Re:zero discussion (and some other non important Summer 2016 anime)

[ittaku]

For any other losers like me who are watching Masou Gakuen HxH all I can say about episode 11 is

Spoiler

My rori power is more powerful than your rori power.

oh and fuck you Ronald (if you're watching this series there's a good chance you know what I'm talking about.)

[Jibril]

So in one episode of Illya, Silver Link gave us

Spoiler

Badass Shirou fighting against a fake Gilgamesh women version with almost having UBW out, Shirou teaming up with Chloe against fake Gilgamesh, a yandere Sakura with F/Z berserker power, Miyu Gilgamesh with Gilgamesh almost taking over her body, shota Gilgamesh "saving" the day with hella lot of foreshadowing on what's to come before finally making Saber Illya using the ultra-op badass Excalibur? I think the fate fans just fainted from this overexposure of twists and services...

Not to mention when Emiya's UBW theme plays during the fight.... Oh God.... 

It took 4 seasons for this series to become truly good and it definitely is worth the damned wait.... even though it's evident SL burned through their budget. Definitely a drop in its action sequence.

[Riku]

It seems that they were kind enough to not do a cliffhanger at the end.

Normally Arc 3 ends like this : (attention, totally spoiler, read only if you want to have a cliffhanger rather than the good end of the anime)

Spoiler

Subaru notices that nobody remember Rem and finds her in a coma. He kills himself before Emilia to go save Rem, but the save point is after she went into a coma. Thus, arc 3 ends, and the hell that is arc 4 begins.

 

[Jun Inoue]

Well, Re:Zero has ended. One of the best series ever with a silly pinkish ending.

The actual ending from the novel is quite awesome, and has one of the series' trademark plot twist that leave you gaping, much like @Riku just mentioned above. Seriously, just ending the anime with one small line in the conversation between Subaru and Emilia, it would have become an awesome ending and left everyone craving for a 2nd season.

Spoiler

Just have them begin walking back to the carriages, Subaru starts telling her about what he has been doing, and Emilia stares at him, asking "Who is Rem?"

There, epic plot twist ending "a la Re:Zero."

 

[Jibril]

Based White Fox for not ending the anime with a cliffhanger ala NGNL style. Now the 2-3 years wait for season 2 begins....

[Flutterz]

Too much "I love you Subaru, you saved me from my oddly specific insecurities by treating me like a human being" for my taste, also could have done without dedicating nearly a third of the series to Subaru being dumb and whining in the capital. I would also have probably enjoyed it more if everyone didn't overhype it as "one of the best series ever".  Other than that, the twists are pretty good, the mysteries are pretty well-done, in conclusion it's literally not the worst series I've watched this season *cough*^Rewrite

[Jun Inoue]

30 minutes ago, Flutterz said:

 

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Too much "I love you Subaru, you saved me from my oddly specific insecurities by treating me like a human being" for my taste, also could have done without dedicating nearly a third of the series to Subaru being dumb and whining in the capital. I would also have probably enjoyed it more if everyone didn't overhype it as "one of the best series ever".  Other than that, the twists are pretty good, the mysteries are pretty well-done, in conclusion it's literally not the worst series I've watched this season *cough*^Rewrite

 

 

But Subaru suffering during the third arc was one of the best things in the whole show (not being ironic, actually) 

[Flutterz]

Just now, Jun Inoue said:

But Subaru suffering during the third arc was one of the best things in the whole show (not being ironic, actually) 

I'd agree with you if I liked cringing for almost 7 episodes

[Jun Inoue]

Just now, Flutterz said:

I'd agree with you if I liked cringing for almost 7 episodes

Do you know who cringed? The tools who foolishly self-inserted into what seemed like a generic isekai MC who would get all dem grills and have an easy time. Got smth to tell me, Flut?

[Jibril]

Tales of Zestiria the X announced for a second season Winter 2017. Well that put my worries about the pacing gone so that's good. Hopefully it'll be better than the game, I have hopes for ufotable to adapt it properly.

[Flutterz]

1 minute ago, Jun Inoue said:

Do you know who cringed? The tools who foolishly self-inserted into what seemed like a generic isekai MC who would get all dem grills and have an easy time. Got smth to tell me, Flut?

