Censorship in VNs Discussion

[Zenophilious]

Now, I know what you're all thinking (that is, if you're an older user that remembers me in my noob days   ):  "Zeno's made at least 3 of these threads before!  I wish he'd just shut up about censorship and how bad it is."  However, this time is different.  I'm not going to talk about specific instances or ask why it happens, or even state my own views on the subject, this is about discussing censorship in the medium in general.

 

I'm sure a lot of people already know my views on censorship (lookin' at you, Rooke), but I'm curious to hear what everyone else's are, and their thoughts about how censorship affects the VN industry as a whole.  Do you think it's a necessary evil?  Is it entirely beneficial?  Is it bad, no matter what the reason?  Or is it a more modern shade of grey?  Please explain your view on the topic.  To be clear, I'm not talking about just the censorship of h-scenes, I'm referring to any sort of censorship, including words, actions, etc.

 

Note: Please keep things civil.  Just because you have a different opinion than someone else doesn't mean you can disrespect their own view.  Disrespect and derailing (not just an off-topic post or two, but full derailing) will result in mod action.

[Heizei_koukousei]

So I look at Steam, and they are releasing all ages versions of visual novels because they don't support adult content. But why is that so? Why is it that Steam doesn't support adult content? It's because of the marketing demographics. Most people who are Steam users are younger caucasian males. Its a group of people who doesn't find any benefit, or who shouldn't be exposed to adult content. 

 

Now visual novels were intended to be for adults, in Japan, who wanted to be exposed to said adult content. Do the Japanese people give a shit about censoring on Steam? No, they don't. That is where my point comes in, censoring isn't bad. It's only a negative thing when it occurs across the board. If certain things are censored to certain audiences there isn't a problem if there are alternatives.

[Eclipsed]

Not into marketing so i wont pull stats about sales regarding censors and its effect on industry whatnot and will just give my thoughts on censorship in general.

It's a modern shade of grey. There will always be people who view sex as taboo and not bother getting even censored VNs because it has already been 'tainted' for having sex in the first place, there will people who are just a bit uncomfortable with sex and so they will definitely prefer censored version, and there will be people who just don't care / people who prefer the sex or are in the medium solely for the sex.

I'm in it solely for the sex, and so I hate censorship.

Jk I'm more on the neutral 'if there's sex, cool; if not, that's also cool". Just don't bang each other within a day of becoming an official couple and we're good

~~
Oh but thats answering how i feel about h-scenes^

If censorship = remove content I'm getting out my pitchforks. Censorship imo should at most be simply blacking out when h-scenes occur and that's fine; if you butcher entire scenes worth like ageha route in Moenovel's KonoSora that's no-no

TL;DR I don't like censorship but I understand the moralities and legalities in doing so; Also, if censorship must be done keep it minimal.

[Nosebleed]

For me censorship in VNs equals thought policing so I simply do not support any form of it.

 

Would I call it a necessarly evil? Perhaps depending on context and what kind of censorship.

For example, putting mosaics over stuff is annoying, but at the same time I realize that without the mosaics I wouldn't have gotten it in the first place, so while I do get annoyed by the mosaics, it's the only way I would have gotten the product as the law stands right now, so I can't complain much about it (and at some point I just started to imagine genitals as a bunch of pixels so it doesn't affect me much anymore)

But censorship of words is ridiculous in my opinion and I've never understood why some companies decide to bleep out cursing, especially when the game's an eroge, it just makes no sense and I could never find any specific laws regarding it so I don't know what's up with it.

 

Overall though, I still do wish we could evolve a little and be mature about obscene content and stop censoring it in any way, shape or form (obscene in the sense that it doesn't directly harm any human being).

 

Is it bad for the VN industry? I don't think so, I doubt people outside the medium will really see an eroge much differently regardless of the censorship it has. If you tell someone you can have sex with highschoolers in it, they'll still think it's awful in the end. If you censor all the H-scenes out of an eroge, then I think it projects a false image on the industry and I've always been fairly against it because I've always thought that beating around the bush and pretending that the thousands of 18+ VNs don't exist is just silly and I'd much rather confront it with people and explain there's two sides of the coin than try to hide one and give myself some sort of false sense of morality, leading me to always be against full forms of censorship in western releases.

