in books/movies/tv series style. Just give a few sentences that implies sex had a place maybe even a few detais about what kind of sex, or dialogues during this activity, and that's all. And it works that way in every other medium.
But no, they're extremally detailed in vns, and that makes them just a pornography without any meaning.
Sex in vns is not 'part of human nature that enchances the story'. It's almost always fanservicey porn.

[Chuee]

54 minutes ago, Vorathiel said:

Nice interviews, but nothing really informative.

But this fragment made me cringe:

It's like not accepting what h scenes in VNs are, and made them something much deeper than they actually are.
Sex in vns is not 'part of human nature'. It's much more important. Justification of h scenes by saying that those are just 'part of human nature' is silly, because also part of human nature is waking up and then changing clothes. But yet, nobody ever wrote a big, extremally detailed scene about changing clothes in the morning.
They could make sex in books/movies/tv series style. Just give a few sentences that implies sex had a place maybe even a few detais about what kind of sex, or dialogues during this activity, and that's all. And it works that way in every other medium.
But no, they're extremally detailed in vns, and that makes them just a pornography without any meaning.
Sex in vns is not 'part of human nature that enchances the story'. It's almost always fanservicey porn.

Getting dressed is something you do basically every day, and as an action it holds literally no meaning. In the context of a relationship, sex holds a lot of meaning, for some people more so than others (vast majority of VNs only use pure-ish heroines which this heavily applies to). The only reason those mediums you listed portray sex differently is because they'd run into problems if they showed certain things so they have to go into sexual scenes with that in mind. So basically, the act of two people having sex is inherently sexual, so the only way you're going to make a sex scene not "fanservice-y" is by censoring things. It's also worth noting that genres like LNs or anime are no less sexualized than VNs are, but characters having sex in those genres is a taboo, so as a result you end up with harem shows where the guy never picks a girl (only when the story ends do they pick anyone), and stuff like Shinmai Maou no Testament where the characters basically go around making each other orgasm every episode but strictly avoid penetrative sex. 

[sanahtlig]

The value of sex in VNs is that, done properly, it enhances the romance.  It's the climax to romantic buildup.

MangaGamer's statement has truth to it.  The Western mindset is that porn by its very nature devalues the work.  That porn is not art and art cannot contain porn.  This assumption is baseless.  Porn works quite well in many stories: Song of Saya and School Days, just to name a few.  The integration of hardcore porn and story is what makes Japanese eroge unique as a genre and as an experience.  Not to mention the age-gate that porn enforces tends to discourage the childish JRPG-style storytelling that Japanese games have become somewhat infamous for.  You can't pander to an audience that you're legally forbidden to sell to.

[Eai]

What i don't like about eroge and visual novels in general, are these pseudo justifications about h scenes. It's always the same arguments that i see over and over, when the people actually want to see sex and try to justify it by all means.

19 hours ago, sanahtlig said:

The value of sex in VNs is that, done properly, it enhances the romance.  It's the climax to romantic buildup.

MangaGamer's statement has truth to it.  The Western mindset is that porn by its very nature devalues the work.  That porn is not art and art cannot contain porn.  This assumption is baseless.  Porn works quite well in many stories: Song of Saya and School Days, just to name a few.  The integration of hardcore porn and story is what makes Japanese eroge unique as a genre and as an experience.  Not to mention the age-gate that porn enforces tends to discourage the childish JRPG-style storytelling that Japanese games have become somewhat infamous for.  You can't pander to an audience that you're legally forbidden to sell to.

You have a lot of misconceptions. It's a common one to think that it is a thing about a "western mindset" in that case because there are actually a lot of japanese as well who think that porn degrade works. I don't see how it enhances the romance: you don't have to show sex to have a good romance. And even by showing sex, to make them as explicit that the ones in visual novel

A lot of japanese people are precisely not interested into visual novel for this sole reason. And don't be mistaken; visual novels are seen as "porn" game by the average japanese as well as the average westerner and no more accepted than here. There are actually even a lot of people in japan would be happy if this medium would disappear or are voicely against it.

It's even more ridiculous that the scenes need to be mosaiced making the genre even more dumb. If people want to see sex, they have manga and doujin, at least this medium give the possibility to artists to display their art in a fair amount, contrary to eroge makers who always draw very badly what is hidden by censors because no bit of it can be seen. I originally though the unmosaiced parts were redrawn by mangagamer because of how bad  they look, but since it seems to not be the case, it's even more ridiculous. Basically games are not even worth to be licensed with demosaiced scenes because of that.