Time-travelling powers side, Subaru is basically a hikki loser, and I'm a hikki loser. Only difference is that I avoid doing dumb cringy shit irl

[Jun Inoue]

Just now, Flutterz said:

Time-travelling powers side, Subaru is basically a hikki loser, and I'm a hikki loser. Only difference is that I avoid doing dumb cringy shit irl

And that's why we love each other, Flut. because we all are cynical bitches who cringed when we look back at certain things.

But my cynicism is winning over lately, hence I enjoyed the deconstruction on the whole isekai MC thing, and how it made so so many fans rage, who thought Re:Zero was another random fantasy harem show for them to masturbate to. Probably is why I give it a higher mark.

All said and done, Re:Zero probably deserves an 8 due to a shitty ending and having a bit more than a few problems during its course, but with its positives, ideas and intentions still weighting much more.

[Flutterz]

20 minutes ago, Jun Inoue said:

And that's why we love each other, Flut. because we all are cynical bitches who cringed when we look back at certain things.

But my cynicism is winning over lately, hence I enjoyed the deconstruction on the whole isekai MC thing, and how it made so so many fans rage, who thought Re:Zero was another random fantasy harem show for them to masturbate to. Probably is why I give it a higher mark.

All said and done, Re:Zero probably deserves an 8 due to a shitty ending and having a bit more than a few problems during its course, but with its positives, ideas and intentions still weighting much more.

No idea what an isekai MC is tbh, but there was still too much "random fantasy harem" imo.

 

I could give it a pass if it was just Emilia right at the end, since that would basically be Subaru achieving his goal throughout the season, which, while still tropey, is fair enough I guess. But the whole "Rem going from being ready to murder Subaru to "You saved me I love you" in like 4 episodes" really put me off, and consecutively made it harder to give Emilia a pass. This shit is why I like to keep my "interesting fantasy/sci-fi" and "cute girls/romance" anime separate.

And yeah, the ending. The only thing I hate more than "Ending is good, then after credits plot twist out of nowhere, [End season]" is "Ending is good, [End Season, Season 2 starts] By the way we forgot to mention this plot twist that happened at the end of the last season."

[Jun Inoue]

21 minutes ago, Flutterz said:

No idea what an isekai MC is tbh, but there was still too much "random fantasy harem" imo.

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I could give it a pass if it was just Emilia right at the end, since that would basically be Subaru achieving his goal throughout the season, which, while still tropey, is fair enough I guess. But the whole "Rem going from being ready to murder Subaru to "You saved me I love you" in like 4 episodes" really put me off, and consecutively made it harder to give Emilia a pass. This shit is why I like to keep my "interesting fantasy/sci-fi" and "cute girls/romance" anime separate.

And yeah, the ending. The only thing I hate more than "Ending is good, then after credits plot twist out of nowhere, [End season]" is "Ending is good, [End Season, Season 2 starts] By the way we forgot to mention this plot twist that happened at the end of the last season."

With isekai MC I mean generic shitbag who gets transported to another world and, suddenly, is all skillful and resourceful, when he was supposed to be a piece of shit half otaku half hikikomori no-lifer that wouldn't be able to even care for themselves a couple consecutive days. Subaru's failings really hit strong to many people, cuz they thought Re:Zero was going for this kind of standard crap many isekai anime have, and instead punished them by having the MC suffer so, so much for acting like that kind of MC.

Btw, regarding Rem, this is yet another thing I accepted and even enjoyed after much discussion with tons of people. I saw it on a different light when I realized her transition makes sense as she isn't really over her complex about what happened to her and Ram in their childhood. She has simply replaced Ram for Subaru as her reason for living (smth also seen in the first OP, btw), which is still messed up. But again, it makes sense, cuz just a couple of events about fighting your "fears" doesn't cure people of their problems and traumas. She was way TOO dere, that much I'll easily concede, but I don't count her transition as smth bad, since both her murderous attitude at first (a dude reeking of the witch that ruined her and her sister's lives, and murdered everyone she knew just barges into her house and life acting like an idiot) and later on massively switching on to Subaru (replacing that which allows her to avoid facing her fears and learning to live by and for herself) make sense in the bigger picture of the story and character development.
It's played off as sweet in the scenes, but it actually shows that Rem hasn't gotten above her trauma at all.