 

At the end of the day though, regardless of my views on it, all I really care about is myself and wether or not I can enjoy the product. I can deal with mosaics, so if everything stays as is, I won't complain much, but I wouldn't mind if Japan decided to stop putting mosaics on stuff. As for western releases, I'll support the uncensored ones or at least the ones that translate and release everything as it was in the original, otherwise, don't care.

[sanahtlig]

I have a long and historied stance on this subject.

 

Why I endorse JAST’s censorship of Shiny Days (2015)

Why I won’t be buying If My Heart Had Wings (2013)

The Great Family Project Armageddon of 2009: part 1, part 2

[starlessn1ght]

I think it would be good for the market, yes, but only if it was from the beginning, sadly. Because the one thing that makes VNs something unpopular and niche are the H-scenes. If there's no H, people don't buy. But people who don't like this stuff also don't buy because of this stuff, even if some VN with no H-content shows up, they wouldn't even hear about, because they don't play VNs. If VNs were non-H from the beginning, they would be far more popular, even in the West.

 

Censorship opens the range of the VN market, for people who don't like those stuff, like me. People who're sad because the VN industry was the only one almost completely polluted by this. Anime has hentai and non-hentai, manga too, LN too, books too, every media but VNs (although there are non-H VNs they're very few compared to the others, even including console).

 

I would like to meet the idiot who linked non-nukige VNs to H. I'd punch him until he regrets all his actions.

[atorq]

So I look at Steam, and they are releasing all ages versions of visual novels because they don't support adult content. But why is that so? Why is it that Steam doesn't support adult content? It's because of the marketing demographics. Most people who are Steam users are younger caucasian males. Its a group of people who doesn't find any benefit, or who shouldn't be exposed to adult content. 

 

Now visual novels were intended to be for adults, in Japan, who wanted to be exposed to said adult content. Do the Japanese people give a shit about censoring on Steam? No, they don't. That is where my point comes in, censoring isn't bad. It's only a negative thing when it occurs across the board. If certain things are censored to certain audiences there isn't a problem if there are alternatives.

 

Really now, younger caucasian males doesn't find any benefit or should not be exposed to adult content? That's ridiculous, sure, violence is not bad but oh no here comes the evil sex, better watch out! Even if that's not what you meant I can not agree with what your saying here. Sex and porn never hurt nobody. Sure there's the whole thing about misconceptions and such, but that is something that should be taken car of through education. Something which seems to suck pretty badly in many places.

 

So no, I don't like censoring, I sucks. It benefits no one. Go fuck your selfs.

[starlessn1ght]

Sex and porn never hurt nobody. 

 

Really? What about the hundreds of divorces that happened because of it (directly or indirectly)? What about the families that it destroyed? 

[Toranth]

Sex and porn never hurt nobody.

Really? What about the hundreds of divorces that happened because of it (directly or indirectly)? What about the families that it destroyed?

I'm pretty sure that eliminating sex would have negative consequences in the long run.

[Zenophilious]

For context, when I said "necessary evil", I was thinking of JAST's censorship of Shiny Days, which they reportedly did out of fear of getting themselves and their customers labeled as sex offenders.  If you don't already know what that was about, read sanahtlig's blog post about it.

 

Also, from Steam Greenlight:

 

Additionally, you agree not post any item to Greenlight that contains the following: 

• Someone else’s game, unless you have specific authorization to do so 
• 
  
• Porn, inappropriate or offensive content, warez or leaked content 
• 
  
• Cheating, hacking, game exploits 
• 
  
• Threats of violence or harassment, even as a joke 
• 
  
• Games using copyright material such as assets or intellectual property without permission from the owner 
• 
  
• Soliciting, begging, auctioning, selling, advertising, referrals racism, discrimination

 

[starlessn1ght]

I'm pretty sure that eliminating sex would have negative consequences in the long run.