Visual novels without sex scenes would still be the current medium they are, you lose nothing by removing the h scenes.

 

[Decay]

I don't buy into the idea that pornographic sex scenes enhance romance. What it does do is deliver a certain kind of cathartic gratification as they deliver a sort of payoff for the buildup that came before. Standard charage h-scenes are cheap way to deliver a climax for a relationship arc, one that requires little thought or creativity. Other kinds of h-scenes in non-nukige titles, such as rape scenes, instead are a rather cheap and uncreative way to evoke sympathy or anger from the readers. 

This post sounds judgemental as all hell, but really, I have come to enjoy the unique formula of relationship-building and sexual payoff that eroge offers. However, I am under no illusion that these elements offer some kind of depth that can't be provided elsewise, nor are h-scenes usually the best way to accomplish what they ultimately aim to do. Instead, they've ended up scratching an itch many of us have come to have, and I suspect it's the same kind of itch that readers of erotic fan fiction have, except they deliver that payoff within the original story itself.

As for the words MG used in their interview, they can't just say "a handful of porn scenes doesn't actually devalue the entire work" when you consider the sheer number of people who feel exactly that. These people aren't exactly lying to us when they say that a single pornongraphic scene can poison the entire well. You can't just say "NO, YOU'RE WRONG!" when most people probably think that way and will never change that way of thought. This even goes for most otaku. You gotta respect their feelings on the matter and find ways to serve them instead. I wonder how many potential customers MG has lost after they've stumbled onto their site and saw what it contains? For all the shit we give SP, the division of all-ages and 18+ brands was a really smart move, and is something I've been saying MG should do for years.

[Darklord Rooke]

A general rule of thumb is if you can remove the sex scenes without impacting the story, then you don't really have an erotic story rather porn scenes within a story. These obviously don't include those novels which are all about the sex. An erotic story tends to be one where the sex scenes are actually important to the story. 

I agree that MG did go a little over the top in its defense of sex scenes. The idea of 'sharing' and 'compromise' is also an important part of personal relationships and character development, but a 20 minute long scene depicting (in detail) the husband pattering around the house doing the household chores isn't exactly riveting reading. Which is the crux of the matter - scenes within a story are there to service the story, not character relationships or character growth. Stories should contain those qualities within them, but in a manner which enhances the story, not in a separate 5/10/20 minute scene which achieves very little if anything at all (unless the story doesn't have a story.) Just my 2c on the matter.

MG makes the distinction between 'eroge' and 'nukige', but they fail to make the distinction between actual erotic stories and stories with a few porn scenes sprinkled in. They say eroge can have quality story and character development, but the different between erotica and stories with porn scenes (imo, and one or two editors I've talked with) is whether the sex scenes are meaningful to the story. And no, reinforcing character relationships with a 15 minute "ah ... uh" session isn't being meaningful to the story.

But anyway, I don't have anything against sexy fiction, I consume them in book form and VN form (I have about 20 erotic/porn novels on the Kindle as well as my VN collection,) but I definitely realise the potential for sex scenes to detract from a story. Basically when I consume sexy VNs it's in the form of an RPG, or something with little plot. When I'm in the mood to read something serious, and I come across a sex scene jammed in the middle, I'm always tempted to jam down the ctrl key. Usually because they're stuck in haphazardly. Just my philosophy. 

[Kawasumi]

Isnt this a personal preference really?

Like, I have seen really bad h scenes in my time that still enhanced the romance in relationship for me.

I can still agree on the way that h scenes are portrayed in most vns make it seem like porn for obvious reasons (like the camera angles and the way they interact with eachother while doing the act). But for me, it actually works, especially if they have really good afterglow scenes, it seems like the characters really connect on another level.

Or maybe I just really love porn, who knows.

[Yuuko]

5 hours ago, Eai said:

The worst of visual novel/eroge being nukige because they are basically garbage. It's even more ridiculous that the scenes need to be mosaiced making the genre even more dumb.

Did you just call porn garbage? You really just did call plain porn garbage!

Regarding the mosaics that makes all the IRL Japanese adult videos dumb too.

