Shuffle! is coming to Steam!

[trickzzter]

26 minutes ago, Zenophilious said:

Doddler talking about why there won't be a Cartagra hardcopy

Thanks for the link, but it doesn't prove anything. All what he said is that Catagra is a big fail. I'm pretty sure that any Steam release easily exceeds the minimum HC print quantity.

[Nandemonai]

Our source is repeated public statements by MangaGamer employees explicitly and directly confirming that digital copy sales are the primary driver of which titles get hard copies.

Okay, you found a few high-selling titles that haven't got a hard copy.  What does that prove?  Certainly not that 'hard copies have nothing to do with sales numbers' (your exact words).  All you've proved is that the correlation isnt perfect.  Which isn't a surprise, since hard copy releases have to be negotiated seperately, and Minori is fidgety and not quite comfortable with the English market in general.  The fact remains that every single game that has received a hard copy release by MangaGamer, has sold above average for them.

[trickzzter]

59 minutes ago, Nandemonai said:

Okay, you found a few high-selling titles that haven't got a hard copy.  What does that prove?

It proves that his statement was incorrect.

2 hours ago, Zenophilious said:

Check out which of their VNs got hardcopies (NSFW).  AFAIK, MangaGamer includes Steam with their own site's sales as an indication of whether or not they should make hardcopies.  Look which ones haven't gotten them yet.  Their all-ages VNs are selling worse than some of their nukige, with the added benefit of being on two platforms at once.

The main point is that you can't compare sales by hard copy availability.

[VLOCKUP]

Haven't visit this in a while and this happened.

Shuffle PS2 port in Steam? What a steaming pile of bull. Why is this even a headline?

We want Essence+ as everyone else said. This Steam version shall die from obscurity for everyone who have the original before. 2 extra routes is not enough enticement to buy when the full definitive version of Essence+ and Love Rainbow is out there for taking.

[ChaosRaven]

4 hours ago, trickzzter said:

I don't know what is YOUR source, but the fact is that eden* has no hard copy edition.

Eden is a special case because it's from Minori, and they are so paranoid that they seem to insist on an ESRB rating which according to MangaGamer was a real pain in the ass to make for their previous title ef - The fairy tale of the two.

Otherwise, MangaGamer basing their hardcopies on sales of their online copies is so old and basic knowlegde that you must be fairly new to the VN scene not to know it. They mentioned it several times over the years.

The real 'counter example' you are searching for is actually ef - The fairy tale of the two itself. They mentioned several times it sold horribly and still they made a hard copy for it with an ESRB rating. It's the only clear exception from the rule I know of (besides Eden) and I still don't know the reason why they made the exception for it. But MangaGamer's relationship with Minori was always - 'special'. I mean, they were able to force MG to use mosaics in ef, and at AX they even announced a title being translated by MangaGamer without MangaGamer even knowing from it. And don't get me started on this whole fund raiser idea for Supipara.

So yeah, if Minori comes into play, normal MG rules don't apply anymore. You could even say it's a normal MG rule that everything Minori isn't normal, as crazy as that sounds. 

[VLOCKUP]

Wait, so MG is not aware of Trioline will be translated by them at all? That is pretty weird.

 

[ChaosRaven]

37 minutes ago, VLOCKUP said:

Wait, so MG is not aware of Trioline will be translated by them at all? That is pretty weird.

Of course they are aware now, but they weren't on AX. They made a complete blog post about their AX releases without any mention of Trioline, then Minori dropped the bomb and MG hastily added another blog post about that. They also didn't reserve an annoucement placeholder for it on their convention site, which is very unsual.

It was... a 'typical' Minori action - completely unpredictable and weird. 

