About Canon Endings

[Guest]

Canon Endings are somewhat polemical in visual novels. 

There are visual novels that have one supposedly "True" End (Aka Clannad) others that have multiple supposedly "Canon" endings (Aka Tsukihime, Fate and Enzai that have 7 ends that are considered canon and the other 4\5 ends are just considererd "Bonus" Endings) and others that are left up to interpretation (Aka No!!!Thank you, Silent Hill Play Novel), but...

Should True\Canon Endings exist?

I saw some cases that the supposed "True" route ruined a visual novel for some people, who thought the other "Non-Canon" routes where more satisfactory (Ex: Nagisa from Clannad, Ren from Dmmd and Nano from togainu no chi), if we go by the logic of a "One-True end", the rest of the Endings of a visual novel are considered "What if" cenarios at best and "Unecessary" at worst.

That raises the question, Should True Routes exist? or Should all routes\Ends be considered Canon\True?

That's my attempt at making a discussion, 'cause thats looks like a interesting thing to talk about.

[Soulless Watcher]

I don't put much stock into the term "true" end, other than it should be read after every other route. When reading visual novels I always keep the theory of the many worlds interpretation in the back of my head. Each route and ending, "exists" in an equal manner, they all happened, will happen, and are happening at the same time. It's not an exactly comforting thought outside the realm of narrative, but the theory is an equalizing force in the realm of visual novels. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Soulless Watcher said:

I don't put much stock into the term "true" end, other than it should be read after every other route. When reading visual novels I always keep the theory of the many worlds interpretation in the back of my head. Each route and ending, "exists" in an equal manner, they all happened, will happen, and are happening at the same time. It's not an exactly comforting thought outside the realm of narrative, but the theory is an equalizing force in the realm of visual novels. 

I have similar interpretation at the back of my mind too, but some companies openly states what ending is "Canon" and some visual novels even call some endings true, the question is should that be a thing?

[Soulless Watcher]

9 minutes ago, SeniorBlitz said:

I have similar interpretation at the back of my mind too, but some companies openly states what ending is "Canon" and some visual novels even call some endings true, the question is should that be a thing?

This reminds me of a minor spat I got into with another fan of Madoka Magica, a rather homophobic one, who was quite upset that the original author of the storyline said in an interview that Sayaka and Kyouko would have become a legit romantic couple if they had survived the events of the show. One way to look at it, is that the god of the world is clearly stating the intent of his creation. That there is no other way to take it. The alternative I posited was to discount the Authors'  intent, that by applying the ideas of "The Death of the Author" there was nothing in the show itself that definitively pointed to romantic feelings between the two characters and that their relationship could have been clearly taken a different way. 

To care about what an author (or company especially) declares as "canon" is to discount your own ideas and views about the work, and instead blindly accept what an authority figure states. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Soulless Watcher

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Soulless Watcher said:

This reminds me of a minor spat I got into with another fan of Madoka Magica, a rather homophobic one, who was quite upset that the original author of the storyline said in an interview that Sayaka and Kyouko would have become a legit romantic couple if they had survived the events of the show. One way to look at it, is that the god of the world is clearly stating the intent of his creation. That there is no other way to take it. The alternative I posited was to discount the Authors'  intent, that by applying the ideas of "The Death of the Author" that there was nothing in the show itself that definitively pointed to romantic feelings between the two characters and that their relationship could have been clearly taken a different way. 

To care about what an author (or company especially) declares as "canon" is to discount your own ideas and views about the work, and instead blindly accept what an authority figure states. 

Interesting way of describing it, I agree. [OFF] I not very found of Homkophobics ;P

But I also want to read other peoples opinions about the Topic.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Guest

[PapaRabbi]

1 hour ago, Soulless Watcher said:

I don't put much stock into the term "true" end, other than it should be read after every other route.

This pretty much sums up how I feel about "true" ends as well. I've always felt that the proper canon ending is whichever one I felt fit the role the best (not sure if that makes sense I literally just woke up). I don't mean to say that my favourite endings are always canon to me, just that I don't really pay attention to what other people say is canon, even the creator.

[Silvz]

First of all, I have noticed that you have very similar tastes to mine, as I am openly gay (don't know about you), and read both yaoi and non-yaoi stuff (everything people talk about).

Second of all, it is funny that I am studying literature at college and the main topic on Narrative is canonicity and we discuss exactly what you are proposing here. I don't like talking too much, but my opinion is towards the idea that no text, be it literary or not, is created solely by the author, and the reader has as much as active role than the writer. Different works can (and are) interpreted in many ways by different people, according to their background and their life experiences around what is presented to them. We cannot think the author does not have an intention, as they do, of course, but after creating their works, it is up to the consumer to understand them as it is more fitting to them.

