AdventSign
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Posts posted by AdventSign
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To be honest, there's not too much up front. If there's usually drama, it's usually behind the scenes.
My advice: don't go looking for it and nod your head up and down when somebody is telling you stuff, but try not to take sides.
A lot of the times when people say shit, it's because they've felt wronged or treated unfairly and just want to vent.
Don't be me and be a jack ass. Sarcasm doesn't go too well in arguments and I'm pretty bad when it comes to dumb and pointless fights.
You'll be disliked quite quickly.
There will always be people who don't like others for one reason or another. Doesn't mean you need to not like those same people.
Everyone is pretty civil on here either way and most of the times are friendly. Even fights on here are usually short lived. All in all, it's one of the better communities.
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3 hours ago, littleshogun said:
Considering that kepposhi's not normal humor and behavior, safe to say that Japanese people were really angry with that. So much that the Erogamescape average score for this VN was at 46, something that shouldn't be possible with this unique VN here. I like to think that Kepposhi here was probably realized that his joke was unacceptable within Japanese people, so hopefully he'd able to control his joke there a bit.
PS - By the way, I still wouldn't care much about the mosaic lol.
"Normal"... What is nowadays? What the majority says it is?
Hey, if he's treating Meru kindly and everyone is getting along, who cares? People change, for better or for worse. Hopefully it's for the better though. Give the guy a chance, aye? Seems like this'll be a good project to keep an eye on and fund. Lots of things to look forward to.
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Hmmm... that's an interesting way of thinking.
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So what you're telling me is...
There's no Kickstarter? Wtf. -
I told her. She thought it was porn until we read a VN together (that was plot focused of course). She changed her tune and helps me once in a while with editing. Getting your significant other involved with your work once in a while can actually help increase your intimacy in a relationship. As long as you aren't stupid and get her involved in guro or something like that.
Some people aren't as open-minded as my girlfriend though, so use discretion when deciding whether or not to tell a girlfriend/boyfriend this.
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I really hope you aren't going to edit based off of that translated English. It's possible, but it's extremely likely that it'll be nowhere close to the original meanings of the Japanese version. It wouldn't do the VN (or any VN for that matter) justice. I can't stop you if you're seriously going through with it, but be warned that you'll be handicapped from the get go without a "better" translation. I made the mistake of editing something as bad as that, and it turned out horribly. It's important to know your limitations and when to get up and walk away from something.
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Well, I'm glad the salty tears have gone away. I'm not to let a mistake or two or honorifics get in the way of a decent VN, so I never understood what people were trying to prove.
It's an interesting surgery and despite the shit storm that came after, I really hope you continue to do more surveys. I enjoy hearing from others in the community about their opinions and values.
Anyways, gonna jerk off to badly tled hentai in a VN. Peace out.
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RIP translators. They shall be missed.
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3 hours ago, MayoeruHitori said:
All the comments about the the imperfections of polling are quite interesting, and it's nice of @Toranth to provide rational input.
On the topic of honorifics, what @HonorificsSurvey said about how newcomers tend to be least opposed to honorifics surprised me. I always had the impression that since the number of official localizations exploded a few years ago, and official localizations tend to avoid honorifics, newbies wouldn't be as used to honorifics as older fans. Looks like that's not the case.
Now that I think about it, there are potentially multiple reasons that VNs fans tend to care more about honorifics.
- VNs focus relatively more on interpersonal relationships and school life, where honorifics are more meaningful (compared to, say, a slapstick action story).
- VNs let you replay voiced lines if you didn't hear them properly, and click at your own pace to hear them properly, so it's easier for players to pick up on the honorifics.
- Unlike manga which isn't voiced and anime which people are often introduced to via television dubs, VNs as a medium emphasize voiced lines, which contain honorifics for Japanese VNs.
- Also, as was said earlier and @TheCrimsonFucker echoed, the more a person becomes acquainted with Japanese, the more it tend to feel odd when they read a non-literal translation. They pick up on the nuance attached to specific names & words that aren't particles which can be recognized audibly. And as @HonorificsSurvey said, people who play VNs often have experience with voiced anime (and manga which sometimes notes honorifics, esp. scanlations).
So yeah, I'm starting to see a lot of reasons why many VN fans' desire to welcome honorifics won't change easily, even if they're absent from many localizations and many translators swear off them.
