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What are the differences between visual novel, eroge, gal game, and a dating sim?

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Darklord Rooke Fuwa Master

Darklord Rooke

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What is the error?

Well, let's read through the criteria for adding games to their database (their criteria is similar to their definition, but they've put more effort into it and it's tighter. )

To qualify for inclusion in the VNDB database: 1 - the game needs to use novel narrative 2 - the game's narrative needs to be presented in a specific way, i.e ADV and 3 - the storytelling in the game needs to be uninterrupted by gameplay for a significant length. And this is where the error is. (Of course, a game can bypass this criteria completely if it is adored by one of the moderators, but let's leave that, shall we.)

I can understand what they tried to accomplish with point 3, but it has been poorly thought out and will lead to errors. Let me give you an example. Let's say we were trying to define an RPG, and we included in our criteria that 'the RPG elements of the game need to be uninterrupted by other gameplay for a significant length of time'. What would be the result? Let's take a post off the bioware boards as an example:

I've been saying for a while that the Be a Pro mode in the NHL games is veering towards RPG. You create your character with customisable appearance and stats, pick your class(position) and specialisation(role e.g. Sniper, Grinder, Power Forward) then grind to level up and unlock better perks and equipment. You could even consider your team mates NPC's if you really want to push it.

Piss off mate! Not a chance *shakes fist*! See the problem? Games like Tiger Woods Golf and The-Crappy-NHL game mentioned above, have significant RPG mechanics (like stats, levelling and grinding) that can go uninterrupted for a 'significant' length of time ('significant' being subjective and will vary from person to person.) However, nobody in their right mind would consider them RPGs.

How does this relate back to visual novels? Well, I'm guessing that some brainbox has managed to argue that Raidy's story goes 'uninterrupted by gameplay for a significant amount of time' (probably when she's having sex) and is therefore a visual novel. How else would a dungeon-crawling, h-RPG with (and I'm being mighty generous with the next part) one or two visual novel elements have been included into the database. There are a few debateable inclusions on VNDB (Blazblue, Kamidori, all those dating sims like True Love) but the inclusion of Raidy is absurd. Even J-List advertises it as a Yuri RPG/dungeon crawler.

So what's the problem with the definition/criteria? Specifically, the storytelling could go uninterrupted by gameplay for a 'significant' length of time, but the gameplay aspect of the 'visual novel' could then go along uninterrupted for 10 times as long. Would this matter? Not according to VNDB's definition. Maybe if they had said ('significant relative to yada yada but I'm not happy with this either.)

So, how do we keep people from saying Tiger Woods and NHL are RPG games? Easy. The focus of the game must be on the rpg elements and not the sporting gameplay.

Same deal with visual novels. The focus must be on the visual novel elements (narrative) for a game to be a visual novel. What's the focus of Tiger Woods? Playing golf. Is it an RPG? Nooooooo! What's the focus of Raidy? Dungeon-crawling. Is it a visual-novel? Noooooooo!

Have a game where the focus is split between two genres? Hellloooo hybrid!

But that's just me being picky.

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Steve Fuwa Master

Steve

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well you know, what makes ADV a specific term but not VN or dating sim?

You just want to use Japanese terms then?

Not important standalone, but important in conjunction with other elements.

Comparison would be:

1. This is a dating sim.

vs

2. This is moege set in present time high school with ADV text display and minigame elements, voiced characters, not voiced protagonist, lot of event CGs, multiple endings, enforced playing order and low sexual content.

now the second one says no spoilers about characters, the story or anything, it is description of what is the game like technically, if you want to know what is the story about, you can then find the story description and story content elements.

where as the first one tells you exactly nothing that could help you decide if you want to check the game more.

Now you could take exactly the tags mentioned in the instance 2 and call them a name, for example PakaGe, but then any other game that would for example have only one ending with the exact same other elements would not be considered PakaGe?

Thats what im going at.

Its like saying "This is a movie", where as some might argue that youtube videos are movies, for example ASDF Movie.

What you probably want to say is "Full evening action mystery movie starring Leonardo DiCaprio directed by Christopher Nolan" (I don't watch many Hollywood movies so all I know is that people often link director and actors in the movie with the technical side of the movie and decide by that, which can also be used in the first example as you can say it is KEY game or Lump of Sugar game and people know exactly even what artstyle you are talking about).

Thats what I mean mostly, it is argument same like "what is a movie" where as I can film myself taking a dump and call it a movie, but the important part would be that it is a "Shitty short movie" in this case and that would be the important information for people.

Same deal with visual novels. The focus must be on the visual novel elements (narrative) for a game to be a visual novel.

well the problem there is: who decides what are the exact "visual novel elements"

the answer would imo be: nobody has to, because it is pointless, just like this discussion xD but since there are people who have too much time just like we do, they will spend it on trying to define things that are not needed to be defined.