Funny fact: there is a very famous poem from a brazilian writer which is something like "There was a stone in my way", this sentence being repeated through it, and a university, in one of their entrance exams, asked what was the meaning of that, and the "correct" answer was something as "the troubles of life". However, the author is (or was) alive at the time, and he stated that he was literally writing about a stone that he found while walking.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Silvz said:

First of all, I have noticed that you have very similar tastes to mine, as I am openly gay (don't know about you), and read both yaoi and non-yaoi stuff (everything people talk about).

Second of all, it is funny that I am studying literature at college and the main topic on Narrative is canonicity and we discuss exactly what you are proposing here. I don't like talking too much, but my opinion is towards the idea that no text, be it literary or not, is created solely by the author, and the reader has as much as active role than the writer. Different works can (and are) interpreted in many ways by different people, according to their background and their life experiences around what is presented to them. We cannot think the author does not have an intention, as they do, of course, but after creating their works, it is up to the consumer to understand them as it is more fitting to them.

Funny fact: there is a very famous poem from a brazilian writer which is something like "There was a stone in my way", this sentence being repeated through it, and a university, in one of their entrance exams, asked what was the meaning of that, and the "correct" answer was something as "the troubles of life". However, the author is (or was) alive at the time, and he stated that he was literally writing about a stone that he found while walking.

[OFF]I'm actually Pansexual (Aka I don't care about gender and race, I like humans) and also from Brazil.

Yeah I agree.

[Clephas]

The point where a true/canon ending matters is when there is a sequel...  without a canon ending, it is difficult to link two multi-path VNs together.  As an example, Kaoru's path in Akagoei is considered canon for leading into Akagoei 3 (2 being a fandisc with extensive after-stories and revelations about Kaito's past).  It is a non-ero path, and it leads directly into the events of the first part of Akagoei 3's common path. 

True endings are a bit different... in the case of most true endings, elements of the other paths are included or used to enhance that path, and the level of detail and depth is usually on a completely different level from the other paths. 

[KainLegacy535]

Because of Clannad i dont belive in true endings anymore, better say i dont LIKE almost ANY true ending anymore.

[Funyarinpa]

I like having true endings, because I like plot-focused VNs and those often need a definite conclusion. I don't get very invested in VNs without a true route (a la charage), it feels like reading a bunch of connected short stories.

[Akimoto Masato]

I have a canon camera

Edited May 5, 2017 by Akimoto Masato
Spelled canon wrong

[Okarin]

1)

Think Little Busters. Refrain renders the regular routes meaningless. They still happen, but there's no mention of the feelings of each girl in the ending (I think). Anyway, the canon dictates that Riki ends up with Rin for good, even with that big harem following around. I don't know about Kud Wafter... I think it happens after Refrain, but maybe he doesn't end up together with Rin. I hope the anime for Kud Wafter releases soon, I'm looking forward to it for want of the VN.

2)

Is there a Silent Hill VN? Why nobody told me so?! I have to lay my hands on it ASAP.

[Guest]

On 2017-5-5 at 0:57 PM, Okarin said:

1)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Think Little Busters. Refrain renders the regular routes meaningless. They still happen, but there's no mention of the feelings of each girl in the ending (I think). Anyway, the canon dictates that Riki ends up with Rin for good, even with that big harem following around. I don't know about Kud Wafter... I think it happens after Refrain, but maybe he doesn't end up together with Rin. I hope the anime for Kud Wafter releases soon, I'm looking forward to it for want of the VN.

 

2)

Is there a Silent Hill VN? Why nobody told me so?! I have to lay my hands on it ASAP.

[OFF]VNDB if you want some information about it, I never finished it but from what I read it has a fuck ton of endings, also its connected to the Silent Hill 1 Plot (Even though theres was a scenario to a character named Andy which was deleted shortly after the release ;o(.

[Guest]

On 2017-5-5 at 7:07 AM, KainLegacy535 said:

Because of Clannad i dont belive in true endings anymore, better say i dont LIKE almost ANY true ending anymore.

I never played Clannad but I know that Nagisa is somewhat polemic...

[Guest]

On 2017-5-5 at 0:53 PM, Akimoto Masato said:

I have a canon camera

So is the other cameras "What if" cameras? (That joke was stupid)

[Guest]

On 2017-5-5 at 0:19 AM, Clephas said:

The point where a true/canon ending matters is when there is a sequel...  without a canon ending, it is difficult to link two multi-path VNs together.  As an example, Kaoru's path in Akagoei is considered canon for leading into Akagoei 3 (2 being a fandisc with extensive after-stories and revelations about Kaito's past).  It is a non-ero path, and it leads directly into the events of the first part of Akagoei 3's common path. 

True endings are a bit different... in the case of most true endings, elements of the other paths are included or used to enhance that path, and the level of detail and depth is usually on a completely different level from the other paths. 

Even though there are things like the Nasuverse which follows multiple continuities, but I undearstand your point.