[yorikbad]

9 hours ago, trickzzter said:

By the way.. Have you seen the sales numbers of Steins;Gates? http://steamspy.com/app/412830

14,144 copies have been sold so far. It's a really old title, that was already released by Just USA. And yet it sells much better than most of new titles released in Japan

Well, it's still lower then early Sakura's games on Steam. For such famous and well-known even outside otaku crowd franchise it's pretty average numbers. And please don't compare these figures to the japanese sales. The VN's there sell strong every month with full price (~90$), while on Steam the biggest sale goes in the first couple of weeks.

It's a matter of fact that Steam miracle for visual novels, both Evns and Jvns, is gone now. That's why MG went from all-age lineup to entirely 18+. That's why SP remembered about Denpasoft and made a deal with Nutaku. It's a matter of money. And while all-age versions on Steam are still selling better then in companie's stores before the bubble, look at Flowers and Nurse Love Addiction numbers (1,552 and 2,587 respectively) or the tragedy of The Labyrinth of Grisaia (2,932).

I know, we can't really trust SteamSpy data, but I believe that the Steam buyers aren't very loyal or knowledgable. The first Grisaya game sold well because of anime, Princess Evangile and Nekopara both sold well because of Youtuber's, Yuri Ghosts sold well becuse of nudity precedent. In the end of the day, what's left is the core audience that could support pricy games if they have H-content. Everybody understand, so why Navel don't. Why is so hard to make all-age version and 18+ patch. It's not like Shuffle has some questionable content that could rise the storm among SJWs. Or maybe it's the first independent try of market for them to see how it'll go. I'm afraid they are too late.

[VLOCKUP]

2 hours ago, ChaosRaven said:

Of course they are aware now, but they weren't on AX. They made a complete blog post about their AX releases without any mention of Trioline, then Minori dropped the bomb and MG hastily added another blog post about that. They also didn't reserve an annoucement placeholder for it on their convention site, which is very unsual.

It was... a 'typical' Minori action - completely unpredictable and weird. 

smh, it's actually a wonder why MG is still stuck with minori though if they pulled unexpected stuffs.

 

[ChaosRaven]

23 minutes ago, VLOCKUP said:

smh, it's actually a wonder why MG is still stuck with minori though if they pulled unexpected stuffs.

In the special relationship of those two, Minori are the tsundere and MangaGamer like a hetare 3.0 protagonist: They just suck everything up and are still begging for more. 

[TexasDice]

How is the japan situation, is Shuffle still popular over there? I would've guessed the novelty wore off after a 10 year long case of "the art didnt age well", but weirder things have happened. 

[Nandemonai]

My guess is that it isn't, if only because of the timing of the various releases.  Before Love Rainbow, there was something new every few years.  But there hasn't been any new Shuffle! since 2011.

[Darklord Rooke]

6 hours ago, yorikbad said:

That's why MG went from all-age lineup to entirely 18+.

... ?

[Zenophilious]

I honestly can't see Shuffle doing too well on Steam.  The art isn't shiny moeblob, from what I've heard the story isn't all that great, and there's no gimmick to attract horny teenagers, a la heaping amounts of fanservice or an 18+ patch.  There's nothing "ironic" to like about it, so I can't see people buying it as a joke for their friends.  I don't know why VN companies think they can recreate Nekopara's success, it's just not going to happen.  If they spent time analyzing why Nekopara made it big while imitations like Corona Blossoms and KARAKARA disappointed their creators' expectations, then they'd see that.  I guess everyone wants a piece of the pie before it's gone, which, amusingly enough, makes the whole process happen faster.

[yorikbad]

2 hours ago, Rooke said:

... ?

Is my English so bad? I'm sorry. I was trying to say that the previous Mangagamer lineup contained many "Steam ready" titles like The Fata Morgana, Tokyo Babel, The Gakhtun, Supipara and all of them behaved poorly in sales this year.

[Darklord Rooke]

9 hours ago, yorikbad said:

Is my English so bad? I'm sorry. I was trying to say that the previous Mangagamer lineup contained many "Steam ready" titles like The Fata Morgana, Tokyo Babel, The Gakhtun, Supipara and all of them behaved poorly in sales this year.