[Eai]

13 hours ago, Kiriririri said:

Did you just call porn garbage? You really just did call plain porn garbage!

Regarding the mosaics that makes all the IRL Japanese adult videos dumb too.

at least the IRL japanese video will not affect what is behind the mosaics. Every eroge artist is drawing what is behind them extremely badly because there is no reason to put effort into it. So what is the purpose of demosaiced western releases? I mean other than gasping at how bad it is.  i see people saying the purpose is to release the games as they were intended to be.

[Kawasumi]

1 minute ago, Eai said:

Nukige are giving a bad reputation to the visual novel genre. They cannot qualify as art even in the smallest sense, and most of the artists doing this type of content are bad anyway. (writers as well as genga artists).

For the second point, at least the IRL japanese video will not affect what is behind the mosaics. Every eroge artist is drawing what is behind them extremely badly because there is no reason to put effort into it. So what is the purpose of demosaiced western releases? I mean other than gasping at how bad it is.  i see people saying the purpose is to release the games as they were intended to be...but the original version is the mosaiced one.

 

you dont get to decide what is art and whats not.

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, Eai said:

Nukige are giving a bad reputation to the visual novel genre. They cannot qualify as art even in the smallest sense, and most of the artists doing this type of content are bad anyway. (writers as well as genga artists).

For the second point, at least the IRL japanese video will not affect what is behind the mosaics. Every eroge artist is drawing what is behind them extremely badly because there is no reason to put effort into it. So what is the purpose of demosaiced western releases? I mean other than gasping at how bad it is.  i see people saying the purpose is to release the games as they were intended to be...but the original version is the mosaiced one.

It started as a porn game genre and still is a porn game genre with some games with just less porn and some odd ones without porn at all.

Also love how you say that EVERY eroge artist doesn't give a shit what's behind the mosaics when some certainly do like Hamashima Shigeo. (Clock Up aritist)

[Scorp]

I do not buy any love romance without sex scenes, absolutely. What's wrong with you, you love him for 3 years and you never ever kissed? What's wrong with you, people? You are 70-year old couple, who lived together for 50 years already and bored with all? If no sex - then boy definitely do not like the girl (and vice versa), that's my rule of thumb. I never believe in romantic feeling without mutual affection => leading to sex, of course. So do not give me that all ages with cutted out scenes and (if this is console release) even worse censorship like removed any non-pure kisses/curses/whores etc. (check any console release of 18+ game, like Cartagra, if you want to know how much it gets cutted out for the sake of the all age).

So if there is true romance - there must be sex. No exceptions. Bad and cheap scene execution is another story though... But better bad, than none. If you do not like - you can always skip them. But I read all "slurps" and "mnnnnms" author put there, probably because I am completionist.

[Scorp]

59 minutes ago, Kiriririri said:

Also love how you say that EVERY eroge artist doesn't give a shit what's behind the mosaics when some certainly do like Hamashima Shigeo. (Clock Up aritist)

Same could be applied for Sei Shojo, definitely.

I absolutely do not understand why normal people have to follow japanese mosaic fetish. That's plainly ridiculous. I want to see a whole scene, not an obscure one. If you do not want to show me genitals - do a perspective where it is not in the center of the screen, dammit! Not creating a pixelated blob which takes 1/4 of the screen, like I have an eye cancer. But no, they want to draw genitals, but cannot due to laws, so they put mosaics. And now it became a fetish on its own.

[Darklord Rooke]

4 hours ago, Scorp said:

I do not buy any love romance without sex scenes, absolutely. What's wrong with you, you love him for 3 years and you never ever kissed?  What's wrong with you, people? You are 70-year old couple, who lived together for 50 years already and bored with all? If no sex - then boy definitely do not like the girl (and vice versa), that's my rule of thumb

The question isn't whether there is or isn't sex, but whether the sex is shown. Plenty of things will never be shown in a story, that doesn't mean they never happen or that the information isn't revealed to readers. The idea that a story HAS to show sex in a 10 minute scene to depict true romance is not accurate. It's optional.

[Scorp]

24 minutes ago, Rooke said:

The question isn't whether there is or isn't sex, but whether the sex is shown. Plenty of things will never be shown in a story, that doesn't mean they never happen or that the information isn't revealed to readers. The idea that a story HAS to show sex in a 10 minute scene to depict true romance is not accurate. It's optional.