And there are many discussions and explanations like this. It's one of the reasons I like Re:Zero so much. There's generally a good amount of explanation and development once you put all the pieces together and discuss.

Many people hated Subaru on the third arc, but it was them hating him and cringing so much that showed what good work the author had made with showing how shitty, broken and cringy this kind of MCs SHOULD ALWAYS be. They get off easy in most anime, but not in this one (also the author enjoys the fans' suffering).

[Kurisu-Chan]

Fuck Danganronpa 3, fuck it totally, fuck, fuck, fuck.

 

You Re;Zero fans should be happy, when your MC can go back in time, your waifu/fav char never dies forever.

 

My review of danganronpa 3? Despair/10. 

[Jibril]

@Jun Inoue You can't say Re Zero is an anime that deconstruct the Isekai fantasy MC genre when there's barely any of those. Take a look at the most popular Isekai anime from the beginning. Mondaiji (3 already overpowered characters from 3 distinct setting and backgrounds transported to a single fantasy world), NGNL (ultra smart NEETs that beats villains with intelligence without gaining further OP powers), Log Horizon (30000 average MMORPG players stuck in their game world that became real), Grimgar (a bunch of Isekai characters who are weak af), GATE (literally Modern military vs Fantasy world).... The closest to your description are Overlord and Kono Suba, both which aren't your everyday Isekai MC either with the former being a non-human Isekai that's basically an overglorified supervillain while the latter pokes fun at the trope harem characters Isekai MC usually gets (with the MC again not being OP).

If we're talking about Iseaki LN/WN in general then yes, Re Zero is a deconstruction of that but you can't say that to the Isekai anime.... I mean the next few Isekai anime that's announced are Youjo Senki and Knights & Magic, both which again aren't your usual Isekai MC story with the former features a non-otaku being reincarnated as a loli that features an alternate WWI setting with magic (with heavy emphasis on real world military strategies and procedures instead of moe fanservice) while the latter is an Isekai with mecha setting. So far actual Isekai fantasy anime with MCs that automatically gained OP powers and a harem hasn't existed.... yet...

So as it stands, Re Zero is just another Isekai fantasy anime with the twist is that the story represent a realistic orderly event of what actually would happen if a non-functioning member of society gets transported to an alternate world and lives there with that mindset.

[Jun Inoue]

9 minutes ago, Jibril said:

@Jun Inoue You can't say Re Zero is an anime that deconstruct the Isekai fantasy MC genre when there's barely any of those. Take a look at the most popular Isekai anime from the beginning. Mondaiji (3 already overpowered characters from 3 distinct setting and backgrounds transported to a single fantasy world), NGNL (ultra smart NEETs that beats villains with intelligence without gaining further OP powers), Log Horizon (30000 average MMORPG players stuck in their game world that became real), Grimgar (a bunch of Isekai characters who are weak af), GATE (literally Modern military vs Fantasy world).... The closest to your description are Overlord and Kono Suba, both which aren't your everyday Isekai MC either with the former being a non-human Isekai that's basically an overglorified supervillain while the latter pokes fun at the trope harem characters Isekai MC usually gets (with the MC again not being OP).

If we're talking about Iseaki LN/WN in general then yes, Re Zero is a deconstruction of that but you can't say that to the Isekai anime.... I mean the next few Isekai anime that's announced are Youjo Senki and Knights & Magic, both which again aren't your usual Isekai MC story with the former features a non-otaku being reincarnated as a loli that features an alternate WWI setting with magic (with heavy emphasis on real world military strategies and procedures instead of moe fanservice) while the latter is an Isekai with mecha setting. So far actual Isekai fantasy anime with MCs that automatically gained OP powers and a harem hasn't existed.... yet...

So as it stands, Re Zero is just another Isekai fantasy anime with the twist is that the story represent a realistic orderly event of what actually would happen if a non-functioning member of society gets transported to an alternate world and lives there with that mindset.

SAO, Outbreak Company...