 

I'm not talking about sex, but porn. Sex is something very intimate that shouldn't be that gratuitous .

[Nosebleed]

Really? What about the hundreds of divorces that happened because of it (directly or indirectly)? What about the families that it destroyed? 

If you're watching so much porn that you're negleting your family, you have a psychological dependance and need medical treatment.

 

This is like saying McDonalds is to blame because you're fat since you eat there everyday.

[atorq]

Really? What about the hundreds of divorces that happened because of it (directly or indirectly)? What about the families that it destroyed? 

 

Take away the sex and the problem remains. It's like the saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people", while guns sure do make it easier, taking away the guns won't stop the killing.

[Soulless Watcher]

Really? What about the hundreds of divorces that happened because of it (directly or indirectly)? What about the families that it destroyed? 

Ohhh my god there is soo much I can comment on, but you do realize that a family often forms as a result of sex.

 

Also, if your marriage is soo unstable that just cause one of the pair wanks off, it ends the marriage.... it wasn't going to last very long anyways.

[starlessn1ght]

Take away the sex and the problem remains. It's like the saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people", while guns sure do make it easier, taking away the guns won't stop the killing.

 

And how. I know it doesn't take out the problem, but it would certainly decrease it.

[atorq]

I'm not talking about sex, but porn. Sex is something very intimate that shouldn't be that gratuitous .

 

And when has porn ruined marriages and families exactly?

[Zenophilious]

Really? What about the hundreds of divorces that happened because of it (directly or indirectly)? What about the families that it destroyed? 

Porn is neither good nor bad, and its effects vary person to person.  I don't think that anyone can conclusively prove that porn is harmful.  Like guns, the way you use it can have good effects or bad effects, but it's not inherently bad.

[Heizei_koukousei]

Let's not misinterpret my post. By no means am I making a stance one way or the other, I'm just saying a guy in a suit at Steam's corporate office would definitely say that sex is worse than killing. That doesn't mean its true, it just reflects the fact the people are more desensitized to death than they are to sex

[Satsuki]

Censor only what need to be censored. I'm cool with censoring genitals and such. Just don't do it to the point of MoeNovel, it's retarded.

Beneficial? Yes. Everyone knows how Western market treats VN. For example, if Steam allows a 18+ VN goes on their store, it's a guarantee that they will be bashed by all kind of media, lead to a bunch of other problems.

And regardless of those "younger caucasian males", H is still a 18+ material. And you don't leave those thing lying around uncensored in a place where even underage kids can come in.

[atorq]

And how. I know it doesn't take out the problem, but it would certainly decrease it.

 

Don't be to sure about that. Where I live the gun laws are quite strict but we still have quite a lot of violence.

[starlessn1ght]

Ohhh my god there is soo much I can comment on, but you do realize that a family requires sex to form in the first place.( I'm talking about parents producing children you sick fucks  )

 

Also, if your marriage is soo unstable that just cause one of the pair wanks off ends the marriage.... it wasn't going to last very long anyways.

 

Again, it's not about sex with the spouse, but about the PORN. 

 

And it's not like it's something weak, just because of that. I'd agree if it was just one time, but pornography is vicious. And it leads to sex outside the marriage, which would cause divorce.

[sanahtlig]

And [porn] leads to sex outside the marriage, which would cause divorce.

I'd like to see the evidence behind this statement.

[starlessn1ght]

Don't be to sure about that. Where I live the gun laws are quite strict but we still have quite a lot of violence.

[Zenophilious]

Just a warning, guys, no more debate on whether or not porn is bad, that is derailing.  It will result in your posts getting hidden.  This discussion is about censorship as a whole, not just about the censorship of h-scenes.

[atorq]

Let's not misinterpret my post. By no means am I making a stance one way or the other, I'm just saying a guy in a suit at Steam's corporate office would definitely say that sex is worse than killing. That doesn't mean its true, it just reflects the fact the people are more desensitized to death than they are to sex