People like @AdventSign talk about a war over honorifics, but as far as I can tell, everything has completely settled down:
- For the above reasons and probably others, most VN fans tend to prefer honorifics. I don't think you can change their minds if they already know what honorifics are and attached importance to them. You'd essentially have to convince them that Japanese culture isn't important. Or change the demographics of fans of Japanese VNs through marketing (didn't turn out well for MoeNovel).
- On the other hand, the localization side is firmly opposed to honorifics. There are big ego wars over perceived translation quality on Twitter, and translators know that it's frowned upon to include honorifics instead of trying to finding various ways of conveying them differently (or not at all) which is the traditional in the prideful professional translation industry. In addition, localization companies probably think that they can market their products to a broader audience when VN translations are non-idiosyncratic and remove honorifics. I don't think you can change their minds either, since they're doing what they think is right.
Although @sanahtlig pointed out already that it would've been a little interesting to survey whether people would refuse to play a VN with or without honorifics, I'm personally glad that this survey asked what people think, instead of just asking what they're willing to tolerate in their purchases. Questions along the lines of the latter are something we already get enough of from localization companies' surveys. And I think it's probably not necessary either, because like I said earlier, my impression is that most localizations these days don't have honorifics, and people just tolerate it. (Or does anyone disagree with this?) So honestly, the bottom line is that fans might be a little happier if more localizations included honorifics, but since it's not a do-or-die issue for them, many translators will continue to shy away from honorifics.
I was partially being sarcastic, though some people make a mountain out of a molehill though, whether to cause shit or to actually argue their point because they HAVE to be right and there HAS to be rules in place for everything or something...
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Dun worry bois. We got sum meet pros on teh project ur lukin 4.
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Just now, MayoeruHitori said:
I don't understand, why isn't this poll representative? Where are the VN fans if not in the communities that the pollster here surveyed?
Don't even bother asking. I'm not trolling either.
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The war of honorifics continues to rage on...
Will an agreement ever be reached? Will the salt from men and women's delicious tears ever stop? Will weebs finally rise up and refuse to be weebs and show the veterans their final form? Find out on the next episode of Dragon Ball Z!
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Just now, 1P1A said:
Hopefully he's referring to sprites where the transitions are animated. School Days is basically just an subbed anime that you progress by clicking IIRC.
Ah. Probably not in my lifetime. Expenses would be sky high. RIP.
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15 minutes ago, PiggiesGoMoo said:
I think VN's will get more and more animation as the market develops, which will help. Eventually I even think that the standard practice of reusing sprites will become a dated feature of VNs, and they will have more animation instead. I say this because I think people put a lot of value on the visuals of VN's, and there are definitely companies that have improved their standards over the years. Like anime, at a certain point the quality will be high enough to where it will break into a western audience.
That'd be pretty cool actually. You talking about taking School Days game play and making it standard across the board?
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On 7/20/2018 at 11:36 PM, Nandemonai said:
It certainly is not. Kickstarters are a pain in the ass to set up, requiring months of work to line up. We know this because of how long elapses between when companies announce they're going to do a Kickstarter and/or when the Prefundia goes up, and when the Kick actually Starts. Just because you don't see them doing that work in public doesn't mean they're not busy bees. Don't be Mr. PHB.
What are they doing? They're figuring out what their budget is going to be. That tells them how much money they need to ask for. Who's going to translate the game and for how much money? What's it going to cost us to get rights to the voices? How much trouble do we expect from the engine? Are we likely to need 1 dev for 3 months tops for a few minor changes, or a major overhaul involving a whole team for the better part of a year?
And they're trying to nail down stretch goals. What can we offer as a stretch goal?
If it's merchandise, you have to estimate how much it's going to cost for shipping or you end up losing money on every pledge. Do you have piles of unsold merch laying around that you want to try to get rid of? If you're going to offer new merch, do you make it before the KS and risk ending up with piles of unsold merch that you need to get rid of? Or do you only produce what's actually demanded from the KS (plus some extra for lost or damaged merchandise)? How long a lead time will that take, who are you going to order it from, how much is it going to cost, and what's the minimum print run?
If it's extra content or added features for the game, there are similar problems scoping and sizing all of that. Is this bonus content something that's easy enough for us to do? How much do we think it will cost us to do the extra work versus how much extra money do we think we can ask for? Can we even get the voice actors back into a studio? Is the writer interested in writing that extra scenario, and are they available?
