crunchytaco Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Inspired by What Defines a Human. Do we have free will, or is it all predetermined by the neurons firing in our brains? The split brain experiment (Chart below) shows that rather than making choices, we look back on our actions and rationalize them in our mind why we did them. It's like watching a movie and explaining it to ourselves rather than being involved in directing it. What do you guys think? An Experiment with a Split-Brain Subject (The Corpus Callosum has been severed, a treatment for epilepsy) The left brain dominates for language, speech, and problem solving The right brain dominates for visual-motor tasks 1. Each hemisphere was presented a picture that related to one of four cards placed in front of the split-brain subject. The right hemisphere saw the picture on the left (a snow scene), and the left hemisphere saw the picture on the right (a chicken foot). Both hemispheres could see all of the cards. 2. The left and right hemispheres easily picked the card that related to the picture it saw. The left hand pointed to the right hemisphere's choice, and the right hand pointed to the left hemisphere's choice. 3. The patient was then asked why the left hand was pointing to the shovel. Only the left hemisphere can talk, and it did not know the answer because the decision to point to the shovel was made in the right hemisphere. 4. Immediately the left hemisphere made up a story about what it could see --- the chicken. It said the right hemisphere chose the shovel to clean out a chicken shed. This reveals the left brain's interpreter in action. Source: Gazzaniga, Michael S., "The Split Brain Revisited," Scientific American, July 1998 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I think it's decided by neurons in our brain, but I would still classify that as being free will. Since what makes up your brain is, well, a part of you as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flutterz Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 free will noun 1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. Do I win? Ayana, Chewy and Yeah Way 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurisu-Chan Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 If you want a good philosohic point of view about free will, Jean-Paul Sartre's vision is extremely interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nohman Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I've always sort of fell on the deterministic side of things. Life is like a snowball. All of our decisions and responses are predicated on the information and experiences that preceded them. We have the illusion of free will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Major Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 free will noun 1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. Do I win? Yep. That's about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Meogii Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 free will noun 1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. Do I win? 10 Points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crunchytaco Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 I think it's decided by neurons in our brain, but I would still classify that as being free will. Since what makes up your brain is, well, a part of you as well. Shiro neko. I haven't heard it described that way before. By definition, all animals must have free will as well? If you want a good philosohic point of view about free will, Jean-Paul Sartre's vision is extremely interesting. Please share. I read some of his work on existentialism more than a decade ago and remember I used to be afraid of dying in a car crash every time I stepped in one. free will noun 1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. Do I win? If it was determined ahead of time upon the universe's beginning; and basing upon the laws of cause and effect, would you say sitting here right now is a result of free will still? Most scientific time travel theories are related to this (if you believe in this sort of thing.) In Steins;Gate for example (an extreme example), because of causality, Rintarou had to watch Mayuri die over and over again without being able to directly change it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okami Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I think we have a possibility of free will, whoever I don't think that all our choices are made by free will. For example if we just made some choice without to much thinking then we made that choice on a whim or to explain it better we let our subconscious made that choice for us. After that we come in situation like crunchytaco said that we look back on our actions and rationalize them in our mind why we did them. But if before making choice we stop for a moment to really think about it then we can make a choice with our free will based on our opinions regarding a mater at hand. So yes I say we do have a free will but no not all of our choices are made by our free will. That doesn't mean that the choices we didn't choose by our free will are made by some kinda of fate or anything like that they are still made by our brain we just didn't make them consciously witch is why it could be said that we haven't made them by our free will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Gaah... I only talked about this the other day. Our universe is governed by the laws of physics. Even in another universe, if the way it began is the same as our one did, the same events would occur leading to the decision. At the decision, if everything in the past had been the same then it is only possible to make the same decision because your brain was subjected to the same stimuli. Decisions aside, the only way anything can be different if there was a slight deviation in the way the universe started. If not, then nothing would change from that point onward. Therefore, yes you definitely do have free will because the concept of fate is based on a supernatural force acting from outside the universe and influences outcomes. There isn't anything holding you back from making any type of thought. However everything was predetermined from the point you were born simply because your mind decided on making those decisions based on the stimuli you had since birth. The laws of physics will only allow such. Time travel has always been an iffy topic. I shall not delve into the physics of it but if you do go back in space and time only, then you will experience the same thing occurring. Nothing would change because you already did the stuff you did when you went back in time. You will make no difference as the you already traveled back and made the same changes you did to the timeline. In the end it will result in no overall change. However you can only influence anything and change anything if it was another universe. To that