Denpasoft download limit

[EdwardWongHPTIV]

1 hour ago, Rooke said:

What's wrong with offsite backups? :S

If it's lost, broken, or melts in a fire 3 times? Mate, I have the original BG discs from near 20 years ago, that still works I might add (all 5 of them ... though I had to rummage for disc 3) and discs weren't made to last a long time, either. There are some games which have unfortunately corrupted, but the point of the matter is rarely should you lose them (in any way) 3 times unless you're careless, or you're unlucky. In which case you can just email them.

You buy the game, they deliver the game, you then have the option to store it (for your convenience) on your own hardware, after which it should be your responsibility to care for them. Previously when you bought a physical copy of the game 'back in the day' and it 'melted in a fire' the company in question wouldn't give you another copy for free, you know. 

Those who don't like to keep a physical copy of the game in their possession are in effect surrendering control of their own game to another party, whether it's in the cloud or whatever. So they can't exactly cry about 'inconvenience.' If you want 'convenience,' store it yourself.

This is a pretty minor thing to be worried about, comparatively, which is why I asked for people to limit the hyperbole. 

Nothing wrong with offsite backups, is Denpa going to advocate that in lieu of this change I wonder?

Well, I guess it depends on the reliability of the connection on both ends. Is a download going to be counted at the start? Or only when the server confirms the last packet sent? Will they be offering a hash of the file so you can verify it downloaded correctly? Will they support restarting partial downloads? What about when a virus hoses their machine and they reformat without thinking? Oh, right, we're supposed to burn copies on read only media.

You're right. Back in the day of purely physical distribution that was the case (unless you had proof of purchase or a CD key then sometimes you could get a replacement disc for a nominal fee). But we're talking about digital distribution on a platform that, until now, allowed unlimited downloads. It's hard to stick the genie back in the bottle. Using the nature of physical copies as an excuse, while reaping the benefits of digital distribution is a bit hypocritical.

Oh, I agree, like you I horde my games. But I outlined a number of reasons how the typical user could run out of downloads, and then, on top of whatever caused their data loss, they're going to have to deal with email lag time. It's frustrating. Adding salt to the wounds. Not a good position to be starting from when it comes to customer service.

Is it the end of the world? Certainly not if Denpa keeps up their part of the bargain (not that anyone had any say in the matter). I just don't accept their reason. Cut costs in lieu of fraud? Sure, I'm on board. Especially if they educate people on how to keep their data safe. People are hijacking accounts that use the same credentials as other sites and this is a stop gap until they can implement 2nd factor auth? Go for it! Unlimited downloads are unfortunately an untenable practice in this market? Yeah, I wish VNs were more popular too. Hell, I'd even be fine with paying a reasonable amount per gigabyte, past the allotted *verified* downloads, *if* they patched their shit and had 2nd factor.

Instead of being fans we're now painted as part of the problem. People are sharing accounts. They don't want to do this, but we shouldn't have shared our accounts. oO

*edit* Ok, I get it. I'm the annoying new guy that has unreasonable expectations. I'll vote with my wallet and you can do the same. Peace.

Edited March 4, 2016 by EdwardWongHPTIV

[Chuee]

24 minutes ago, EdwardWongHPTIV said:

*edit* Ok, I get it. I'm the annoying new guy that has unreasonable expectations. I'll vote with my wallet and you can do the same. Peace.

Plenty of active users on here say the exact same, so it has nothing to do with that. 

It's just that complaining over nothing for the sake of complaining gets pointless after the thousandth time. 

[Darklord Rooke]

 

1 hour ago, EdwardWongHPTIV said:

Well, I guess it depends on the reliability of the connection on both ends. Is a download going to be counted at the start? Or only when the server confirms the last packet sent? Will they be offering a hash of the file so you can verify it downloaded correctly? Will they support restarting partial downloads? 

As I said above, the only people who should have an actual, major grief with this policy are those with inconsistent internet connections. I actually have one, so I know what it’s like. Most people won’t have a problem. If they do, email them.

Most things are done by digital downloads these days, which wouldn’t be the case if everybody needed 4 attempts to download every piece of software they wanted. So logically most people have a reliable enough connection that the 3 download limit shouldn't be an inconvenience. On an unreliable, mobile, shitty connection, I have yet to surpass that number (that's right, I use a mobile connection for my computer ...)

If Denpa's connection is unreliable, or problematic, then people have a cause to be annoyed. But that's an unknown variable right now.

1 hour ago, EdwardWongHPTIV said:

What about when a virus hoses their machine and they reformat without thinking?

