VNDB - Several Questions About It

[Decay]

Referral links on VNTS are basically what's keeping Fuwanovel afloat, btw. People buying backer status here also helps but I believe the bulk of our revenue is from referral links. It's not a lot of money, we still operate at a loss, and I imagine VNDB does as well, but referrals help make these sites actually feasible to run without any ads.

Yorhel is also very good at what he does and works hard to make VNDB ridiculously fast and efficient, reducing the amount of server power needed to run it. 

[Infernoplex]

2 minutes ago, Decay said:

Referral links on VNTS are basically what's keeping Fuwanovel afloat, btw. People buying backer status here also helps but I believe the bulk of our revenue is from referral links. It's not a lot of money, we still operate at a loss, and I imagine VNDB does as well, but referrals help make these sites actually feasible to run without any ads.

Yorhel is also very good at what he does and works hard to make VNDB ridiculously fast and efficient, reducing the amount of server power needed to run it. 

Interesting, I didn't know that ... I thought it was the donations that were running this site.

[Warfoki]

7 minutes ago, Infernoplex said:

Okay, my bad, so it's not sponsorship, referral links are useless if nobody buys through them ... @Warfoki did Yorhel ever mention how much of these referral links actually brought any real money for the site? I remember you said that Yorhel said it was enough but did he say how much is actually enough for the site to run?

No, not that I'm aware of. He simply said that the site started to cost more than he could safely finance, so he had to either put advertisements up or use referrals. Since he hates the idea of obnoxious ads on the site with a passion, he went for the referrals. He said that now that the income of those is enough to keep the servers up. He never said how much servers cost and how much he personally pays to keep the site running or even if he still pays anything.

For the entire piracy discussion: Hungary is also a haven for piracy, we are probably the most pirate-heavy country within the EU. Cheap and fast internet (that kinda happens when you have a lot of ISP competing), low salary and a legal system that gives no two fucks about piracy. In our country, if you buy any data storage device, you'll have to pay a lot more for them than anywhere else, because Artisjus (Hungarian version of RIAA) takes a cut for all of them with the justification, that you'll use them to pirate shit anyway. So they preemptively take the money from that instead of going through the slow and outdated court system for money.

[yorikbad]

2 minutes ago, Infernoplex said:

I used to read about MG a lot on Siliconera and there's been a recent interview on dualshockers with them ... Here too ... This one is about the MG scammer ... And so on, every now and then, MG is featured in some media ... At least that's the impression I am getting though it's probably related to the fact that I generally follow these things, it's not like they are doing anything special I guess ...

The thing is, MG is popular with core VN readers. But Sekai has much bigger audience thanks to Grisaia, Muv Love, Clannad. Anime fans help to spread the word. 

2 minutes ago, Decay said:

Referral links on VNTS are basically what's keeping Fuwanovel afloat, btw. People buying backer status here also helps but I believe the bulk of our revenue is from referral links. It's not a lot of money, we still operate at a loss, and I imagine VNDB does as well, but referrals help make these sites actually feasible to run without any ads.

Interesting to know. Thanks for sharing. Actually, I wouldn't mind some VN's ads if it's nessesary for surviving.

[Decay]

1 hour ago, Infernoplex said:

Edit: Okay, I am exagareting a little bit, they still do marketing here and there, I am not following them on twitter and such so I can't really say whether they are marketing enough or not ... I think I mostly hear about them on Fuwa, whenever something happens with them, I hear about it here on Fuwa so I think I could safely say that this site really do some kind of marketing for SP even though they aren't paid for that (as far as I know xD) ...

Define "marketing" here, because Fuwanovel does none of it for anyone. On the blog and on Twitter, we only ever cover games we find interesting, only do interviews when we think there are meaningful questions to ask, and we make sure to ask such questions. I interviewed SP this year here, not so I could promote them, but so I could get answers on certain subjects. I interviewed JAST so I could find out more about what happened with Flowers. On the forums, the people post what they're interested in. None of this is marketing on our part. 