1 - 'Many' is relative. Relative to '0' sure, they have had 'many' all-ages releases. Relative to the actual number of games they put out - no, they don't put out 'many' all-age releases. 

2 - The releases announced this year at the various cons would have been organised BEFORE the success or failure of Fata and others would have been known. So the relationship between the number of 18+ titles and the success or failure of their all-age line up is suspect.

3 - MG's line up always has been, and always will be dominated by 18+ stuff. Anyone thinking their all-ages venture was a serious shift in company direction was taking wild mental leaps into the unknown. Tokyo Babel was suggested by Conjuror and Supipara was probably suggested by Minori (a project that isn't doing well in Japan either I believe.) MG has been listening to the titles their translators have wanted to translate. Gahkthun was likely something Koestl wanted to translate and MG got the license. That being said, MG has wanted to, and has made an effort, into branching into serious story related stuff. They didn't like their NukigeGamer tag, and they're in the financial position where they could choose riskier titles. Still don't see a 'focus' on all-age stuff, although I do see more variety in their line-up.

Hence the question mark. It meant 'what are you basing your statement on'?

 

Also Gahkthun isn't all ages.

[yorikbad]

5 hours ago, Rooke said:

1 - 'Many' is relative. Relative to '0' sure, they have had 'many' all-ages releases. Relative to the actual number of games they put out - no, they don't put out 'many' all-age releases. 

Steam Ready titles. My mistake was to emphasize on all age tag.

5 hours ago, Rooke said:

2 - The releases announced this year at the various cons would have been organised BEFORE the success or failure of Fata and others would have been known. So the relationship between the number of 18+ titles and the success or failure of their all-age line up is suspect.

In case of Fata Morgana Fan Disc it's true. But I can compare MG Anime Expo 2015 and 2016 announcements and clearly see the drifting towards 18+ releases. They don't abandon Steam but they and Sekai are adapting to the new reality.

5 hours ago, Rooke said:

3 - MG's line up always has been, and always will be dominated by 18+ stuff. Anyone thinking their all-ages venture was a serious shift in company direction was taking wild mental leaps into the unknown. Tokyo Babel was suggested by Conjuror and Supipara was probably suggested by Minori (a project that isn't doing well in Japan either I believe.) MG has been listening to the titles their translators have wanted to translate. Gahkthun was likely something Koestl wanted to translate and MG got the license. That being said, MG has wanted to, and has made an effort, into branching into serious story related stuff. They didn't like their NukigeGamer tag, and they're in the financial position where they could choose riskier titles. Still don't see a 'focus' on all-age stuff, although I do see more variety in their line-up.

I know Good Haro mentioned how exactly MG managmet choose their next titles. The translator's opinion is relevant but it is not the final word in making decision. There are also business expectations from the western market.

5 hours ago, Rooke said:

Hence the question mark. It meant 'what are you basing your statement on'?

I am basing it on sale's figures and changes in MG and SP policies. 

5 hours ago, Rooke said:

Also Gahkthun isn't all ages.

Technically it's not, but game's H-scenes are subpar at best and very tame.

 

I understand, that a story title doesn't always means all-age But it wasn't my point to begin with. I just don't see how Navel can succeed with the PS2 version Shuffle on Steam. They have better chance with MG or DenpaSoft, or even Nutaku.

[Darklord Rooke]

38 minutes ago, yorikbad said:

In case of Fata Morgana Fan Disc it's true. But I can compare MG Anime Expo 2015 and 2016 announcements and clearly see the drifting towards 18+ releases. They don't abandon Steam but they and Sekai are adapting to the new reality.

 

It's a named logical fallacy -> an event that followed a previous event must automatically have been CAUSED by that event.

Localising titles is a slow process. A VERY slow process when Japanese companies are involved. The idea that MG were able to completely shift company direction and license a bunch of titles completely different from last years in a matter of months is something I would like confirmation over, because it goes against people's general observations of the licensing process.