I'm actually hoping that happens to Steam one day. A virus will hose all their servers, all their backups, deleting everybody's record of which games they purchased along with their entire library of games. It would serve as a warning about the dangers of storing your stuff on other people’s machines. And I will laugh and laugh and laugh, and others will cry, and I will laugh some more.

1 hour ago, EdwardWongHPTIV said:

But we're talking about digital distribution on a platform that, until now, allowed unlimited downloads. It's hard to stick the genie back in the bottle. Using the nature of physical copies as an excuse, while reaping the benefits of digital distribution is a bit hypocritical.

Platforms do not, in effect, allow unlimited downloads, unless you’re one of those people running around who think Steam will continue to support games once they’re defunct. The previous version of Denpa likewise didn't offer unlimited downloads. Setting aside that triviality, Denpa are, in effect, offering as many downloads as before (unlimited? You can call it that if you wish.) They merely require you to check in every few iterations (note that this is not the same as limiting your overall downloads.) This is because, once more, these are their machines, and because it’s their machines obviously there will always be a degree of inconvenience involved when compared with using your own media. It is not their responsibility to minimise inconvenience for every user when it conflicts with priorities of the company. 

In fact, Denpa is more convenient for me than Steam. Why? Because I can easily store games off site, unlike Steam which even when having your own copy, will cause problems, need verification, require extra downloads. Not cool for people with limited bandwidth. I bought a physical copy of 'Life is Strange' for 40 dollars, got home, inserted the disc, discovered it required an extra 6 gig download (it wasn't advertised anywhere) 6 gigs for me is about 50 dollars, congratulations it just doubled the price of the game. 

In fact, this whole practice of offering 'surprise Steam downloads' for many physical versions of games royally fucks me over at times. What's the point of buying a physical copy of a game that requires most of the damn thing to be downloaded? And Blizzard and their SURPRISE MOTHERFUCKER! Starcraft 2 is an empty disc, AND you need to be always online. AHAHAHAHAHA! was not funny. I do not, however, bitch and moan and whine about this shit, because I realise companies have other priorities than to make things as convenient as humanly possible for every single one of their customers. Especially someone from Australia with a crappy internet connection.

1 hour ago, EdwardWongHPTIV said:

But I outlined a number of reasons how the typical user could run out of downloads,

Most of the reasons you outlined have been issues for decades (lost, melted, stolen, gambled away, mistaken for a donut and eaten.) If they were serious issues, they would have come to the fore by now, during that period when you only received a single copy. Crappy internet? On either side? Yeah, possible problem there. 

Also, offsite backups shouldn't be a laughing point. I don't see why everybody is so eager to surrender control of their goods and data to someone else. Microsoft's Windows 10 idea where computers wouldn't come without a HD and everybody stored everything on the 'Cloud' flat out horrified me.

1 hour ago, EdwardWongHPTIV said:

I'll vote with my wallet and you can do the same. Peace.

I wish more people did this. Many youngsters on the internet like to vote with their mouth. Much respect.

[EdwardWongHPTIV]

Well, enough of the subjective posturing over who's viewpoint is correct or complaining about who's complaining ad nauseam!

How about 360 TB of crystalline storage with a projected lifespan of 13 Billion years *in* a fire of up to 374 F or 190 C. Well maybe fire is an exaggeration, but baking is permissible. Link

So in 5-20 years when (if) this tech comes to market we can archive the shit out of our VNs. Happy end?

[sanahtlig]

 A limit of 3 downloads?  That could be a problem: both for the customer and Denpasoft.

One of the main reasons that users choose to go with official releases is convenience.  That's why video-streaming services like Crunchyroll have succeeded: not because anime fans suddenly changed their moral code, but because the service they provide is more reliable and convenient than their illegitimate competition.  A download limit of 3 isn't a huge problem in itself, but it gives the user one more reason to go with the (illegitimate) competition instead, which have no such limits.  Let's say I run out of downloads.  Do you think I'm going to e-mail Denpasoft customer support and beg for more downloads?  No!  I'm going to find the nearest torrent.  Me joining that torrent provides another uploader, which just prolongs the life of the torrent.  And once I become accustomed to using torrents (or other illegal downloads), I'm less likely to actually purchase games in the future. 

Of course, I can do off-site backups, right?  Sure, I can upload games to MEGA and other cloud storage services for safekeeping.  But wait--cloud storage is limited, so i'll need to team up with others to pool my storage resources.  And once again I've stumbled down the rabbit hole of illegal filesharing.  Not to mention that once these games are uploaded for "safekeeping", sharing with others is just a click away.  Piracy just became more convenient.  Denpasoft is shooting itself in the foot here.