Also, NGNL is part of that group, too. The MCs are smart in an insane and absurd way, simply because that's what the author wanted in the main characters. And so is GATE. The MC is a lazy-ass idiot who just works to fuel his hobby of reading doujins. But by the powers that are all holy, the author simply decided to give him a background where he actually is a super badass marine-like Rambo who's lazy because he's too cool to actually try. We never really see why or how, we are just given that information. That, again, is the MC being actually op when it matters because the plot wishes it so. And I'm not being hateful, btw. I love GATE, and I believe I gave it a 7 or smth.

And there's plenty more that are more on the fantasy side, but still are the same kind of shows. Like Nobunaga (the one where the guy gets transported and it's Koihime-style, with Nobunaga being a girl, and even though he's a random useless dude, he gets all awesome-y cuz that's what people wanna see). But you don't really need a huge list, I believe. Even the isekai stories that don't follow the standard, tend to do si with a small twist or change in perspective. Re:Zero is one of the few (or maybe only?) anime that clash directly and deconstructs the kind of MC that we see so, so much in tons of genres.

And considering that Subaru's development and character is like 2/3 of the show, I don't think you can call Re:Zero "another isekai fantasy anime with a twist."

[Jibril]

@Jun Inoue As a matter of fact, yes I can call Re:Zero "another isekai fantasy anime with a twist" because by definition that twist is the progression development of Subaru, the MC. As I said again and again, Re Zero did NOT deconstruct any genre.... The show only potrays realistically of what happens when an actual goodness-for-nothing Otaku ended up in a fantasy world. That's it. This isn't like Madoka that goes away from the usual rules of a Magical girl anime....

GATE MC isn't a loser. He was married and is first and foremost a soldier, then an Otaku. This isn't unrealistic either as Otaku do indeed exist in the JSDF, just like that fujoshi that painted her attack helicopter with anime art.

Outbreak Company is similar to GATE except this is more to a comedy perspective where as GATE is to a realistic politics approach. OC doesn't feature an OP MC either, as a matter of fact he's completely.... average. No OP magic or power ups that kills demons in one hit....

NGNL MCs are smart in an insane way and yes that is true. They're already absurd genius before they went there and they're also easily psychologically disturbed if they were to be separated by just a few seconds. Hmmm does it seems like an Isekai anime where the MC gains OP powers with no weakness and a harem?

Like I said, Isekai anime never sticks to one genre and barely any features MC that automatically receives OP power with a harem to boot thus Re Zero cannot be a deconstructive anime as there isn't any to begin with. IF we're talking about LN or WN then yes you could argue that, but as it stands unless more than 30% of Isekai anime actually is filled with that trope, then Re Zero is just another Isekai anime with a twist that's done right.

Look, is Re:Zero a damn good anime? Yes, yes it is. Is it a deconstructive anime? No, it is not.

Also SAO isn't an Isekai.

[Jun Inoue]

45 minutes ago, Jibril said:

@Jun Inoue As a matter of fact, yes I can call Re:Zero "another isekai fantasy anime with a twist" because by definition that twist is the progression development of Subaru, the MC. As I said again and again, Re Zero did NOT deconstruct any genre.... The show only potrays realistically of what happens when an actual goodness-for-nothing Otaku ended up in a fantasy world. That's it. This isn't like Madoka that goes away from the usual rules of a Magical girl anime....

GATE MC isn't a loser. He was married and is first and foremost a soldier, then an Otaku. This isn't unrealistic either as Otaku do indeed exist in the JSDF, just like that fujoshi that painted her attack helicopter with anime art.

Outbreak Company is similar to GATE except this is more to a comedy perspective where as GATE is to a realistic politics approach. OC doesn't feature an OP MC either, as a matter of fact he's completely.... average. No OP magic or power ups that kills demons in one hit....

NGNL MCs are smart in an insane way and yes that is true. They're already absurd genius before they went there and they're also easily psychologically disturbed if they were to be separated by just a few seconds. Hmmm does it seems like an Isekai anime where the MC gains OP powers with no weakness and a harem?

Like I said, Isekai anime never sticks to one genre and barely any features MC that automatically receives OP power with a harem to boot thus Re Zero cannot be a deconstructive anime as there isn't any to begin with. IF we're talking about LN or WN then yes you could argue that, but as it stands unless more than 30% of Isekai anime actually is filled with that trope, then Re Zero is just another Isekai anime with a twist that's done right.