SP does a lot of actual marketing. They are way more proactive about getting their games into reviewers' hands than anyone else in this business. They often have very early review keys for reviewers in order to be extra accommodative. They are super prolific on twitter. They give interviews very often. I'd say they actually market themselves more aggressively than their competitors. If you haven't noticed it, that's simply because you haven't been paying attention. 

[Infernoplex]

5 minutes ago, Warfoki said:

No, not that I'm aware of. He simply said that the site started to cost more than he could safely finance, so he had to either put advertisements up or use referrals. Since he hates the idea of obnoxious ads on the site with a passion, he went for the referrals. He said that now that the income of those is enough to keep the servers up. He never said how much servers cost and how much he personally pays to keep the site running or even if he still pays anything.

I see ... I guess he keeps it private then which is okay, I am just hoping that he earns enough through everything because I would be pretty sad one day if VNDB is gone, I guess I took its existence for granted until I thought about how every site out there needs to run on a web server and hosting is neccesary for site's breathing ... Digital economy is important on the web ...

8 minutes ago, Warfoki said:

For the entire piracy discussion: Hungary is also a haven for piracy, we are probably the most pirate-heavy country within the EU. Cheap and fast internet (that kinda happens when you have a lot of ISP competing), low salary and a legal system that gives no two fucks about piracy. In our country, if you buy any data storage device, you'll have to pay a lot more for them than anywhere else, because Artisjus (Hungarian version of RIAA) takes a cut for all of them with the justification, that you'll use them to pirate shit anyway. So they preemptively take the money from that instead of going through the slow and outdated court system for money.

Serbia is also a haven for piracy xD I guess it's true what they say, as you go more to the east in Europe, piracy is more tolerated ... Interesting about the "preemptive" piracy measures, it's first time I am hearing of something like that xD ... Though I remember hearing about Orban's great ideas of Internet taxing and what-not I guess at the end that idea of his fell into the bottom of the hell where it came from, ahaha

11 minutes ago, yorikbad said:

The thing is, MG is popular with core VN readers. But Sekai has much bigger audience thanks to Grisaia, Muv Love, Clannad. Anime fans help to spread the word. 

Yeah, that's it But that's because Sekai managed to pickup those titles and all of them had anime beforehand ... Muv Luv? Isn't that localized by Degica?

13 minutes ago, Decay said:

Define "marketing" here, because Fuwanovel does none of it for anyone. On the blog and on Twitter, we only ever cover games we find interesting, only do interviews when we think there are meaningful questions to ask, and we make sure to ask such questions. I interviewed SP this year here, not so I could promote them, but so I could get answers on certain subjects. I interviewed JAST so I could find out more about what happened with Flowers. On the forums, the people post what they're interested in. None of this is marketing on our part. 

For me, "marketing" is any kind of promotion, either bad or good, I know Fuwa isn't really associated with any of the VN localization companies and it's pretty much neutral on the matter. I know you probably don't look at it like that but I think of any kind of interview as a way for developer to present the product. I didn't read that interview with SP you made so I don't know what it is about and can't really say anything about it. But I do believe you it's not about the promotion of SP, I know it's just for getting some information from them and presenting it to us here. In my earlier post I was just mentioning where I hear about SP the most and that's definitively Fuwa, 4chan and Reddit (this is related to the fact on how I browse the Internet and which sites I visit).

21 minutes ago, Decay said:

SP does a lot of actual marketing. They are way more proactive about getting their games into reviewers' hands than anyone else in this business. They often have very early review keys for reviewers in order to be extra accommodative. They are super prolific on twitter. They give interviews very often. I'd say they actually market themselves more aggressively than their competitors. If you haven't noticed it, that's simply because you haven't been paying attention. 

That's true, I don't really pay attention to their twitter, I mentioned that already I think somewhere earlier. I did exagarate a bit about that part of their marketing efforts, I don't know how much they really spend on it.