Now consider the categorical imperative (what I like to use to decide if a given policy is principled or simply self-serving): what if all software companies did this?  Let's say I bought a new PC, or I wiped my hard drive and need to reinstall everything from scratch, and all these digital downloads I bought have various limits.  Now I don't need to just contact Denpasoft; I have to contact a whole bunch of companies, each with their own policies, just to get the access I paid for.

Let's be clear though: this limit is far less restrictive than MangaGamer's DRM.  Their online activation system limits you to 5 fresh installs, essentially.  Not only that, but each install requires you to visit their site and fish for an activation code.  This becomes quite irritating when your goal is to gather up a pack of games to put on a laptop for a trip (with the assumption of no Internet access).  Instead of just rounding up a few compressed archives and putting them on a flash drive, you have to install every game and then hunt down activation codes one-by-one.

Overall, I'm less irritated with this download restriction scheme than I am with MangaGamer's DRM-system.  I wouldn't boycott it on principle.  But it's just one more reason not to buy digital games from Sekai Project/Denpasoft.  Do they really need to give me even more reasons?  I'd recommend at the minimum increasing the download limit to 5, and preferably making the download limit refresh over time (like 3 per year).  Also, don't count a download against the limit unless the download actually completes.  Otherwise, Denpasoft should be prepared to lower prices to compensate for the diminished service they're providing.

[castor212]

This is just a thought, but looking at the western game, the Witcher 3 is one game that use a very different method to fight back piracy; by making it very easy to be pirated AND giving free DLCs, and makes those who would otherwise pirate it (like me) bought it instead, and worth every penny. 

 

I wonder if the same tactic can be employed in selling VNs? 

[Daverost]

Valve's policy on piracy has always been to make it easy enough to get the game that people won't even bother to pirate it.

Quote

"We think there is a fundamental misconception about piracy. Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem," he said. "If a pirate offers a product anywhere in the world, 24 x 7, purchasable from the convenience of your personal computer, and the legal provider says the product is region-locked, will come to your country 3 months after the US release, and can only be purchased at a brick and mortar store, then the pirate's service is more valuable."

The proof is in the proverbial pudding. "Prior to entering the Russian market, we were told that Russia was a waste of time because everyone would pirate our products. Russia is now about to become [Steam's] largest market in Europe," Newell said.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114391-Valves-Gabe-Newell-Says-Piracy-Is-a-Service-Problem

I don't think anyone, especially Sekai/Denpa, are going to argue that Steam does wonders for their sales and that the convenience of purchase and download, especially having it easily installable across multiple machines a single customer may have simply by logging into their account, are big incentives to buying the game from that platform.

So it's mind-boggling that they're going in the complete opposite direction for their own websites with an imposed download limit. If they're trying to deter piracy, making it harder to get the game you bought is only going to encourage people to not buy it. People are too lazy to pay money for trouble.

[Marcus]

Sekai Project is now an Android publisher. Why is this relevant here? Their first app, Kanji no Owari, has a download limit listed at 5-10 on the Google Play Store. 

Edit: I derped so hard.

[Yakumo]

On 3/4/2016 at 9:40 AM, sanahtlig said:

Let's be clear though: this limit is far less restrictive than MangaGamer's DRM.  Their online activation system limits you to 5 fresh installs, essentially.  Not only that, but each install requires you to visit their site and fish for an activation code.  This becomes quite irritating when your goal is to gather up a pack of games to put on a laptop for a trip (with the assumption of no Internet access).  Instead of just rounding up a few compressed archives and putting them on a flash drive, you have to install every game and then hunt down activation codes one-by-one.

Overall, I'm less irritated with this download restriction scheme than I am with MangaGamer's DRM-system.  I wouldn't boycott it on principle.  But it's just one more reason not to buy digital games from Sekai Project/Denpasoft.  Do they really need to give me even more reasons?  I'd recommend at the minimum increasing the download limit to 5, and preferably making the download limit refresh over time (like 3 per year).  Also, don't count a download against the limit unless the download actually completes.  Otherwise, Denpasoft should be prepared to lower prices to compensate for the diminished service they're providing.

Mangagamer doesn't do this anymore, though?  I've gotten Kindred Spirits and Beat Blades Haruka from them recently and neither of them have a limit.  My old purchase of Koihime Musou still lists it on the account page, so it's not like they're just hiding it either.  Neither of the new games required an activation code or have any sort of counter whatsoever.