Look, is Re:Zero a damn good anime? Yes, yes it is. Is it a deconstructive anime? No, it is not.

Also SAO isn't an Isekai.

The "twist" conforms the main block of the anime. The show just doesn't happen to have Subaru. The show is Subaru, and then several more things. Heck, some people even jokingly asked "is Emilia actually the heroine of the anime?" since the only main character seems to be Subaru, in the end. There are far more isekai novels going with what I've described before than not, to the point that it has become almost a standard of the genre, hence the deconstruction. Subaru's development is the actual focal point of the whole anime, and that focal point is a huge "screw you, clichéd isekai MCs." Calling Re:Zero an isekai with a twist is pretty much diminishing what conforms the solely most important point and theme of the whole series. Madoka is actually an odd comparison, cuz it doesn't try to deconstruct anything. It plays on expectations and gives a twist to the whole series with a genre "switch." It is never a critique.

GATE's MC is indeed a loser, by most standards. His "hobby" is more of an obsession, even if oftentimes played off with humour. Considering his interests and constant "what a drag..." attitude, he is very much first an otaku and then a soldier, both implied and explicitly said by himself. The whole "what a drag having to do stuff" is no more than a very classic narrative tool to make the character sound cooler, since he's too cool to "bother with doing stuff" but will always end up doing it, showing how nice and professional he actually is. Also, he was married? The series themselves show that that's nothing more than a weird mini-arc in their lives. They didn't even understand what marriage entitled, and it just didn't work out, I wouldn't call that at all a point on maturity or responsibility. In the same way that GATE is a love letter to the JSDF (we all know this), the MC is a generic "I'm so plain, lazy and normal, but when the beast inside me awakens I'm capable of everythiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing rawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwr."

Outbreak Company is indeed all for the comedy, but I meant that the show is mostly a moe show and doesn't really hide it. And the MC goes to that world and interesting and cool shit happens, and girls happen, and so on.

NGNL is also difficult to defend. That weakness is 99% comedy 1% plot. It's done to show a couple scenes to joke about it, but isn't really what we would call relevant. But what's important regarding what I was saying with NGNL, is the fact that they arrive to that world, go with their "well fuck, let's enjoy this shit!" which, I'm gonna say it now, it is coherent cuz c'on, we'd all do that at least at the beginning. But that's it... there's no development at all. The MCs are OP as shit due to how unbelievably smart they are, and they get to a world where they play at their strengths, which means they constantly show off how awesome they are, the show never really caring to do anything at all except that. It's another isekai power fantasy. Also yes to the harem. Little sister, the princess (and we could add the other human and the elf, but they are mostly on themselves), Jibril, towards the end the werebeast loli, and we all know the continuation will have them visit other races and get more girls.

 

So, again, isekai anime tends to have an ongoing standard, which is also the source of much discussion, with some people in the industry being openly dissatisfied that so many shows so easily go for the cheap power fantasy, while others are perfectly fine with it. Re:Zero's author is of the former, having stated before (if I remember properly) that he has a love/hate relationship with the isekai genre, loving it dearly but being very frustrated by much of its shallowness in plenty of shows that don't put much or any care into them.

Also, you shouldn't take the trope 100% to the letter. As I said, examples like GATE or NGNL do follow that trope, but are more of a variant of it. GATE uses a context of imperialism, but its MC is the exact standard you expect from an isekai. NGNL doesn't have the MCs become super awesome, but only because they already were during their introduction (and they do become awesome in a way, since in their new world they get recognition and respect out of being videogame junkies).

 

Also, SAO is an isekai. Not properly "another world" as in literally another world. But the whole show is about how they are transported into another world (a game), and how Kirito goes from being thoroughly bland and standard to an awesomesauce pussy magnet, step by step a la isekai cliché.
Saying it's not an isekai because actually they are in a game with servers set in the real world is more of a context excuse than an actual genre change. It's an isekai in everything but name, if you so wish.

 

So, as I've discussed a few times before, Re:Zero does indeed deconstruct a standard set by the isekai world of anime for quite a while, applying harsh but coherent standards on the kind of MC (not the literal MC, but the kind of) that tends to represent an isekai show.