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RusAnon Fuwa Veteran

RusAnon

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Dating Sim - do you really need exactly what it must and must not have?

Yes, "sim" stands for simulation, which is specific kind of software and novels don't fit in this category.

To qualify as simulator, it has to mathematically model some kind of process, thats why date sims have "stats" that you have to raise. Clannad, on other hand, is novel, there's no simulation in the game itself.

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Steve Fuwa Master

Steve

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Honestly, I don't want VNDB tightening their inclusion criteria; in fact I'd actively resist it. I want a one-stop shop where I can find professional eroge, including those with gameplay. I'm actually a bit annoyed that they don't include Illusion's titles.

I agree with that, for example Erogamescape does much better job at Not limiting to what eroge actually really means as you can find all-ages adventures there as well as games like the Illusion ones and even small doujin flash games which I can enjoy.

Although I am not sure if they have any restrictions for like RPG gameplay ones, but since I am able to find the pure sex simulators there, I think the other gameplay ones, even like rhythm games should be fine.

I don't think there is any reason not to include those sex sims on VNDB, lot of them even have HF English translation of menu options and such and it would help English people finding those. Sure its easy to find those popular ones like Custom Maid (which btw sux imo :P) but for some other good ones, you have to search in Japanese and that for someone like me who can only read kana is pretty difficult, so for someone who cant even navigate the search websites it must be nearly impossible to find them.

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RusAnon Fuwa Veteran

RusAnon

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I don't think there is any reason not to include those sex sims on VNDB, lot of them even have HF English translation of menu options and such and it would help English people finding those. Sure its easy to find those popular ones like Custom Maid (which btw sux imo :P/>) but for some other good ones, you have to search in Japanese and that for someone like me who can only read kana is pretty difficult, so for someone who cant even navigate the search websites it must be nearly impossible to find them.

There's good reason which is stated on VNDB FAQ: these games are not novels, so obviously they have no place on novels database.

I can agree that it would be useful to have similar "jap games" database or something like that, but its silly to demand vndb to be it. Anyone can use vndb code to run his own db with whatever inclusion criterias he wants.

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Yeah Way Fuwa Elite

Yeah Way

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There's good reason which is stated on VNDB FAQ: these games are not novels, so obviously they have no place on novels database.

I can agree that it would be useful to have similar "jap games" database or something like that, but its silly to demand vndb to be it. Anyone can use vndb code to run his own db with whatever inclusion criterias he wants.

I agree with this: it's important to remember that for which the "N" in "VN" is there.

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Darklord Rooke Fuwa Master

Darklord Rooke

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Does anyone even make or play "Traditional" Dating Sims anymore? I haven't even come across a single title for one in any discussion here.

It seems to me like everyone knows what they are, but has never actually experienced one.

True Love was awesome. Persona 3 and Persona 4 have dating sim elements. 'Always remember me' from Winterwolves is said to be a dating sim, but I can't confirm because I never played it.

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Yeah Way Fuwa Elite

Yeah Way

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True Love was awesome. Persona 3 and Persona 4 have dating sim elements. 'Always remember me' from Winterwolves is said to be a dating sim, but I can't confirm because I never played it.

"True Love", eh? I'll give it a look. Also P3's & P4's social links had to have been those games' weakest points.

EDIT: Ach, so 90's.

Edited by Yeah Way
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RusAnon Fuwa Veteran

RusAnon

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Does anyone even make or play "Traditional" Dating Sims anymore? I haven't even come across a single title for one in any discussion here.

There are plenty of traditional dating sims even on vndb: Lovely x Cation, xx na Kanojo and tons of OELs like Heartache 101

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Steve Fuwa Master

Steve

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There's good reason which is stated on VNDB FAQ: these games are not novels, so obviously they have no place on novels database.

I can agree that it would be useful to have similar "jap games" database or something like that, but its silly to demand vndb to be it. Anyone can use vndb code to run his own db with whatever inclusion criterias he wants.

Well, if you look it that way I have to disagree, because that is exactly why these definitions hurt - it makes it harder for people to find something similar because it is spread over thousands of databases.

Take example: IMDB - Internet MOVIE Database

Yet you can still find information about TV series and even for example voice actors for several video games which has nothing to do with movies

(example: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1073668/ )

So yes, although the name is referring to specifically MOVIES, it is known fact that people who enjoy movies are most likely interested in TV series and lately also might be interested in video games.

So it is convenient to have it all in a single database exactly for that reason, the connection to each other is very direct.

