How long did you study JP before you're good?

[Yeah Way]

Well, I really didn't mean in a way like that. Add Kanji 1 then Add Kanji 2, then you have your compound.

It's more of actually reading the whole thing in JP, like knowing the fact that the Example kanji is read as Nippon/Nihon.

I just don't know the mechanics of combining this things. Is there preset way to do so using the Onyomi and Kunyomi or just plain memorization?

Since, I can't be satisfied with just knowing the Kanji, its meaning, and Kanji A + B's meaning but really be able to add up the 2 to say it as a whole word.

[Sparkker]

Kun is usually how a kanji sounds on its own. In compounds, it could be either kun or on.

 

Let's say you know that 口 is pronounced "Kuchi" on its own. You are also aware of two on readings: "Kou" and "Ku".

You come across this word: 入口. This word is new, so you don't know how to say it. How should you pronounce it?

Assuming you only have the previous information to go on, you can't even guess right. It's "Iriguchi". "Guchi" is an inflection of "Kuchi": the unspoken "k" becomes a spoken "g". Some people don't even bother to count it as a different reading.

 

My point is, you should never get bogged down on readings. They're completely irregular. If you don't know the word, you can only guess how it's pronounced and you'll probably be wrong. By all means, know the kun reading. But if you want to save hassle, just learn the important compounds as seperate words. You can use the individual kanji to help memorise the meaning. 入 (enter) + 口 (mouth) = 入口 (entrance). Just never think of them as a pronunciation guide. You'd have an easier time trying to spell English phonetically.

 

Seriously, Japan should have switched to the roman alphabet as soon as they had the chance. At least abolish kanji and just use kana. The Koreans did just fine when they switched to a phonetic alphabet.

It's more of me happily reading the JP text in my mind then boom! How do I read this thing...

Kanji was invented due to the fact many JP words sound the same. If you say kami, you'll have like 3 or more meanings and that will cause some confusion or miscommunication.

[Yeah Way]

It's more of me happily reading the JP text in my mind then boom! How do I read this thing...

Kanji was invented due to the fact many JP words sound the same. If you say kami, you'll have like 3 or more meanings and that will cause some confusion or miscommunication.

Context. They never have to specify when talking, so why need the distinction in writing? It's been shown time and time again that words like sea, see, and "c" don't need to be spelt diffreently for people to know the diffrence.

 

And that's not why kanji were invented. They were imported from China when Japanese had no writing system at all.

[Sparkker]

Context. They never have to specify when talking, so why need the distinction in writing? It's been shown time and time again that words like sea, see, and "c" don't need to be spelt diffreently for people to know the diffrence.

 

And that's not why kanji were invented. They were imported from China when Japanese had no writing system at all.

 

Yes, "C" don't need to be spelt different for people to know the difference.

However, it's a different way of writing from our own. You just can't say that words like Kami(God), kami(Hair) and kami(Paper) don't need to be spelt differently so that people would know the difference.

 

2nd, they never have to specify because the context is implied. If there were no Kanji, it would mean that you can't go in specific details without someone misinterpreting your words in one way or another. Take for example I wrote the word, "Kami no Ki" in hiragana. You could interpret is as God's energy but what if others thought different. It's not like you can 100% say that what he implied there is God, even if he says Kami-sama. It's not like Kami only means God nor does Ki only mean Energy/Spirit.

 

Lastly, distinct seperation. While our writing system include spaces to distinguish one word from the other, Japanese doesn't have it and it means everything is clustered together. Will you want to guess which part of the sentence is a particle? What are the chances you can understand every sentence without misreading one of them as they are all clusetered together?

 

(I don't want to argue my opinion anymore... I give up. This is the best of my opinion.)

[Yeah Way]

Yes, "C" don't need to be spelt different for people to know the difference.

However, it's a different way of writing from our own. You just can't say that words like Kami(God), kami(Hair) and kami(Paper) don't need to be spelt differently so that people would know the difference.

 

2nd, they never have to specify because the context is implied. If there were no Kanji, it would mean that you can't go in specific details without someone misinterpreting your words in one way or another. Take for example I wrote the word, "Kami no Ki" in hiragana. You could interpret is as God's energy but what if others thought different. It's not like you can 100% say that what he implied there is God, even if he says Kami-sama. It's not like Kami only means God nor does Ki only mean Energy/Spirit.

 

Lastly, distinct seperation. While our writing system include spaces to distinguish one word from the other, Japanese doesn't have it and it means everything is clustered together. Will you want to guess which part of the sentence is a particle? What are the chances you can understand every sentence without misreading one of them as they are all clusetered together?

 

(I don't want to argue my opinion anymore... I give up. This is the best of my opinion.)