universe, you were going to enter it anyway so the change would occur regardless but to yourself, it would feel as though something had changed because of you. Well that is my theory at least. tl;dr Everything is predetermined but free will still exists. Universes that start the same will have the same results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okami Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Gaah... I only talked about this the other day. Our universe is governed by the laws of physics. Even in another universe, if the way it began is the same as our one did, the same events would occur leading to the decision. At the decision, if everything in the past had been the same then it is only possible to make the same decision because your brain was subjected to the same stimuli. Decisions aside, the only way anything can be different if there was a slight deviation in the way the universe started. If not, then nothing would change from that point onward. Therefore, yes you definitely do have free will because the concept of fate is based on a supernatural force acting from outside the universe and influences outcomes. There isn't anything holding you back from making any type of thought. However everything was predetermined from the point you were born simply because your mind decided on making those decisions based on the stimuli you had since birth. The laws of physics will only allow such. Time travel has always been an iffy topic. I shall not delve into the physics of it but if you do go back in space and time only, then you will experience the same thing occurring. Nothing would change because you already did the stuff you did when you went back in time. You will make no difference as the you already traveled back and made the same changes you did to the timeline. In the end it will result in no overall change. However you can only influence anything and change anything if it was another universe. To that universe, you were going to enter it anyway so the change would occur regardless but to yourself, it would feel as though something had changed because of you. Well that is my theory at least. tl;dr Everything is predetermined but free will still exists. Universes that start the same will have the same results. You are terribly wrong and science has already proven that. If you don't believe in a god choosing your fate since birth then noting is predetermined, even if two people live exactly the same life from the day of birth they won't come to the same decision once they have a choice, our brain being subjected to the same stimuli doesn't make as a same person, there ware an experiments like that before and they proven that situations surrounding our lives are only part of who we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crunchytaco Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 I appreciate the answers everyone is giving. The reason I made this is because several people mentioned the difference between man and animal is our ability to have free will. What if it's shown that we don't have free will; or that what we believe is free will is also shared with animals? Discussing it under Shiro's thread would completely derail it however. Gaah... I only talked about this the other day. Our universe is governed by the laws of physics. Even in another universe, if the way it began is the same as our one did, the same events would occur leading to the decision. At the decision, if everything in the past had been the same then it is only possible to make the same decision because your brain was subjected to the same stimuli. Decisions aside, the only way anything can be different if there was a slight deviation in the way the universe started. If not, then nothing would change from that point onward. Therefore, yes you definitely do have free will because the concept of fate is based on a supernatural force acting from outside the universe and influences outcomes. There isn't anything holding you back from making any type of thought. However everything was predetermined from the point you were born simply because your mind decided on making those decisions based on the stimuli you had since birth. The laws of physics will only allow such. Time travel has always been an iffy topic. I shall not delve into the physics of it but if you do go back in space and time only, then you will experience the same thing occurring. Nothing would change because you already did the stuff you did when you went back in time. You will make no difference as the you already traveled back and made the same changes you did to the timeline. In the end it will result in no overall change. However you can only influence anything and change anything if it was another universe. To that universe, you were going to enter it anyway so the change would occur regardless but to yourself, it would feel as though something had changed because of you. Well that is my theory at least. tl;dr Everything is predetermined but free will still exists. Universes that start the same will have the same results. In the past we used Fatalism to determine our future. Gradually we started phasing out fatalism and replacing it with determinism. The means might have changed, but is the end not the same? Fatalism not involved the other part of free will is also the ability to simply choose in a situation. You posit that our actions are determined since the birth of the universe. Therefore we will always come to decision A when the times come, even though choices B and C appear before us. If it's decided ahead of time for us, wouldn't our free will be therefore just our illusion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okami Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I appreciate the answers everyone is giving. The reason I made this is because several people mentioned the difference between man and animal is our ability to have free will. What if it's shown that we don't have free will; or that what we believe is free will is also shared with animals? Discussing it under Shiro's thread would completely derail it however. The only real difference between human and animal is that humans have intelligence, and like I said in that topic even true some people choose not use that intelligence and fallow their instincts instead and are no better then animals they are still humans because of their biology. Free will is something only those with intelligence can have because you need an intelligence in order to make a choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okami Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I don't believe there's such a thing as real free will. Every action one takes is determine by natural biological needs (hunger, sleep, sex, etc), while the rest is determined by genetics, environment, upbringing, and a whole variety of other factors. Really if one thinks about it, they don't have much control in the grand scheme of the Universe. That's