[yorikbad]

4 minutes ago, Infernoplex said:

Muv Luv? Isn't that localized by Degica?

My bad, it's 4:30 here in Ukraine. I'm just tired and waiting for the USA election's results.

 

[Warfoki]

12 minutes ago, Infernoplex said:

Serbia is also a haven for piracy xD I guess it's true what they say, as you go more to the east in Europe, piracy is more tolerated ... Interesting about the "preemptive" piracy measures, it's first time I am hearing of something like that xD ... Though I remember hearing about Orban's great ideas of Internet taxing and what-not I guess at the end that idea of his fell into the bottom of the hell where it came from, ahaha

Yeah, that's it But that's because Sekai managed to pickup those titles and all of them had anime beforehand ... Muv Luv? Isn't that localized by Degica?

 

Don't even get me started on that bloody moron. Just hearing his name makes my blood pressure reach unhealthy levels. But, yeah, that idea crashed and burned. He learned the hard way that if you fuck with the internet, the internet tends to fuck right back. Also, this preemptive taxation thing wasn't his idea, it was a thing long before that.

Degica and Sekai Project are basically the same thing. SP handles the family friendly side of the business, while Degica deals with the not Steam-friendly versions.

[Infernoplex]

2 minutes ago, yorikbad said:

My bad, it's 4:30 here in Ukraine. I'm just tired and waiting for the USA election's results.

In Serbia, it's  3:36 ... Trump is leading, that's the last I heard a minute ago xD ... But why do we care about their elections? xD

[Infernoplex]

1 minute ago, Warfoki said:

Don't even get me started on that bloody moron. Just hearing his name makes my blood pressure reach unhealthy levels. But, yeah, that idea crashed and burned. He learned the hard way that if you fuck with the internet, the internet tends to fuck right back. Also, this preemptive taxation thing wasn't his idea, it was a thing long before that.

Oh, sorry, I won't I promise ... Though you must agree with me that whenever something about Hungary happens, it's related to him, basically any news we get here has something to do with him doing something or saying something ...

2 minutes ago, Warfoki said:

Degica and Sekai Project are basically the same thing. SP handles the family friendly side of the business, while Degica deals with the not Steam.friendly versions.

Isn't that Denpasoft and Sekai Project? I thought Degica was a totally different company O_O

[Warfoki]

1 minute ago, Infernoplex said:

Oh, sorry, I won't I promise ... Though you must agree with me that whenever something about Hungary happens, it's related to him, basically any news we get here has something to do with him doing something or saying something ...

Isn't that Denpasoft and Sekai Project? I thought Degica was a totally different company O_O

Well, that's not hard, since he's basically the Hungarian version of Trump.

Uhm, yeah, I derped out on that one. Sorry 'bout that.

[yorikbad]

Just now, Infernoplex said:

But why do we care about their elections

It's not the place for political discussion, but it's important to us for a number of reasons. Also, Serbia. We'll meet you on the football field soon

And back to VNs.

 

22 minutes ago, Infernoplex said:

we only ever cover games we find interesting, only do interviews when we think there are meaningful questions to ask, and we make sure to ask such questions

23 minutes ago, Infernoplex said:

But I do believe you it's not about the promotion of SP, I know it's just for getting some information from them and presenting it to us here

I think from the Sekai standpoint every mention of them is a part of marketing strategy. They don't advertise themselves gracefully but they certainly do this aggressively. While Jast stays in coma and MG tends to attract the core audience, Sekai relies on more broad crowd.

Personally, I don't believe in such investments. Neither do I support their financial aid for the Japanese companies. MG tried to help Minory with Supipara and failed.