There's no way you could ever be unsure if they mean hair, god, or paper unless you're given so little context that the clause is meaningless anyway. If I saw a piece of writing that said "Kami no Ki" and nothing else, it wouldn't matter if I knew what "Kami" was being used. Those three words on their own have no value to me.

 

And yeah, you actually could read a lot of Japanese in just kana. Every 'Pokemon' game until 'Black and White' had no kanji, to give one example. If they did get rid of kanji, like the Koreans, they could always just introduce spacing, again like the Koreans.

 

Kanji is simply obsolete. In terms of practicality, it's just inferior to phonetic writing.

 

Also, Korean is also full of homophones like Japanese; so that argument just doesn't hold up.

[Deep Blue]

 

Lastly, distinct seperation. While our writing system include spaces to distinguish one word from the other, Japanese doesn't have it and it means everything is clustered together. Will you want to guess which part of the sentence is a particle? What are the chances you can understand every sentence without misreading one of them as they are all clusetered together?

 

(I don't want to argue my opinion anymore... I give up. This is the best of my opinion.)

Havingnospacesdoesn'tmakethetextorasentenceunreadableordoesit? it just makes it "harder"  to read it, you just need more time because you are not used to read like that, with a little practice you can read it as fast as a normal spaced sentence, even if I use numbers and weird symbols you will still be able to r34d 1t wh1th0ut 4ny pr0bl3m.

[zoom909]

There's no way you could ever be unsure if they mean hair, god, or paper unless you're given so little context that the clause is meaningless anyway. If I saw a piece of writing that said "Kami no Ki" and nothing else, it wouldn't matter if I knew what "Kami" was being used. Those three words on their own have no value to me.

If the title of some book was "Kami no Ki", it would have value to me as a book title.  But it would have to be written in kanji in order for me to tell whether it's "Spirit of God" or "Tree of the Gods" or "Paper Tree" etc.

 

And yeah, you actually could read a lot of Japanese in just kana. Every 'Pokemon' game until 'Black and White' had no kanji, to give one example. If they did get rid of kanji, like the Koreans, they could always just introduce spacing, again like the Koreans.  Also, Korean is also full of homophones like Japanese; so that argument just doesn't hold up.

It is fine for simple writing to be in kana--writing whose vocabulary approximates that of conversation.  But more complex writing has a much wider vocabulary.  The homophones make reading quite difficult, and on top of that there is another type of "homophone" that exists in Japanese but not in English:  where the kanji indicates a shade of meaning over a word (like "kiku" for example).In writing, Japanese authors would probably argue that they do not want to give up these extra shades of meaning that kanji provide.  If you really wanted to get rid of kanji, you could, but it's not so easy to disentangle kanji when the written vocabulary depends on it so much.

 

Kanji is simply obsolete. In terms of practicality, it's just inferior to phonetic writing.

Most of the other pictographic writing systems went out a long time ago, that's true.  But China and Japan have managed to maintain theirs throughout history and keep it going somehow.  It's like one of those international banks that is still processing on a mainframe with COBOL or something.

 

[Yeah Way]

 

There's no way you could ever be unsure if they mean hair, god, or paper unless you're given so little context that the clause is meaningless anyway. If I saw a piece of writing that said "Kami no Ki" and nothing else, it wouldn't matter if I knew what "Kami" was being used. Those three words on their own have no value to me.

If the title of some book was "Kami no Ki", it would have value to me as a book title.  But it would have to be written in kanji in order for me to tell whether it's "Spirit of God" or "Tree of the Gods" or "Paper Tree" etc.

 

And yeah, you actually could read a lot of Japanese in just kana. Every 'Pokemon' game until 'Black and White' had no kanji, to give one example. If they did get rid of kanji, like the Koreans, they could always just introduce spacing, again like the Koreans.  Also, Korean is also full of homophones like Japanese; so that argument just doesn't hold up.

It is fine for simple writing to be in kana--writing whose vocabulary approximates that of conversation.  But more complex writing has a much wider vocabulary.  The homophones make reading quite difficult, and on top of that there is another type of "homophone" that exists in Japanese but not in English:  where the kanji indicates a shade of meaning over a word (like "kiku" for example).In writing, Japanese authors would probably argue that they do not want to give up these extra shades of meaning that kanji provide.  If you really wanted to get rid of kanji, you could, but it's not so easy to disentangle kanji when the written vocabulary depends on it so much.

 

Kanji is simply obsolete. In terms of practicality, it's just inferior to phonetic writing.

Most of the other pictographic writing systems went out a long time ago, that's true.  But China and Japan have managed to maintain theirs throughout history and keep it going somehow.  It's like one of those international banks that is still processing on a mainframe with COBOL or something.