[Ariurotl]

MG's output has always maintained a fairly consistent ratio of nukige v. non-nukige, I don't know where people get the idea that they changed their focus one way or another at any point. There was one big con a few years ago where they announced nothing but nukige and got a lot of flak for it, but it was just an unfortunate coincidence (and admittedly, a shockingly bad PR decision).

[yorikbad]

19 minutes ago, Rooke said:

Localising titles is a slow process. A VERY slow process when Japanese companies are involved. The idea that MG were able to shift company direction in a matter of months and produce a bunch of titles completely different from last years bunch of titles is something I would like confirmation over, because it goes against people's general observation.

For some titles it is slow, it depends on negotiations. And it wasn't a matter of months but more then a year if you consider the time before the actual announcements. I think that if the Steam decline would not have happened we could see a slightly different line of games at the Anime Expo or Otacon. I have no doubt that the company is hiding in a secret other things that it is too early to talk about.

11 minutes ago, Ariurotl said:

MG's output has always maintained a fairly consistent ratio of nukige v. non-nukige, I don't know where people get the idea that they changed their focus one way or another at any point. There was one big con a few years ago where they announced nothing but nukige and got a lot of flak for it, but it was just an unfortunate coincidence (and admittedly, a shockingly bad PR decision).

The major change has happened after the ridiculous success of Go! Go! Nippon! ~My First Trip to Japan~ in early 2014.

[Darklord Rooke]

10 minutes ago, yorikbad said:

And it wasn't a matter of months but more then a year if you consider the time before the actual announcements.

Fata Morgana released in May
Supipara released a couple of months ago
Babel released in March

And that's not taking into consideration that titles would have been licensed a while before they were announced. And also that there's a difference between Japanese and English industries, in that products in the English market have a long tail (that is sell continuously years after they were released compared to the Japanese market where most of the product is sold in the first month.) Because of this long tail they can't start analysing to much later.

And when you take all this into account, there's almost zero time for Mangagamer to shift direction.

[yorikbad]

1 minute ago, Rooke said:

And also that there's a difference between Japanese and English industries, in that products in the English market have a long tail (that is sell continuously years after they were released compared to the Japanese market where most of the product is sold in the first month.) Because of this long tale they can't start analysing to much later.

Also, the prices are different. In Japan we have 70 - 90$ and here is 45$ for the most expensive games. I see a logic in your arguments but I will stay with my belief for now.

[Ariurotl]

1 hour ago, yorikbad said:

The major change has happened after the ridiculous success of Go! Go! Nippon! ~My First Trip to Japan~ in early 2014.

I disagree. While it did cause MG to pay more attention to Steam, I don't see any evidence of that fact influencing their choice of localizations. It did cause the estimable Bamboo to wake up from his poor-sales-induced slumber and pay attention to the West a bit more over the following few months (before he apparently cooled down again), but that was it. MG still license cheap nukige, various moege and story-focused stuff. Some of it gets on Steam, some of it doesn't, but the core ratio is largely the same.

[solidbatman]

stop picking on Fata Morgana 

[VLOCKUP]

1 hour ago, Ariurotl said:

I disagree. While it did cause MG to pay more attention to Steam, I don't see any evidence of that fact influencing their choice of localizations. It did cause the estimable Bamboo to wake up from his poor-sales-induced slumber and pay attention to the West a bit more over the following few months (before he apparently cooled down again), but that was it. MG still license cheap nukige, various moege and story-focused stuff. Some of it gets on Steam, some of it doesn't, but the core ratio is largely the same.

Yup, still same formula. I don't mind that much but they are taking more risk than before(ie. Not sticking with nukige much). Still waiting for SKM(which will be their biggest risk if they ever get it).

So Overdrive is now on cooldown drive? I haven't heard much of it after Green Green remaster. And GGN but eh, I'm talking about new IP.