Nasu-verse Discussion(spoilers to everything Nasu-verse related)

[Clephas]

Hmmm.... oh well

[Kosakyun]

Well saber did say this.

[hsmsful]

First of all, I don't know if there's another post regarding a discussion about f/sn but I didn't find one. 

Now my purpose of such thread is to talk about fate/stay night.. obviously but I will rather talk about incomprehensible stuff in the vn rather than the general vn. Especially since I finished the vn a month ago but was too lazy to make such a thread. Oh and I haven't read fate/hollow atarxia yet.

 

 

 

Fate/stay night was introduced to me by a fanboy thinking of it as one of the few shounen vns in the world which actually doesn't have any plotholes and have everything in it explained so I was like ok I will try it and see. And yet what I saw was still not that perfect thing he described to me but it's still a masterpiece. Now for the things that at least my mind couldn't comprehend:

 

 

1-In Fate's route: Saber x Berserker fight:

Regarding this fight, there was an error which I don't know if it was a mathematical error on type moon's part or the translator's par. They said that archer took half of berserker's lives (aka 6) and that Rin took 1, therefore that's 7 lives out of 12 making the left 5. However when Berserker was defeated, it was said that caliburn took "7" lives which is totally wrong. 

 

2-In fate's route: Saber x Berserker fight :

as stated by Archer, Rin and Emiya Shirou: an imitation can never reach the power of the main. In other words that caliburn even if it was projected by archer himself, it won't have reached the power of the true Caliburn since in the end it's a mere imitation. And of course it's weaker than Excalibur (RIGHT? one of them is Saber's old sword and the other is a holy sword forged in the lake... bla bla bla) and yet it was able to take 7 of his lives. If you don't choose to stop Saber, Saber would shoot a rather incomplete excalibur that won't even take one life (what I understood at least) from Berserker's lives. If Caliburn which was an imitation and weaker than excalibur was able to take 7 lives, then what happens when saber's shoots the rather incomplete excalibur doesn't make sense unless it was not  shot in the first place and I misinterpreted it. Even if that is the case, a mere imitation by Shirou who has so much little mana can't take out all these lives even with whatever magic power Saber had. This made me look at this incident as a rather :that's how it is , deal with it (aka an asspull but I might be hated for saying such thing about something in f/sn >.> )

 

3-In unlimited blade work's route: Lancer vs Archer

Lancer's gae bolg can't be blocked but yet it was blocked by rho aias. How? isn't it a reversible cause and effect where the effect will happen no matter what the cause is, the effect here is destroying the opponent's heart) and yet it was deflected by rho aias after penetrating 6 layers (I think). I can deal with it but it just doesn't make sense. Won't gae bolg's effect make it hit archer's heart without even needing to go through the layers of rho aias and being deflected as a normal noble phantasm thrown and exhausted till it ran out of magical power?

 

4-In unlimited blade work's route: Archer's appearance to save the day:

We did see with our own eyes Archer being butchered by gilgamesh's noble phantasms so he should be dead(even if he had Rin by his side, these were vital blows). In addition to that it was said that according to his mana and class descriptions aka independent action, he can survive without a master for a while but how long? I think it was said to be a day or two. Anyways when he kidnapped Rin, he said that he was going to vanish soon , then he had his battle with shirou which should have exhausted him and took out lots of his mana and even if he did survive the clash with gilgamesh, his mana should have been exhausted much much more since he healed the wounds done by noble phantasms  and yet hours (an almost day later) we find him coming in protecting shirou twice (once by projecting rho aias to protect shirou from enma elish and then coming when shirou was being pulled in by gilgamesh into the grail) and even after all that, go and save Rin too and then finally vanish? What? TBH I was sitting in my seat looking at the screen and feeling like "I call bs" . 

 

I don't think there are other things that stood out and were incomprehensible for me in the vn. And I did go to the wiki before does but it didn't help much.  And I just want to add this but what I said doesn't subtract anything from the vn, it's still a masterpiece and one of the best vns I read (although I doubt I have read enough vns to know what exactly I can call a masterpiece) even though I so fucking hate nasu's way of telling the story and his over descriptive way of writing which made me drop it and pick it up again multiple times but that's subjective as hell and nasu is still a very good writer.  

 

Can I say smth at the end of this wall of text (sorry if it's too long): Nasu should never write h-scenes

[firecat]

1 - i believed someone had fight Berserker that took the remaining life but at the same time Berserker could had the ability to recover some lives so i dont know its a mystery.

 

2 - blame Archer he doesn't even know his own powers.

 

3 - Archer did say that Lanser needs to hit 100% precise on the heart so in theory, Archer must not move, not block and not counter it, to make it work. I believed he blocked so he can break the witch's spell but saw that Lancer's gae bolg even more power than he thought so at the last second he moved.