 

[sanahtlig]

3 hours ago, Decay said:

Define "marketing" here, because Fuwanovel does none of it for anyone. On the blog and on Twitter, we only ever cover games we find interesting, only do interviews when we think there are meaningful questions to ask, and we make sure to ask such questions. I interviewed SP this year here, not so I could promote them, but so I could get answers on certain subjects. I interviewed JAST so I could find out more about what happened with Flowers. On the forums, the people post what they're interested in. None of this is marketing on our part.

I tend to consider any kind of coverage or attention a form of promotion, especially if the net effect is to increase sales (a common side-effect of negative coverage of niche games).  Sometimes the best way to show contempt is pure apathy.

[Nandemonai]

So CNN is a marketing organization now?  (Alright, I see you in the cheap seats, yes, I know, they are, har har har.)  More to the point, what about your editorial?  Is that MoeNovel marketing material now?

It is true that media coverage generates more attention for whatever's being covered.  That does not mean that the media are marketing.  Marketing is something that companies do to promote their own products.  So yes, Fuwanovel exists for the purpose of promoting visual novels (insofar as it is run by fans for the purpose of disseminating information about them).  That makes them a media outlet, not MangaGamer's or Sekai Project's marketing department.  Marketing makes its decisions based around how the market for a product will be affected; journalism makes its decisions based around what its readership wants to hear about.

[Infernoplex]

3 hours ago, Warfoki said:

Well, that's not hard, since he's basically the Hungarian version of Trump.

Yeah, that's true indeed, he does remind me of Trump very much

3 hours ago, Warfoki said:

Uhm, yeah, I derped out on that one. Sorry 'bout that.

No problem, it was late time in Hungary too I usually go to sleep very late xD ...

3 hours ago, yorikbad said:

It's not the place for political discussion, but it's important to us for a number of reasons. Also, Serbia. We'll meet you on the football field soon

Personally, I don't find it that much important for me but I do guess whatever happens will definitively have huge implications for the whole world. I don't like neither of those two candidates but I know there will never be a third option sadly ... Some late news here are saying Trump is winning important swing states so I am guessing he might really win it after all ...

3 hours ago, yorikbad said:

And back to VNs.

Oh yeah, we derailed this thread so hard after I got my anwsers for the questions

3 hours ago, yorikbad said:

I think from the Sekai standpoint every mention of them is a part of marketing strategy. They don't advertise themselves gracefully but they certainly do this aggressively. While Jast stays in coma and MG tends to attract the core audience, Sekai relies on more broad crowd.

JAST is always in the coma, it looks like it's sleeping all the time, in fact sometimes I feel like going to Peter Payne's twitter account just to confim that he is alive ...

3 hours ago, yorikbad said:

Personally, I don't believe in such investments. Neither do I support their financial aid for the Japanese companies. MG tried to help Minory with Supipara and failed.

It's good you mentioned Supipara, I was checking on it several days ago and apparently, the funding for it has really stalled, it's barely moving for the last several months, I am afraid it's going to tank sadly ... So much for minori's idea to make that funding project succesfull, apparently it's not working very well ... There was like supposed to be 5 chapters for it but it's not even moving in a considerable pace, getting to 200 000 might be the only thing it will accomplish and that's just maybe ... They need to sell a lot of copies of eden and Supipara to make this work.

1 hour ago, Nandemonai said:

So CNN is a marketing organization now?  (Alright, I see you in the cheap seats, yes, I know, they are, har har har.)  More to the point, what about your editorial?  Is that MoeNovel marketing material now?

Ahahaha, good point But I think IMHHW sold well even despite the existence of that review (I think I have heard that on this forum too) ... Speaking of MoeNovel, their marketing strategy looks like its working very well for them.

[ChaosRaven]

This thread is somehow convenient since I also have a question about VNDB.

There's something I don't understand about the calculation of the average ratings for the VNs. Let's use Gusha no Kyouben as an example since it's new and has exactly 10 votes now which makes it easy to calculate.

The 10 votes are currently 5 x 9, 4 x 7 and 1 x 4. The list of people who voted are just 7 though. I don't have a VNDB account but I assume that's because there are three hidden votes from people who want to keep their vote anonymous.