In other words, to do a Kickstarter right involves a whole lot of pre-planning work up front to scope out exactly what you think you can do, and what it's going to cost you to do it. That work is not free; it's money spent and time not available for other things. All in the hope that your project might get funded. Try to skimp on this, and you can easily end up with a successfully-funded project badly in the red because you're on the hook for a bunch of obligations the Kickstarter did not bring in enough money to cover.
And that's not even including the giant pain in the ass that are Kickstarter projects that get delayed. How long did it take Sekai Project to deliver on all their Grisaia promises? I believe the physical rewards shipped in April. 2 and a half years after the projected date. The Kickstarter has 75 updates. As someone who's had to prepare similar updates before, I guarantee many of those updates took hours to prepare, in terms of meetings and follow up to gather the info contained in them.
Oh. Guess I hit a nerve. You're right. That is as long as people follow through with their promises. Otherwise, it's nothing more than an essay written on Kickstarter for dem $$$.
Over-saturation. I guess the one thing I'm guilty of, as with you, is overgeneralizing. Ever heard of people promising the world, only to suddenly vanish? Some *honest* people that *try*... Yeah, it's hard work. Not everybody is like that though. Some people charge a *bit* more than they need, or cut corners to make an extra buck or two.
Just because you wouldn't abuse it doesn't mean others wouldn't. People have been burned by Kickstarter before, just like projects have been saved.
Despite all this though, I do owe you an apology, as do I to the honest companies/people that actually do use, especially since the not so honest people I'm talking about are mostly outside of the VN market. Sorry for generalizing and stereotyping you guys and thanks for putting me in my place.
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11 hours ago, Hetzer123 said:
More like crowd funding pre-order because they offer reward depends on how much you pledge. (although you can pledge without rewards)
It seems localization companies use different ways of funding. Like MG use nukige while SP use KS.
Sometimes steam indirectly promote the VN when the timing is right. Localization companies should also promote on non-English platform (I heard 9tail's Venus Blood promotion on weibo/bilibili) along with CN translation.
That was sarcasm. Kinda. There are people who abuse it, but there are others who need it. I generally support projects that already have work done on them, such as a demo. Someway to show that there committed and have exhausted all other avenues of generating revenue.
Kickstarter is a quick and easy way to get money, but I question large companies that use them on a constant basis when they can take more risks and have more experience than one that are just starting out.
Recently, it seems like Kickstarter is almost like a step in a product's means to generate money rather than a last ditch effort to get things done.
Promoting can be done outside of Kickstarter. When larger companies use Kickstarter, it's saturating the already crowded market, which means people starting off will be less visible.
Which is why I generally don't kickstart Sekai Project. I'd rather pledge money to small companies or companies trying to make a mark in the western market and are taking a major risk with little reputation in it, such as Venus Blood. Kickstarter is meant for those guys.
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13 minutes ago, Nandemonai said:
Incredibly nitty nitpick: honorifics are not completely alien in English. We actually have an almost identical concept. It's just that it's such a small part of the language that it's almost died out, because the situations that spawned it relate to social structures that basically haven't existed for hundreds of years; whereas in Japan it's still highly relevant to daily life.
When you're in court, what do you call the judge? Your honor. The judge is introduced as The honorable so-and-so. And it is always only for other people. Consider this classic Three Stooges bit. Why is it funny? Because everyone knows that you call a judge your honor to show proper respect, and you certainly never call them "Mister Court". And because the very idea of anyone using this form of address as My honor is inherently ridiculous. No judge ever refers to him or her self as my honor. It simply is not done. They always refer to themselves in an impersonal way as the court.
Likewise, when was the last time any Pope ever referred to himself as My Holiness? Does the Queen of England refer to herself as My Majesty? Certainly not. That's what the royal we is for; it is a humbling form of address, implying it isn't even really a person talking but a mouthpiece on behalf of the nation itself.
Now, honorifics in Japanese indicate precise levels of respect and/or familiarity between the speaker and whoever they're referring to. Not adding one when you need to, or using an overly informal one, is insulting. When you get right down to it, forms of address like Your Grace are almost exactly the same in English in this respect as honorifics in Japanese, and they're even often combined with the individual's name in a very similar way. Someone who is entitled to be called Your Grace will be very put out if you don't do it. And while today, very few people could tell you the precise difference between Your Grace and Your Excellency, that did not used to be the case.