 

4 - that is BS

[Guest Gurluas]

1. Caliburn would have taken seven lives. Since Beserker didn't have seven lives left, he died.

2. Actually it was implied that Caliburn was superior to Excalibur in Fate, but was lost.

3. Rho Aias is not just a shield, it is able to partially block reality altering noble phantasms. Hence why Gae Bolg was nearly blocked. But Gae Bolg is not like Fragarach, where it hits before the enemy's effect. If you have enough luck and a strong enough defense, it's possible to block or evade Gae Bolg.

4. The only explanation I can see, is that Archer lied about his status or did not know his own strength. I admit, this one is more iffy than the others.

[Kosakyun]

I cannot testify to how true Gurluas' answer in #2 is, but his answer in #1 and #3 is generally correct. I always believed that Caliburn was said to be more of an ornament for a king rather than a sword. I don't remember it being said that it's stronger than Excalibur.

 

About #4, well, I can't say anything about that. I can only believe that he managed to survive through some method that god knows what. I'll just say that it was needed for the plot to advance.

[madvanced]

I cannot testify to how true Gurluas' answer in #2 is, but his answer in #1 and #3 is generally correct. I always believed that Caliburn was said to be more of an ornament for a king rather than a sword. I don't remember it being said that it's stronger than Excalibur.

 

About #4, well, I can't say anything about that. I can only believe that he managed to survive through some method that god knows what. I'll just say that it was needed for the plot to advance.

Gurla is right to a point in #2. Caliburn as a magical weapon is superior to Excalibur, however in normal fighting Excalibur should be superior since Caliburn is more of a ornament sword, as such it lost some of it's fighting capabilities. But when used with magic it is much superior to excalibur.

 

Also on the 4th most of the stuff isn't being projected but rather being taken out of UBW(the reality marble) it is quite different than "simple" projection and the mana requirements are totally different, since it's a spell that is part of Archer's very being. So while a lot of his mana was depleted, it was not as much as you think.

 

Also if he really wanted to thin out his mana reserves to be able to survive more time it's completely possible. The only more BS part is after Gilgamesh's fight with him, however there is one thing we must not forget, servants surpass human common  sense, they are magical beings first and foremost. It's kind of like Ge Bolg should've killed Saber by it's magical laws, but due to Saber's stats she was able to avoid death.

[Kosakyun]

Thanks for that, mad. Never knew Caliburn had superior magical properties. Was it ever explained why?

[hsmsful]

1-so it's probably a mistake on the fan translation part , oh well that's probably to be expected.

 

2-Even if caliburn is actually stronger than fate, a mere immitation by an amateur with the magical power of shirou shouldn't be able to take even one life. Although since it was held by its original holder and with her magical power, that should be different.

 

3-welp I don't like the idea of how they made the gae bolg unblockable since it is a cursed lance that reverses cause and effect and I mean that's the strongest noble phantasm, right? and then it gets blocked : < so I guess in the end Archer did have so much luck heh

 

4-"servants surpass human common sense" mad-senpai plz , it was said that even if they are strong magical beings, they will still be dead if they receive a vital blow and if he survived for like a short time like lancer, it would be ok. But he survived for a hell lot of time but maybe they would just say that's cuz of independent action , I dunno , I just don't like it but anyways the plot wouldn't have advanced otherwise so we can justify it I guess? (Also yes he does pull them out of his reality marble but that doesn't mean he doesn't use mana at all)

[Kosakyun]

1 - You could also have mistaken it for something else, onii-sama.

2 - I don't think Shirou's projections are just mere imitations though. If you could remember, his projections of, say, Avalon and Excalibur were very powerful as well. It's because it's not mere projection. Rather, it's something like making whatever's in your mind reality, which is the very definition of his magic, iirc. It's stronger than projection.

3 - It's not the strongest Noble Phantasm. Luck is indeed the most important factor there.

4 - He barely uses mana though. He has ascended into a Servant, so you could say that his mana capacity is greater than that of an average human. If you can remember, Shirou sucks as a Master, and he sucks at magic. But he can pull off UBW just fine. It's because it uses up only a little amount of mana, iirc, allowing Shirou to actually conceive this reality marble of his. Making whatever's in his mind reality ---- that's his magic.

[hsmsful]

1 - You could also have mistaken it for something else, onii-sama.

2 - I don't think Shirou's projections are just mere imitations though. If you could remember, his projections of, say, Avalon and Excalibur were very powerful as well. It's because it's not mere projection. Rather, it's something like making whatever's in your mind reality, which is the very definition of his magic, iirc. It's stronger than projection.

3 - It's not the strongest Noble Phantasm. Luck is indeed the most important factor there.