Same with Visual Novels, people who ale interested in erotic visual novels can be often interested in erotic sexual simulators and sexual games from Japan, such as the Illusion games.

Also imagine if there was database for everything separately. Anime database, OVA database, H-anime database etc... Having things with similar "vibe" to it together is beneficial for the end user.

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zoom909 Fuwa Elite

zoom909

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Does anyone even make or play "Traditional" Dating Sims anymore? I haven't even come across a single title for one in any discussion here.

It seems to me like everyone knows what they are, but has never actually experienced one.

I did. I played Tokimeki Memorial several years ago.

The only one's I've really played and stuck with were Dream Club/Dream Club Zero.

I have messed around with Kimikiss & Amagami, and I mean to get back to them someday

Do you have a DS? There's always Love Plus...

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RusAnon Fuwa Veteran

RusAnon

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Also imagine if there was database for everything separately. Anime database, OVA database, H-anime database etc... Having things with similar "vibe" to it together is beneficial for the end user.

That analogy is false. "Anime" already includes "OVA" and "Hentai anime" by definition. And I don't really see a need to bundle anything else there, manga section of MAL would do better as separate site.

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Steve Fuwa Master

Steve

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That analogy is false. "Anime" already includes "OVA" and "Hentai anime" by definition. And I don't really see a need to bundle anything else there, manga section of MAL would do better as separate site.

Well that is the extreme how it could also look, but it would be even more annoying.

But already currently when I for example search for some unknown JP name I find, I can go to anidb, nope its not anime, I can go to vndb, nope its not vn, so some search for manga or something and it takes ages to find what it actually is. If I just google the name, it will take me to Japanese site where you have to be able to read kana pretty well and instinctively to recognize if its anime or vn or what it actually is, often the sites are even untranslatable with google translate as they are images.

And you must see that when there is a character art or artbook or whatever (for example you see it on sankaku), you have no chance to tell by the image if its from manga, anime, vn, sex game or whatever.

So ideally in my world anidb and vndb and all that including sex games would be connected, at least for the search so you can easily find more stuff you might like.

Also if that would be the case, people watching anime would have much better chance to find a VN, making them pore popular. I didn't even know something like VN exists in like first 2 months I watched anime (and I watched anime like Clannad - only then noticed the tag visual novel and looked it up).

Maybe its me but having a bigger databases for more forms of media at once seems to me like a great thing actually.

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RusAnon Fuwa Veteran

RusAnon

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But already currently when I for example search for some unknown JP name I find, I can go to anidb, nope its not anime, I can go to vndb, nope its not vn, so some search for manga or something and it takes ages to find what it actually is. If I just google the name, it will take me to Japanese site where you have to be able to read kana pretty well and instinctively to recognize if its anime or vn or what it actually is, often the sites are even untranslatable with google translate as they are images.

This is not issue of separate databases, its issue of search methods you use. I see no problems in building cross-indexes of vndb, mal and, for example, dlsite and search them all.

Hell, you could even make it easily with google custom search in, like, 3 minutes.

Edit: I even went ahead and created CSE with all major jap-related databases, https://www.google.com/cse/publicurl?cx=003169042795796959316:it9ajb3h27c, seems to be working good enough.

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Okami Fuwa Elite

Okami

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Wait aren't eroge, gal game, and a dating sim only like the genre of Visual novels? It is wath I always thought, VN are all thouse games that are focused on text and have choices and routes etc. And all the other terms are like genres to describe thouse VN's, like eroge is VN with H-scenes, dating sim is VN focused on dating and romance...And by seeing how people here use thouse terms I would say that I am not the only one who thinks this way. The question is am I wrong or are you people wrongly describing things. Like for example in link that Magicflier share in post above instead of saying "Visual Novels vs. Dating Simulation Games" it should be sad more like "Classic Visual Novels VS Dating sim".

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RusAnon Fuwa Veteran

RusAnon

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Wait aren't eroge, gal game, and a dating sim only like the genre of Visual novels?

No, all of them are separate beings and overlap only partially. For example, there's lots of well-known games from ILLUSION and TeaTime which are eroge and dating sims, but not VNs.

Or, for example, there's whole genre of H-RPGs based on RPGMaker engines (Violated Heroine being most known one), which are obviously eroge but not VNs.

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  • 2 months later...
cryofrzd Fuwa Elite

cryofrzd

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I instinctively make these definitions:

Visual novel: Story game with illustrations either in NVL or textbox style.

Eroge: Game with focus on erotic content or at least sexual appeal.

Dating sim: A game where you boast your stats to get the reward, a girl/boy.

 

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So an eroge is a quite wide definition incorporating most VN and dating sims. I don't know of a VN that'd also count as a dating sim, and I don't know of a dating sim that's also not an eroge.

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