I'm also aware that there are two average ratings, and one of them a bayesian one used for the overall ranking to keep VN's with a low vote count down. It's 5.85 here, but that's not the one I'm interested in.

The one I don't understand is the normal average rating which is apparently 7.74. However, if I add all the votes and divide them by 10 I get (5 * 9 + 4 * 7 + 1 * 4) / 10 = 7.7.

Why is that? I understand the purpose of the bayesian rating, but modifying the normal average rating in whatever way doesn't make sense to me. Is there something I'm missing?

Edit: Ah, I guess I'm dumb, the final ratings are probably based on the precise ratings not the rounded values. Never mind. 

[Botja]

8 minutes ago, ChaosRaven said:

This thread is somehow convenient since I also have a question about VNDB.

There's something I don't understand about the calculation of the average ratings for the VNs. Let's use Gusha no Kyouben as an example since it's new and has exactly ten votes now which makes it easy to calculate.

The 10 votes are currently 5 x 9, 4 x 7 and 1 x 4. The list of people who voted are just 7 though. I don't have a VNDB account but I assume that's because there are three hidden votes from people who want to keep their vote anonymous.

I'm also aware that there are two average ratings, and one of them a bayesian one used for the overall ranking to keep VN's with a low vote count down. It's 5.85 here, but that's not the one I'm interested in.

The one I don't understand is the normal average rating which is apparently 7.74. However, if I add all the votes and divide them by 10 I get (5 * 9 + 4 * 7 + 1 * 4) / 10 = 7.7.

Why is that? I understand the purpose of the bayesian rating, but modifying the normal average rating in whatever way doesn't make sense to me. Is there something I'm missing?

Vndb allows for decimals in ratings, the graph does not reflect that. Hence the 7.74.

[Infernoplex]

5 minutes ago, ChaosRaven said:

Why is that? I understand the purpose of the bayesian rating, but modifying the normal average rating in whatever way doesn't make sense to me. Is there something I'm missing?

I checked the VN page of that game aswell as the scores, you are right, there are 3 hidden votes that we aren't seeing but one of these that we can see is a decimal, 9.4 ... I am guessing that in the sum of all votes, it doesn't go with integer numbers ... Instead it goes with numbers exactly as they are put so if there's a mark with a decimal point, it will not go as a 9, instead it will go as 9.4, hence the different average number at the end ... The graph doesn't represent these decimal number ratings, instead it shows them as the closest integer number to them.

[ChaosRaven]

Yeah, about half a minute after I posted it I realized that it had to be the decimal ratings. I can't believe how I could miss that. *sigh*

[Infernoplex]

6 minutes ago, ChaosRaven said:

Yeah, about half a minute after I posted it I realized that it had to be the decimal ratings. I can't believe how I could miss that. *sigh*

Ahaha No biggie, it happens to me too sometimes

[yorikbad]

We got the answers from yorhel himself. So, if anyone is interested in how much is needed to keep VNDB afloat, you can check it out https://vndb.org/t8438#10

 

 

[Silvz]

Which reminds me. The current vndb server has serious overcapacity, so if there's any cool project in need of hosting, I'd be happy to help.

Guys just imagine Tay talking to Yorhel and they hosting both sites together and bam! FuwaNDB and we become the biggest VN website in the world

[yorikbad]

4 minutes ago, Silvz said:

FuwaNDB and we become the biggest VN website in the world

They are now. In the English world.

[Decay]

The VNDB API already exists and could possibly be used for that kind of thing, it would just take custom coding work on our end to do so. 

[Fred the Barber]

The VNDB API is not really well-suited to being called dynamically from a website, unfortunately, just because the protocol isn't particularly friendly to typical webby AJAX technologies: it's a custom TCP protocol, rather than a REST protocol (though it does at least return JSON documents in the response payload). While that's not the end of the world, it's definitely more of a hassle than one might expect.