 

 

If I found a book titled "Kami no Ki", I'd just check the blurb anyway, be it "God's Energy", "Paper Energy", or "Hair Energy". It really doesn't matter. In a serious situation, where communication needs to be specific, you will be given more information to go on anyway. It's not like kanji is without its benefits. Wordcounts would be much higher without them, for examlpe. Overall, I think the cons far outweigh the pros.

 

I already said that Korean is also full of homophones, also used to use chinese characters, and yet successfully transitioned to phonetic writing. You just totally ignored that, thanks.

[zoom909]

I already said that Korean is also full of homophones, also used to use chinese characters, and yet successfully transitioned to phonetic writing. You just totally ignored that, thanks.

 

Yes, I did, sorry.  I was focused on Japanese.

But did you know that they're still taught in Korean schools?  In fact, Korean students are expected to learn Chinese characters for application in Korean books.  That's because certain complex books and documents still contain Chinese characters.  So when you say "doing just fine", for everyday life, that's true.  But there are more applications for writing than just everyday life.

[Clephas]

It is hard to say how long it took... I studied in high school for a year... but I learned more from slice of life anime than anything else (I already knew grammar, I just needed the subtle stuff).  Cultural peculiarities of use, occasional verbal juxtapositions, implied subjects, all the little subtle aspects... I picked those up surprisingly fast, I recall.  Within a year of graduation I was at the point where I didn't need subtitles (though I was lazy, so I kept them anyway most of the time).  I honestly thought that was normal until I realized there weren't many others around me that had a little voice in the back of their heads pointing out translation mistakes...

 

You know you are decent at Japanese when you can tell the difference between two words that sound exactly the same based on only minimal context. 

[zoom909]

It is hard to say how long it took... I studied in high school for a year... but I learned more from slice of life anime than anything else (I already knew grammar, I just needed the subtle stuff).  Cultural peculiarities of use, occasional verbal juxtapositions, implied subjects, all the little subtle aspects... I picked those up surprisingly fast, I recall.  Within a year of graduation I was at the point where I didn't need subtitles (though I was lazy, so I kept them anyway most of the time).  I honestly thought that was normal until I realized there weren't many others around me that had a little voice in the back of their heads pointing out translation mistakes...

 

You know you are decent at Japanese when you can tell the difference between two words that sound exactly the same based on only minimal context. 

 

I understand about the "little voice"...and to me it can be very annoying at times.  I try to tell it to just shut up and enjoy the show--after all, the mistakes I see are usually minor compared to what we see in game translations--but still it's a little distracting.

I'd kind of like to just give up subs completely, but I'm lazy about it, too.  Especially since, for me, it pretty much doubles my watching time when I have to keep rewinding when characters speak fast.  I'll only put up with that if no one has subbed the show.

[LinovaA]

Oh.. so pointing out translation mistakes isn't normal... Well don't I feel good about myself now. heh heh. I am in no way or means fluent enough to go without subs, but there are times where I just kind of look at the screen scratch my head at certain translations. Mind you, sometimes I can understand as they are trying to make it flow better with English, but even still I hear the "little voice" every so often.

 

Confidence Level +1

[ExtraMana]

Study Japanese.

Nope I already know enough useless bits of dying langauges.

 

I opted for programming instead and built a couple websites.

[Clephas]

*Clephas looks outraged, and several nearby volcanoes erupt, new islands thrusting out of the seas, causing massive tsunamis*  How dare you call the One True Language a 'dying language'!  One day the curse born at Babel will be undone and we shall all once again know the joy of speaking Japanese, sweeping away the existence of all other languages. 

[Down]

Study Japanese.

Nope I already know enough useless bits of dying langauges.

 

I opted for programming instead and built a couple websites.

Didn't you know? Programming languages are dying too already, soon the very machines you're programming will do the code in your stead ヽ(◕‿◕✿)ﾉ

 

Instead you can learn japanese to read more porn! That sounds much more useful than a couple websites.

[Mephisto]

i'm still not good at japanese

 

i'm not even good at english

[Nosebleed]

Study Japanese.

Nope I already know enough useless bits of dying langauges.

 

I opted for programming instead and built a couple websites.

[Darklord Rooke]

Didn't you know? Programming languages are dying too already, soon the very machines you're programming will do the code in your stead ヽ(◕‿◕✿)ﾉ

 

Instead you can learn japanese to read more porn! That sounds much more useful than a couple websites.

 

[Yeah Way]

Yes, I did, sorry.  I was focused on Japanese.

But did you know that they're still taught in Korean schools?  In fact, Korean students are expected to learn Chinese characters for application in Korean books.  That's because certain complex books and documents still contain Chinese characters.  So when you say "doing just fine", for everyday life, that's true.  But there are more applications for writing than just everyday life.

Yes, I did know that. The Japanese could always do the same, no?