[Jibril]

18 minutes ago, Jun Inoue said:

The "twist" conforms the main block of the anime. The show just doesn't happen to have Subaru. The show is Subaru, and then several more things. Heck, some people even jokingly asked "is Emilia actually the heroine of the anime?" since the only main character seems to be Subaru, in the end. There are far more isekai novels going with what I've described before than not, to the point that it has become almost a standard of the genre, hence the deconstruction. Subaru's development is the actual focal point of the whole anime, and that focal point is a huge "screw you, clichéd isekai MCs." Calling Re:Zero an isekai with a twist is pretty much diminishing what conforms the solely most important point and theme of the whole series. Madoka is actually an odd comparison, cuz it doesn't try to deconstruct anything. It plays on expectations and gives a twist to the whole series with a genre "switch." It is never a critique.

Exactly. Isekai novels. But anime? No.

Okay fine.... let's say for argument's sake that SAO, NGNL and GATE conforms to the standard cliche Isekai MC genre..... then does that mean any anime that doesn't feature those essentially becomes a deconstruction anime? No.

Lets's take Log Horizon. Instead of a single or limited amount of people, it features 30000 players being "isekai'd" as it's setting. There's also a lot of characters portrayed there and not only high levels players but also low levels. In a sense no one there is OP and no one there is forming a harem, only power ups that they have from their characters. Moreover the fights are even and doesn't necessarily end with an overwhelming victory. It also features and discusses on how not everybody wanted to go to an Isekai world and not everyone would actually accept it if it did happen. Does that mean due to those setting it became a deconstruction anime that criticizes the Isekai cliche genre as a whole? No.

Another example, Grimgar. Isekai setting with an amnesiac characters featuring them as really weak and easily prone to be killed by weak monsters. It has game features such as guilds and the normal monsters however as it features not only a large amount of characters being transported but also being the focus point of the show is the part of the weak characters and their struggles to survive. Does it became a deconstruction anime that criticizes the Isekai cliche genre that features OP characters? No.

Then let's see Re Zero. It features a NEET character which suddenly is transported to the alternate world that seemingly is easy to live in and would probably makes him have a good life. The twist is that the Isekai world he transported in is actually cruel and he only has Return by Death as his power and tries to survive in that cruel world. Does it became a deconstruction anime that criticizes Isekai settings with easy powerups and skills? NO.

Just as how a ton of romance anime features girls meet boys by accident doesn't mean a romance anime that doesn't feature said trope automatically gained a deconstruction status. Just because an action anime features the ending where the good guy loses to the bad guys doesn't mean it automatically became a deconstruction anime that criticizes action anime that features the opposite.

Just because Re:Zero makes the MC live a living hell DOESN'T MEAN Re Zero becomes a deconstruction anime that criticizes anime with cheap powerups!

[Jun Inoue]

9 hours ago, Jibril said:

Exactly. Isekai novels. But anime? No.

Okay fine.... let's say for argument's sake that SAO, NGNL and GATE conforms to the standard cliche Isekai MC genre..... then does that mean any anime that doesn't feature those essentially becomes a deconstruction anime? No.

Lets's take Log Horizon. Instead of a single or limited amount of people, it features 30000 players being "isekai'd" as it's setting. There's also a lot of characters portrayed there and not only high levels players but also low levels. In a sense no one there is OP and no one there is forming a harem, only power ups that they have from their characters. Moreover the fights are even and doesn't necessarily end with an overwhelming victory. It also features and discusses on how not everybody wanted to go to an Isekai world and not everyone would actually accept it if it did happen. Does that mean due to those setting it became a deconstruction anime that criticizes the Isekai cliche genre as a whole? No.

Another example, Grimgar. Isekai setting with an amnesiac characters featuring them as really weak and easily prone to be killed by weak monsters. It has game features such as guilds and the normal monsters however as it features not only a large amount of characters being transported but also being the focus point of the show is the part of the weak characters and their struggles to survive. Does it became a deconstruction anime that criticizes the Isekai cliche genre that features OP characters? No.