the kind of people I was referring to when I talked about those that don't use intelligence but just fallow instincts. In order to have a free will you have to have intelligence and to use it, if you just fallow you instincts then you are the same as animal that doesn't have a free will or intelligence and just fallows it's instincts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okami Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Alright, don't ever eat again, don't sleep, and abstain from having any kind of sex. Tell me how that works out for you. I don't have any kind of sex, sex is unnecessary instinct and I have intelligence to not do unnecessary things just because my instincts tells me to and while I have to eat and sleep I don't consider those things to be so important and I don't resolve my life around them. That's a difference between human and animals, animals don't have intelligence so they don't have a free will to chose to go against their instincts and following their instincts and satisfying them is the only thing in their life they can do. Humans have intelligence so they can tell what is necessary for them to sustain their bodies and what is not and they do things that are necessary not because their instincts tell them too but because their intelligence say that they have too but they don't have to do things that are unnecessary even if their instincts tell them to and they don't put much importance on doing those necessary things. People who not just do those unnecessary things that their instincts tell them to (Like sex) but also put a great significance and devote a big part of their life to it are those that don't use their intelligence but live for their instincts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flutterz Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 If it was determined ahead of time upon the universe's beginning; and basing upon the laws of cause and effect, would you say sitting here right now is a result of free will still? Most scientific time travel theories are related to this (if you believe in this sort of thing.) In Steins;Gate for example (an extreme example), because of causality, Rintarou had to watch Mayuri die over and over again without being able to directly change it. tl;dr Everything is predetermined but free will still exists. Universes that start the same will have the same results. If everything were predetermined that wouldn't be free will since any choice you "make" was made for you 13 billion years ago. Thankfully quantum mechanics seem to cast quite a bit of doubt on the possibility of everything being predetermined. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism#Quantum_realm I don't have any kind of sex, sex is unnecessary instinct and I have intelligence to not do unnecessary things just because my instincts tells me to and while I have to eat and sleep I don't consider those things to be so important and I don't resolve my life around them. That's a difference between human and animals, animals don't have intelligence so they don't have a free will to chose to go against their instincts and following their instincts and satisfying them is the only thing in their life they can do. Humans have intelligence so they can tell what is necessary for them to sustain their bodies and what is not and they do things that are necessary not because their instincts tell them too but because their intelligence say that they have too but they don't have to do things that are unnecessary even if their instincts tell them to and they don't put much importance on doing those necessary things. People who not just do those unnecessary things that their instincts tell them to (Like sex) but also put a great significance and devote a big part of their life to it are those that don't use their intelligence but live for their instincts. Almost everything people do is unnecessary. Why study in school when you can just eat, sleep, and shit (the few things that are necessary)? Why look for a job if you can just be a beggar on the street, get given a bit of money to eat, and be able to sleep and shit wherever you want to? Why go on the internet to chat on forums? None of those things are necessary, but people still do them because they make their lives better, more enjoyable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewy Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I appreciate the answers everyone is giving. The reason I made this is because several people mentioned the difference between man and animal is our ability to have free will. What if it's shown that we don't have free will; or that what we believe is free will is also shared with animals? Discussing it under Shiro's thread would completely derail it however. Mate technically speaking, we are animals so obviously we arent any different from what we classify as 'animals'. We just happened to evolve a lot more and also we have invented a lot of things to help us in life and loosen our load. We still are animals though even if we can teleport or become invincible. Therefore, the "difference between humans and animals" being free will isnt true. Either both us and animals have free will or we all dont. I believe, like some people have already stated that we dont have free will, when we think and rationalise but things like whims and instinct I believe are free will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crunchytaco Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 The only real difference between human and animal is that humans have intelligence, and like I said in that topic even true some people choose not use that intelligence and fallow their instincts instead and are no better then animals they are still humans because of their biology. Free will is something only those with intelligence can have because you need an intelligence in order to make a choice. Hrm, what do you make of a dog who refuses to listen to its owner's commands? Shiba Inus are notorious for snubbing their owners despite understanding everything their owner is saying. If everything were predetermined that wouldn't be free will since any choice you "make" was made for you 13 billion years ago. Thankfully quantum mechanics seem to cast quite a bit of doubt on the possibility of everything being predetermined. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism#Quantum_realm "On one hand, if determinism is true, all our actions are predicted and we are assumed not to be free; on the other hand, if determinism is false, our actions are presumed to be random and as such we do not seem free because we had no part in controlling what happened." - your link I was thinking just that before I clicked the link and saw that there. Once you go smaller than atomic particles, the world down there becomes unpredictable. Photon particles behave differently when it's being directly observed vs. left alone. I'm not sure if I would describe this as a phenomenon though. It's random in the sense that we lack the means to predict it, but if we can get close enough and figure out the probability of an outcome (e.g. the sum chances of pulling each poker hand consistently) would it still be considered random? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okami Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Almost everything people do is unnecessary. Why study in school when you can just eat, sleep, and shit (the few things that are necessary)? Why look for a job if you can just be a beggar on the street, get given a bit of money to eat, and be able to sleep and shit wherever you want to? Why go on the internet to chat on forums? None of those things are necessary, but people still do them because they make their lives better, more enjoyable. But the difference is if they do those things because they decided that they want to with their intelligence or if they do them because their instincts tell them to. In case of unnecessary instincts like sex it's all just instincts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewy Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 But the difference is if they do those things because they decided that they want to with their intelligence or if they do them because their instincts tell them to. In case of sex it's all just instincts. I think the last sentence wasn't necessary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 In general, I dislike discussing about the so called 'free will', lots of theories are made, lots of theories fail, some get credibility, some are believed to be true by people, but we just can't really prove it. I'd rather think that we do have it, don't you think it'd be pretty lame for your whole life to have been predetermined either by some kind of superior existence or by fate itself? Following instincts and not following them are also kind of our free will. Imagine your friend being attacked by some kind of dangerous animal, you can either run away or try to save your friend. Your instincts tell you to run, you know that animal is dangerous and it's telling you to avoid it, but in the end it's your choice to abide to it. The reason I dislike discussing this is not because it's something that we can't really get a true answer, but because it's something I don't think the answer would change anything to me. I prefer thinking I make my decisions, but even if it's not the case: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewy Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 I also don't quite like this topic because no matter what anyone says, we don't know for sure. At the end of the day, we can argue all we want, put down other's ideas but still not know for sure. For all we know, everyone is wrong. Stray Cat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flutterz Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 "On one hand, if determinism is true, all our actions are predicted and we are assumed not to be free; on the other hand, if determinism is false, our actions are presumed to be random and as such we do not seem free because we had no part in controlling what happened." - your link I was thinking just that before I clicked the link and saw that there. Once you go smaller than atomic particles, the world down there becomes unpredictable. Photon particles behave differently when it's being directly observed vs. left alone. I'm not sure if I would describe this as a phenomenon though. It's random in the sense that we lack the means to predict it, but if we can get close enough and figure out the probability of an outcome (e.g. the sum chances of pulling each poker hand consistently) would it still be considered random? It's true that they might be random, but we also might have some control. While it's not concrete proof that we have free will, it's a hell of a lot closer than determinism. Even if we know the probability of something, it's still random. Apparently the odds of getting a royal flush are about 1/30000, so if we pull 30000 hands in a row,there will most likely be only one royal flush, but it's not impossible for all 30000 to be royal flushes, although it is a little bit unlikely. But the difference is if they do those things because they decided that they want to with their intelligence or if they do them because their instincts tell them to. In case of unnecessary instincts like sex it's all just instincts. The people who are driven completely by instincts pull their pants down in the middle of the street and shit because their instinct tells them to shit, walk into a grocery store and start eating because their instinct tells them to eat, and rape passersby because their instinct tells them to fuck. Most people aren't like that, they're aware of their instincts, and they take them into consideration when making decisions like "When and what will I eat" or "Should I go to the bathroom soon" or "Should I have sex with girlfriend/boyfriend/etc. today." At the end of the day, we can argue all we want, put down other's ideas but still not know for sure. For all we know, everyone is wrong. And yet people argue about religion, politics, and tastes all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewy Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 And yet people argue about religion, politics, and tastes all the time. So true, so true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okami Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 The people who are driven completely by instincts pull their pants down in the middle of the street and shit because their instinct tells them to shit, walk into a grocery store and start eating because their instinct tells them to eat, and rape passersby because their instinct tells them to fuck. It doesn't meeter if you fallow instincts directly or indirectly the result is the same, it's like if I ware to decide to kill someone just because I don't like him, it doesn't meeter if I kill him in middle of street with an axe cutting him in little pieces or just shoot him in a head with a gun without witnesses, in the end result is that I killed someone just because I don't like him, in one case I am likely to go to prison in other I might get away with it but it doesn't change a result that I killed someone just because I don't like him. It the same for instincts it doesn't meter if you fallow them directly right at a moment or indirectly the result stays the same and that is that you live by fallowing instincts and not using intelligence. I also don't quite like this topic because no matter what anyone says, we don't know for sure. At the end of the day, we can argue all we want, put down other's ideas but still not know for sure. For all we know, everyone is wrong. Isn't it the same with most of conversations people have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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