[Helrouis]

8 hours ago, Marcus said:

Sekai Project is now an Android publisher. Why is this relevant here? Their first app, Kanji no Owari, has a download limit listed at 5-10 on the Google Play Store. 

Edit: Checked out a few other games and it seems download limits which a user might actually reach are fairly rare on Android. For example, Shall We Date games offer 500k-1m.

Hi there, I'm the dev for Kanji no Owari -- thanks for the mention!

I just wanted to clarify that the "installs" there indicate the total number of users who installed the game, not a hard limit.

It updates itself over a period of time, and the 5-10 is the average number of beta testers before launch.

[Timeless Wizard]

14 hours ago, Yakumo said:

Mangagamer doesn't do this anymore, though?  I've gotten Kindred Spirits and Beat Blades Haruka from them recently and neither of them have a limit.  My old purchase of Koihime Musou still lists it on the account page, so it's not like they're just hiding it either.  Neither of the new games required an activation code or have any sort of counter whatsoever.

Did Mangagamer really remove the download limit? It still says there is one on their support page - https://www.mangagamer.com/support.php#activation

[Down]

9 minutes ago, Timeless Wizard said:

Did Mangagamer really remove the download limit? It still says there is one on their support page - https://www.mangagamer.com/support.php#activation

Mangagamer is progressively getting rid of their DRMs, and since their download limit is not a download limit but an activation code limit for the DRM, they're also progressively getting rid of that.

Of course they need to convince each individual japanese company that DRMs aren't needed so they probably still have some games with activation codes - looking at my MG account it looks like Eden and Cartagra do, unless that's because I bought them before they got rid of DRMs.

[sanahtlig]

8 hours ago, Helrouis said:

Hi there, I'm the dev for Kanji no Owari -- thanks for the mention!

I just wanted to clarify that the "installs" there indicate the total number of users who installed the game, not a hard limit.

It updates itself over a period of time, and the 5-10 is the average number of beta testers before launch.

Just so you know, you're not allowed to have meaningful affiliations with multiple companies.  It's confusing, so please stop it.

[Timeless Wizard]

10 hours ago, Down said:

Mangagamer is progressively getting rid of their DRMs, and since their download limit is not a download limit but an activation code limit for the DRM, they're also progressively getting rid of that.

Of course they need to convince each individual japanese company that DRMs aren't needed so they probably still have some games with activation codes - looking at my MG account it looks like Eden and Cartagra do, unless that's because I bought them before they got rid of DRMs.

Thankyu for your answer. I am going to purchase Gahkthun and wanted to know if there will be a limit for it, but I am glad to hear they are getting rid of the DRMs as much as they can.

[Yakumo]

14 hours ago, Timeless Wizard said:

Did Mangagamer really remove the download limit? It still says there is one on their support page - https://www.mangagamer.com/support.php#activation

Well, like I said, it still has an activation code with a limit listed for my older purchase of Koihime Musou.  It's possible that they just don't do it for the newer games but still would for the older ones, I'm not really sure.  Gahkthun is obviously a newer release, and it and Kindred Spirits(which doesn't have a limit) are both from Liar Soft, so you would probably be fine for that one.

[Dergonu]

4 hours ago, Timeless Wizard said:

Thankyu for your answer. I am going to purchase Gahkthun and wanted to know if there will be a limit for it, but I am glad to hear they are getting rid of the DRMs as much as they can.

There is no limit for Gahkthun. 

Seems most of their new releases are without the DMR. It could also be, like Down said, that the games which used to have them no longer do, but its hard for me to check this as I would have to buy the game again. My poor wallet cant really take that at the moment  

Either way, for me, shuffle! Eden*, tick! tack!, Euphoria all have the DRM keys, though I bought them a while ago, ( the lastest among those was Euphoria, bought on the day of release,) and so its possible that if you buy one of those games now, it wont have them. 

(If anyone who has bought one of these games recently can check if they still have the DRM keys, that would be awesome.)  

[Timeless Wizard]

Thankyu for the answers, I am happy to hear there is no limit for Gahkthun. And to comment on the topic as well, I don't like the download limit. I do not know how much it really helps vs piracy but all I can see it do is hurt the people that do purchase the visual novel properly. I find myself uninstalling a lot of games and visual novels that I finished reading, only to download and install them again at a later time. The limit just hurts that.

While they apparently will offer more downloads if you contact their support, it really is just makes things less accessible to legit buyers, while the pirates do not have to deal with these limits at all.