Then let's see Re Zero. It features a NEET character which suddenly is transported to the alternate world that seemingly is easy to live in and would probably makes him have a good life. The twist is that the Isekai world he transported in is actually cruel and he only has Return by Death as his power and tries to survive in that cruel world. Does it became a deconstruction anime that criticizes Isekai settings with easy powerups and skills? NO.

Just as how a ton of romance anime features girls meet boys by accident doesn't mean a romance anime that doesn't feature said trope automatically gained a deconstruction status. Just because an action anime features the ending where the good guy loses to the bad guys doesn't mean it automatically became a deconstruction anime that criticizes action anime that features the opposite.

Just because Re:Zero makes the MC live a living hell DOESN'T MEAN Re Zero becomes a deconstruction anime that criticizes anime with cheap powerups!

It being isekai novels or anime is picking on details. The theme we are talking about is isekai, not in which media it expresses itself...

And, again, you are kind of missing the whole point. Re:Zero is not a deconstruction anime because it does not follow its guideline, as you seem to assume in your first lines. It's a deconstruction anime because its main theme is Subaru, and Subaru is literally a deconstruction of the isekai MC, and why the standard approach of the genre to its main characters would be bound to extreme and painful failure if they were so much as somewhat coherent when it comes to characters and their progression.

So, yet again x2, I've never said an anime is a deconstruction of smth just for not following its guidelines. That would be a super weird and, above all, simply wrong definition of what a deconstruction is.

Re:Zero not only doesn't follow its guidelines, but makes its main focus when it comes to character development to give its everything to pulling apart the classic isekai MC, punish the attitude that characterizes isekai MCs (imagine GATE with some of the heroines dying or tons of innocent people -apart from the ones who already do, but even more- dying because the MC acted all lazy yet again, but this time there was no plot armor to make things always go his way in the end, or NGNL where Sora's laziness meant they were too late for something or failed to do something in time, and hence problems start). Isekai MCs are usually not punished by their otherwise deeply flawed personalities because that's one of its most classic standards, and the one Re:Zero punishes thoroughly. How the MCs attitudes, reactions and acceptance by other characters and the world are bollocks and incoherent through and through. Re:Zero is also not cruel or evil, but only harsh. As I've mentioned plenty of times, Subaru gets punished by his own mistakes and failures. Sure, there's a degree of sadism by part of the author, but the vast majority of lows and depression or disgrace that befalls Subaru is the one brought onto himself by his spoiled attitude and rotten personality deep inside himself, seen both in the key scenes when he fights with Emilia after getting beaten up by Julius, and when Rem forces him to confront his reality in episode 18.

Re:Zero is a deconstruction because you can watch the show and see it dissect the isekai MC and show why and how that kind of character is simply bound for failure unless they change their way of thinking and doing things (hence the whole progress of Subaru, his failings, his mental breakdown in the beginning of the 3rd arc and why things only start going his way when he finally starts to change as a person for the better). It's not that Re:Zero makes its MC go through a living hell. It's WHY and HOW. It's that Subaru's whole journey is one that shows how intrinsically flawed the standard isekai MC is, and how unforgiving reality is to such a person. Subaru isn't punished by monsters, evil cults or bad luck. His lowest points are when he cannot take anymore because he's fucked up things himself so hard, he doesn't even know what to do. And that's the key, Re:Zero's antagonist when it comes to its development, is Subaru himself. The old Subaru. The isekai MC Subaru.

And this is not even so surprising. There's plenty of anime that take a stab at criticising smth or at least putting some attention to it. Hell, I've seen so many people mistake Kill la Kill for "just another ecchi shounen" and completely miss the themes of coming of age and puberty, to put an example.

So, yes, Re:Zero is a deconstruction anime, and one that deconstructs cheap MCs usually found in the isekai genre (key words being "usually" and "isekai").

 

As a small note: I don't think I've criticised Log Horizon in any of my posts, so not sure why it keeps showing up as a counter-example. Log Horizon doesn't fall to the isekai standards of MCs, since Shiro is quite strong but it's very much explained and contextualized, apart of his character receiving a lot of character development.

[havoc]

10 minutes ago, Jun Inoue said:

It being isekai novels or anime is picking on details. The theme we are talking about is isekai, not in which media it expresses itself...