They're not exactly the same: It is more common in English to use the honorific alone, because usually when you need one, it's unambiguous who it refers to. But if there happens to be more than one judge in the room, you fall back to Judge So-and-so which is even more like an honorific.
So yes, English actually has honorifics. They're like the appendix of English; basically useless, but still technically there. So unimportant that most people wouldn't even recognize that that's what it is. (Hell, for years I would have said we didn't have honorifics.)
People are probably going to argue that it's not the same, but you're right on that. Never thought of it that way, but it isn't alien at all and at times is mixed into other things, such as Mr and Mrs or Sir and Madam. Your example and insight is pretty dead on. Well, I learned something from this thread at least.
People are quick to point out "official rules" and alienate ideas or things that are out of the norm to them and though I don't mind them doing so, it's not exactly true saying to "take them out unless you have to." The higher up you go and the more rules that are pushed on you, the more critical and judgmental people will be of other's work with the "rules" you know. Sadly, it seems to have happened to quite a bit of people on this thread, some of which are quite salty.
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4 hours ago, Hetzer123 said:
You forgot to mention about kickstarter for localization companies.
Kickstarter is a place where people go to donate money to the poor and those who "need" it, like a church.
But I guess fundamentally I guess it's a place to get people to know a VN, though I get the same experience shopping in JAST's shop, except you can be more descriptive.
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1 hour ago, Silvz said:
I'm watching this new anime about the body cells, where every character is either a red blood cell or a white ones. One of these red cells calls the other "senpai", and since they don't have different names, how would it be a good way to translate it without using "senpai"?
What makes me cringe the most is not using or not using honorifics, but when the translator uses "miss" or "mr." every time someone uses "-san", even if it is between two friends. Nobody does that in real life, right?
In school, we had to use Mr or Mrs, so I guess it could work for teachers.
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Guess not. </3
The never-ending war between honorifics and non honorifics continues to rage on and rustle people's jimmies daily with the salt and rage of dozens of men and women alike.
I have failed in providing world peace here at Fuwanovel. Mods, Admins, and God, forgive me for being unable to accomplish such a simple task. -
Best you can do is go on majority. Not because everyone else is doing it or because it's right or wrong. Its about making it as accessible to as many readers as possible. How to do that has changed over the years. People find things distracting when they didn't used to be years ago because it's what we've gotten used to and call abnormalities or things that don't look or sound right cancerous and distracting and people are going to inevitably say they are because "insert reason here." That's the long and short of it. Some people have trouble processing things that are out of the norm for them which I don't hold against them, but it's not really fair to say that something is wrong purely because of that, right? It was never because official companies are doing it or because it's better with it out. Can we all agree on that at least? <3
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According to Aaeru, download an English patch and pirate the VNs.
According to localization companies, donate money to them by paying for nukige so they can translate more nukige (and a long, story driven VN once in a while.)
According to common sense, share games via YouTube and word of mouth without seeming like a shill for the company who is translating a VN (that part is very important and some people forget this.)
Take your pick.
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34 minutes ago, Kiriririri said:
Tbh I don't mind what people think about this, everyone can have their own preference about this, readers and translators.
Fantranslators can do what they think is the best but however, I believe that official translators who get paid to do this should remove honorifics because that is what their job is about.
I believe that they can do what they want. There's no official rulebook for having them in or out other than having "official work" which is a shoddy excuse to prove a point. Translations can be good with them in and bad with them out. I'm paying "official companies" to translate a VN into a story that I can understand and enjoy with as little "distractions" in general (which vary from person to person.)
To each his own, but just because people that are "professionals" do it doesn't make it the end all be all golden standard, as much as people want it to be.
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Damn, the salt and burn in this thread makes me wish I carried a burn heal, along with some popcorn. Lazy? Grow up? Bad translators don't remove them? Heh. I got a happy meal for ya guys. Maybe it'll cheer y'all up and get rid of the QQ going around. <3
On topic. I used to not care, but it "feels" more "natural" without them the more I've read VNs.
- Plk_Lesiak and Ramaladni
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Playing VNs on Linux?
in Members' Lounge
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How stable is Linux for running VNs (especially older ones like Yu-No)?