[Guest]

I also forgot to mention Kara no Shoujo which has a Polemic True\Canon End which left a lot of people dissatisfied (which I have to agree some of the Bad and Normal Ends were way more interesting and conclusive.)

[Clephas]

21 minutes ago, SeniorBlitz said:

I also forgot to mention Kara no Shoujo which has a Polemic True\Canon End which left a lot of people dissatisfied (which I have to agree some of the Bad and Normal Ends were way more interesting and conclusive.)

This is just my experience, but most endings that become canon do so after the fact.  Only very rarely is an ending designed from the bottom up to be a canon one in a VN.  About 60% of the time, a 'canon' ending is a non-existent path that merges all of the paths from the original game to some extent (Grisaia did this).  Also, in some cases, an ending will be called canon to specifically deny a sequel being canon.  This is often done to smooth ruffled fan-feathers. 

True endings don't necessarily need to be satisfying (though they should be so, ideally).  They merely must provide a full conclusion to the story, which is their biggest difference from a canon ending, which is essentially an ending that exists to create the pretext for a sequel. 

[Akimoto Masato]

1 hour ago, SeniorBlitz said:

So is the other cameras "What if" cameras? (That joke was stupid)

I know it was, I just like to shit post

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Akimoto Masato said:

I know it was, I just like to shit post

Your joke was Actually Fine, Mine was stupid...

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Clephas said:

This is just my experience, but most endings that become canon do so after the fact.  Only very rarely is an ending designed from the bottom up to be a canon one in a VN.  About 60% of the time, a 'canon' ending is a non-existent path that merges all of the paths from the original game to some extent (Grisaia did this).  Also, in some cases, an ending will be called canon to specifically deny a sequel being canon.  This is often done to smooth ruffled fan-feathers. 

True endings don't necessarily need to be satisfying (though they should be so, ideally).  They merely must provide a full conclusion to the story, which is their biggest difference from a canon ending, which is essentially an ending that exists to create the pretext for a sequel. 

I feel like a supossedly "Canon end" Also needs to be satisfiying so all the time that you spend with a visual novel feels like It was worth It.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Guest

[Clephas]

2 minutes ago, SeniorBlitz said:

I feel like a supossedly "Canon end" Also needs to be satisfiying so all the time that you spend with a visual novel feels like It was worth It.

I do sympathize.  One of my least-favorite canon endings is the one for Genrin no Kishougun 2, which leads into Ikusa Megami Verita.  The canon ending is not, ironically, the ending portrayed as 'true' in the game.   BIG SPOILERS BELOW

Spoiler

Instead, it is the ending where the protagonist's beloved wife dies, her soul devoured, leaving him with an obsessive desire to resurrect her from the dead that eats at him even as he tries his best to rule the empire after her loss.

In that kind of situation, it is kind of hard to feel satisfaction or even forgive the game-maker for the sin of ruining your joy in the game's ending.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Clephas said:

I do sympathize.  One of my least-favorite canon endings is the one for Genrin no Kishougun 2, which leads into Ikusa Megami Verita.  The canon ending is not, ironically, the ending portrayed as 'true' in the game.   BIG SPOILERS BELOW

  Reveal hidden contents

Instead, it is the ending where the protagonist's beloved wife dies, her soul devoured, leaving him with an obsessive desire to resurrect her from the dead that eats at him even as he tries his best to rule the empire after her loss.

In that kind of situation, it is kind of hard to feel satisfaction or even forgive the game-maker for the sin of ruining your joy in the game's ending.

That's a big downer end, it's somewhat similiar to a End in Silent Hill 2 (Rebirth End) thou... Like in that ending (SPOILERS):

Spoiler

If you collect certain itens and meet certain conditions, the main character James will try to revive his dead wife with a Ritual of some sorts... this is considered one of the two True Ends to the game because fans see this Ending like something James (Aka the Main Character) would do, the other end being the "In Water End".

 

Edited May 6, 2017 by Guest

[Clephas]

Just now, SeniorBlitz said:

That's a big downer end, it's somewhat similiar to a End in Silent Hill 2 (Rebirth End) thou... Like in that ending (SPOILERS):

  Reveal hidden contents

If you collect certain itens and meet certain conditions, the main character James will try to revive his dead wife with a Ritual of some sorts...

 

I probably shouldn't have been shocked when it turned out to be the canon ending, but it was...  the IM universe isn't exactly a kind-hearted one, so the 'good' ending is rarely the 'true history' (canon) ending.  Heck, the true history ending in Verita requires that

Spoiler

the reincarnation of the protagonist's greatest love die at the hands of the very people she served, because she tried to save him, shattering his spirit for the umpteenth time in the series.  Serika just can't get a break... every time he falls in love with someone, something happens to screw it up majorly, stripping him of yet more of his humanity and precious memories.