And, again, you are kind of missing the whole point. Re:Zero is not a deconstruction anime because it does not follow its guideline, as you seem to assume in your first lines. It's a deconstruction anime because its main theme is Subaru, and Subaru is literally a deconstruction of the isekai MC, and why the standard approach of the genre to its main characters would be bound to extreme and painful failure if they were so much as somewhat coherent when it comes to characters and their progression.

So, yet again x2, I've never said an anime is a deconstruction of smth just for not following its guidelines. That would be a super weird and, above all, simply wrong definition of what a deconstruction is.

Re:Zero not only doesn't follow its guidelines, but makes its main focus when it comes to character development to give its everything to pulling apart the classic isekai MC, punish the attitude that characterizes isekai MCs (imagine GATE with some of the heroines dying or tons of innocent people -apart from the ones who already do, but even more- dying because the MC acted all lazy yet again, but this time there was no plot armor to make things always go his way in the end, or NGNL where Sora's laziness meant they were too late for something or failed to do something in time, and hence problems start). Isekai MCs are usually not punished by their otherwise deeply flawed personalities because that's one of its most classic standards, and the one Re:Zero punishes thoroughly. How the MCs attitudes, reactions and acceptance by other characters and the world are bollocks and incoherent through and through. Re:Zero is also not cruel or evil, but only harsh. As I've mentioned plenty of times, Subaru gets punished by his own mistakes and failures. Sure, there's a degree of sadism by part of the author, but the vast majority of lows and depression or disgrace that befalls Subaru is the one brought onto himself by his spoiled attitude and rotten personality deep inside himself, seen both in the key scenes when he fights with Emilia after getting beaten up by Julius, and when Rem forces him to confront his reality in episode 18.

Re:Zero is a deconstruction because you can watch the show and see it dissect the isekai MC and show why and how that kind of character is simply bound for failure unless they change their way of thinking and doing things (hence the whole progress of Subaru, his failings, his mental breakdown in the beginning of the 3rd arc and why things only start going his way when he finally starts to change as a person for the better). It's not that Re:Zero makes its MC go through a living hell. It's WHY and HOW. It's that Subaru's whole journey is one that shows how intrinsically flawed the standard isekai MC is, and how unforgiving reality is to such a person. Subaru isn't punished by monsters, evil cults or bad luck. His lowest points are when he cannot take anymore because he's fucked up things himself so hard, he doesn't even know what to do. And that's the key, Re:Zero's antagonist when it comes to its development, is Subaru himself. The old Subaru. The isekai MC Subaru.

And this is not even so surprising. There's plenty of anime that take a stab at criticising smth or at least putting some attention to it. Hell, I've seen so many people mistake Kill la Kill for "just another ecchi shounen" and completely miss the themes of coming of age and puberty, to put an example.

So, yes, Re:Zero is a deconstruction anime, and one that deconstructs cheap MCs usually found in the isekai genre (key words being "usually" and "isekai").

 

As a small note: I don't think I've criticised Log Horizon in any of my posts, so not sure why it keeps showing up as a counter-example. Log Horizon doesn't fall to the isekai standards of MCs, since Shiro is quite strong but it's very much explained and contextualized, apart of his character receiving a lot of character development.

I dont see how people forget zero no louise as one of the first iterations of the genre that became popular and instead go to ngnl and stuff.

[Jun Inoue]

1 minute ago, havoc said:

I dont see how people forget zero no louise as one of the first iterations of the genre that became popular and instead go to ngnl and stuff.

Pretty much. We have quite a bunch of examples in whatever media, really. Even when you go out of the isekai and move onto fantasy or even tons of slice of life, there's still this ongoing "ideal" of MC that, ironically, is everything but ideal.

[Kurisu-Chan]

If you take out the protag, Re;Zero is pretty much as classic as classicism means.

Even if you add the protag, the story is still extremely classic.

Resume? it's a good anime.

[Nosebleed]

I love the amount of super serious discussion about such an average, blantantly otaku pandering show.

Miyazaki was right. Anime should just die now.

Meanwhile, Amanchu started as my favorite, stayed my favorite, and ended as my favorite show. Not many people talked about it, but it was my salvation every week.