 

Such a thing's not uncommon in studying literature. We all have to learn how to read Shakespeare, and English hasn't undergone a writing reform since well before his time. Change happens, and people adjust. It really isn't unimaginable that the Japanese might one day undergo reform like the Koreans, Vietnamese, and others throughout history. Change takes a long time. Those Chinese characters will probably be phased out and become more and more useless as time goes on. Are we expected to be able to read Old English runes?

 

 It's fine if you don't agree that the change would be an improvement overall, but there's a very good argument for reform.

[zoom909]

Yes, I did know that. The Japanese could always do the same, no?

 

Such a thing's not uncommon in studying literature. We all have to learn how to read Shakespeare, and English hasn't undergone a writing reform since well before his time. Change happens, and people adjust. It really isn't unimaginable that the Japanese might one day undergo reform like the Koreans, Vietnamese, and others throughout history. Change takes a long time. Those Chinese characters will probably be phased out and become more and more useless as time goes on. Are we expected to be able to read Old English runes?

 

 It's fine if you don't agree that the change would be an improvement overall, but there's a very good argument for reform.

Yeah, if it came down to it, if I were Japanese, I think I'd probably vote to abandon kanji.  I suppose the homophone problem might eventually go away on its own.  (As people try to write in a non-confusing way, some of those borrowed Chinese words might fall into disuse.)

[Clephas]

You'd actually be surprised.  In terms of linguistic difference, Japanese has altered radically since the Meiji era, mostly in response to outside pressures, such as the need to create new terms to match new concepts.  Also, basic grammar has altered subtly, phasing out certain phonetic sounds and 'creating' others. 

 

In terms of kanji, symbolic languages have their own advantages vs phonetic ones.  I doubt the Japanese will phase them out any time soon (maybe in two or three centuries).  If nothing else, using kanji saves space, lol.

[Parallel Pain]

Chinese and Koreans have unfair advantages. I am from Taiwan so that's me.

 

It really depends on level of understanding. I started when I was 16. I was reading visual novels in Japanese (with an electronic dictionary) after 6 months with 80% understanding. I was on Clannad at 8 months to 1 year total. I don't know if I really improved after that. At least for the purpose of reading VNs. Officially cleared JLPT1 at 2.5 years iirc (the pre-switch version tho). But most of it is vocabs and formal stuff, neither of which I probably remember much. I do like being able to watch Taiga-Drama Jidaigeki and being able to pick out subtitle mistakes though.

[Yeah Way]

You'd actually be surprised.  In terms of linguistic difference, Japanese has altered radically since the Meiji era, mostly in response to outside pressures, such as the need to create new terms to match new concepts.  Also, basic grammar has altered subtly, phasing out certain phonetic sounds and 'creating' others.

Not radically enough, I say! xD But hey, if I had everything my way, we'd all have learnt Esperanto by now.

[Down]

I don't get why you'd want the japanese to drop the kanjis.

Aside from wasting a more than a thousand year old cultural heritage, what would you achieve exactly? Dumbing down the language? What would that do, make it more easy? So dumbing down the language to dumb down the people... I don't get it.

A language's complexity and nuances is what makes it interesting. Convenience is a thing but it's so boring.

[Yeah Way]

I don't get why you'd want the japanese to drop the kanjis.

Aside from wasting a more than a thousand year old cultural heritage, what would you achieve exactly? Dumbing down the language? What would that do, make it more easy? So dumbing down the language to dumb down the people... I don't get it.

A language's complexity and nuances is what makes it interesting. Convenience is a thing but it's so boring.

? 'Dumbing down' is a very subjective term. I don't think the Vietnamese or the Koreans would appreciate it if it was said that they 'dumbed their languages down' by changing from Chinese characters. I don't know how many times I need to say this: ideographs and phonographs both have their pros and cons! I just personally think that phonographs are the superior writing system; and, as someone learning Japanese, would love to see Japanese switch to a fully phonetic writing system.

 

It's been tested and proven that children learn to write phonetically spelt languages like Spanish at a higher proficiancy years earlier than English or French. I can only imagine the disparity is even wider between Spanish and Chinese.

However, one advantage of Chinese characters is that the many dialects of Chinse all have the same written standard (except, I believe, Cantonese?). Though Shanghai and Beijing may have different pronunciations, they write the same word the same way. This means that the spoken language barrier can be crossed via writing.

 

Still there have been advocates for reform throughout the history of China and Japan. For example, there a divided reform activist community in 19th century Japan. Some wanted all-kana and some wanted romaji. These were fluent native speakers who saw the difficulties of learning an ideographic written language and decided that a phonographic system would benefit there own people. They were learned people who knew full well of there heritage, literature, etc.

 

A language that follows strict, simple rules and has perfectly phonetic writing is NOT a language without nuance, complexity, and beauty. If you don't believe me, read up on Esperanto.