Yes, if I could - I would reduce length of these scenes to be somewhat like in old days (like in YUNO or Nocturnal Illusion for example), as it gets seriously boring to look at same static blowjob image for 10 minutes of continuous slurps.

But I disagree that it enough to have an idea that characters had sex - I am reading a VN, not a book, so I want to see and hear what happens, not just use my imagination - in this case I would read, well, book. So I want to get uncut experience, but if producer cannot make a version without mosaic - please, just choose different camera angle, I am completely okay how this is portrayed in Yurirei or in any Liar soft game - nice, sweet and uncensored.

Anyway, I am speaking about myself and my preferences. Of course, probably there exist someone, who would enjoy pure text VN without any CGs - but in this case there is no meaning to do a VN in first place (unless you plan to have an intricated branched plot, which is impossible to develop by any other means).

So I would not believe in romance without sex - as this is an eroge in first place - and as a VN reader I want to see that process - but not essentially real-time length.

[Eai]

I don't see how the scenes are enhancing the story. There is even no need to show explicit scenes to have romance. If the scene were only suggested what would be the problem? I really don't understand how there is this need to see things explicitly.

7 hours ago, Kiriririri said:

It started as a porn game genre and still is a porn game genre with some games with just less porn and some odd ones without porn at all.

Also love how you say that EVERY eroge artist doesn't give a shit what's behind the mosaics when some certainly do like Hamashima Shigeo. (Clock Up aritist)

What do you mean about "porn game genre"? So you mean that the sex was the main focus to begin with? That's untrue. Look at games like clannad which is old now (2004) and had zero sex scenes and still went popular. And Key have stated they didn't want to include sex scenes in their games even if some of their games have some.

I remember i have even heard of some people saying that a game like Euphoria was not a nukige...what these people are thinking seriously.

6 hours ago, Scorp said:

I absolutely do not understand why normal people have to follow japanese mosaic fetish. That's plainly ridiculous. I want to see a whole scene, not an obscure one. If you do not want to show me genitals - do a perspective where it is not in the center of the screen, dammit! Not creating a pixelated blob which takes 1/4 of the screen, like I have an eye cancer. But no, they want to draw genitals, but cannot due to laws, so they put mosaics. And now it became a fetish on its own.

Why it is a fetish? They can do nothing against the law and could have big problem if they don't respect it.

[Yuuko]

12 minutes ago, Eai said:

What do you mean about "porn game genre"? So you mean that the sex was the main focus to begin with? That's untrue. Look at games like clannad which is old now (2004) and had zero sex scenes and still went popular. And Key have stated they didn't want to include sex scenes in their games even if some of their games have some.

You are confusing nukige and eroge, proof that the former is bad for the genre in itself.

No I am not confusing nukige and eroge.

 

The first VNs made in the 80s were nukiges and so are most of the VNs now. Nukige is the mother of the genre. You can't say it gives the genre a bad reputation when they are what the genre is made of. The few odd ones that are all-ages are rather the ones that are twisting the meaning of the genre and trying to make it different. 

[Eai]

2 hours ago, Kiriririri said:

The first VNs made in the 80s were nukiges and so are most of the VNs now. Nukige is the mother of the genre. You can't say it gives the genre a bad reputation when they are what the genre is made of. The few odd ones that are all-ages are rather the ones that are twisting the meaning of the genre and trying to make it different. 

 I don't see from where you make your assumptions. What you say is incorrect. If they really were the mother of the genre, there would be no need to have different terms. It doesn't make sense to speak about the genre by ignoring this fact.

[Suzu Fanatic]

As someone with sexual experience with a loving partner, I can testify (from subjective perspective) that certain Hscenes do contribute a sense of bonding, trust, and romance - above and beyond generic gratification. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder etc~

[Scorp]

12 hours ago, Eai said:

Why it is a fetish? They can do nothing against the law and could have big problem if they don't respect it.

Because this formed a fanbase, who now started to think that this is normal and drawing genitals without mosaics looks awkward. And because of japanese society, which mosaic everything, this is now embedded in the brain of the artist. Moreover, I read somewhere, that it even lead to real life problems - guys got problems with erection because all the porn they watched was mosaic censored and in real life - there is nothing like that, you know - so they had to visit psychologist to normalize this situation. It was quite a few cases, of course, but still.

Mosaic is pure cancer for a brain, really. So I am against any form of it.