4 - He barely uses mana though. He has ascended into a Servant, so you could say that his mana capacity is greater than that of an average human. If you can remember, Shirou sucks as a Master, and he sucks at magic. But he can pull off UBW just fine. It's because it uses up only a little amount of mana, iirc, allowing Shirou to actually conceive this reality marble of his. Making whatever's in his mind reality ---- that's his magic.

1-maybe~

2-idk , if I remember correctly, that's what reality marble is and he didn't know the extents of his power unless we are talking about ubw or hf. But in fate's route, he should have only been able to do the mere immitation but then again maybe : avalon being inside him,the sword being held by his original owner who has so much mana and Caliburn being that strong made them win

3-It's the strongest noble phantasm as in anti-personnel fights, I think. Maybe I am just overreacting over the reverse of cause and effect curse.

4-Shirou used much of Rin's mana to be able to pull his reality marble off

[Toranth]

2-Even if caliburn is actually stronger than fate, a mere immitation by an amateur with the magical power of shirou shouldn't be able to take even one life. Although since it was held by its original holder and with her magical power, that should be different.

In the Nasuverse, Caliburn and Excalibur are different weapons with different properties. Excalibur is the sword you would use to level a fortress - takes lots of mana, but has a very large and dramatic effect. Caliburn can't do that, but its own properties make it good at killing something magically enhanced and protected like Berserker.

Also, Shiro's imitations are not as good as the original, but within his specialty they are *nearly* perfect. Especially Caliburn - He'd been dreaming of it a lot, he was bound to Saber, and he had Avalon inside him. Remember when he fought Gilgamesh? His copies were good enough that the when they hit the originals, they destroyed each other.

Also, I'm pretty sure Excalibur's attack in the bad end did take away at least one of Berserker's lives. It just didn't kill him, and left Saber helpless.

 

3-welp I don't like the idea of how they made the gae bolg unblockable since it is a cursed lance that reverses cause and effect and I mean that's the strongest noble phantasm, right? and then it gets blocked : < so I guess in the end Archer did have so much luck heh

In the Nasuverse, lots of magic works on 'concepts'. In Fate, with Servants and their weapons or abilities, this is closely bound to their legend.

Gae Bolg's legend is of a spear that never misses and can pierce any defense.

Rho Aias's legend is of a shield that can block any attack, and cannot be pierced by any weapon.

Obviously, these cannot both be true. Irresistible Force vs Immovable Object is a paradox. So, it gets resolved through a comparison of stuff like the nature of the Noble Phantasms, the amount of mana, and the strength of the legends. In this exact case, Nasu decided that Rho Aias was the more powerful, and thus was able to prevent Lancer's attack from killing Archer. Is it BS? Well, sort of - Nasu could have decided the other way, and no one would be able to gainsay him. However, it fits with the rules of the universe.

In other words, all of Nasu's mythology in Fate works with the way things happen. There's a lot that is arbitrary, but it has to be to tell a story. Don't think about it so much as a cRPG, think of it more as a tabletop RPG where the DM wants to have a good story in his adventure.

[madvanced]

Rather he had Saber's sheath inside of him, that's why Caliburn's projection was near perfect, Shirou's origin is also that of the sword, you could say that it is his magus' attribute, you forgot that tidbit furu

[hsmsful]

In the Nasuverse, Caliburn and Excalibur are different weapons with different properties. Excalibur is the sword you would use to level a fortress - takes lots of mana, but has a very large and dramatic effect. Caliburn can't do that, but its own properties make it good at killing something magically enhanced and protected like Berserker.

Also, Shiro's imitations are not as good as the original, but within his specialty they are *nearly* perfect. Especially Caliburn - He'd been dreaming of it a lot, he was bound to Saber, and he had Avalon inside him. Remember when he fought Gilgamesh? His copies were good enough that the when they hit the originals, they destroyed each other.

Also, I'm pretty sure Excalibur's attack in the bad end did take away at least one of Berserker's lives. It just didn't kill him, and left Saber helpless.

 

In the Nasuverse, lots of magic works on 'concepts'. In Fate, with Servants and their weapons or abilities, this is closely bound to their legend.

Gae Bolg's legend is of a spear that never misses and can pierce any defense.

Rho Aias's legend is of a shield that can block any attack, and cannot be pierced by any weapon.

Obviously, these cannot both be true. Irresistible Force vs Immovable Object is a paradox. So, it gets resolved through a comparison of stuff like the nature of the Noble Phantasms, the amount of mana, and the strength of the legends. In this exact case, Nasu decided that Rho Aias was the more powerful, and thus was able to prevent Lancer's attack from killing Archer. Is it BS? Well, sort of - Nasu could have decided the other way, and no one would be able to gainsay him. However, it fits with the rules of the universe.

In other words, all of Nasu's mythology in Fate works with the way things happen. There's a lot that is arbitrary, but it has to be to tell a story. Don't think about it so much as a cRPG, think of it more as a tabletop RPG where the DM wants to have a good story in his adventure.